If you got to design cars for SIR......

[Far Rock Depot]

what wuould you incorporate into them? How would you have them look?

length? number of doors? exterior graphics? Passenger ammentities?

Im not askin what current cars would you have run in SI. We all know many here would want anything from 32s to 68s to 160s. Im talking about from scratch. Heres what i would do:

 

75ft long cars in married pairs. front end and side destination signs. 4 doors per side. i would incorporate the interior scheme of an M7 with a modified seating arrangment of the current 44s. the exterior would of course be stainless steel with a blue belt as thin as a 142 but it would be across the center of the car horizontally fading towards each end. the front will resemble the 160s exept it would fade down from black to blue. i wouls have them under contract S-1

 

any ideas?

[LRG]

Slants! That's it, even the fleet of subway cars that's on their way in the next few years should be slants. Heck, they should make crossing between the cars legal again, except that 1: It should not be recommended while they're moving, and 2: they should be given those safety barriers like what the LIRR cars have. And I'd give them an unpolarized railfan window, so riders can still have the comfort of a full-width cab, and the railfans have a clear view of the tracks.

[Far Rock Depot]

lrg, i knew you would like slants! LOL i can see slants in SIR!. crashworthy, distinctive, and since it doesnt run underground, a slight areodynamic factor!

Nice tough with the detail inbetween cars on the "No 2" end like on the M sets. i would like to see that too. and gives it a little "commuter railroad" feel to it!

 

what about seating? I can see Upholstered seats like on the newer buses.

[LRG]

lrg, i knew you would like slants! LOL i can see slants in SIR!. crashworthy, distinctive, and since it doesnt run underground, a slight areodynamic factor!

Nice tough with the detail inbetween cars on the "No 2" end like on the M sets. i would like to see that too. and gives it a little "commuter railroad" feel to it!

 

what about seating? I can see Upholstered seats like on the newer buses.

 

I'd say that transverse seating would be another necessity as well to improve seating. And the R130s have bench seating instead of those bucket seats (R44-68, and R131) or those flat seats like the NTTs have, which the newer cars could have which would be much more favorable for the passengers.

[SevenEleven]

I would give them single cars with pretty much everything LRG described. Give the folks a comfortable ride but with all of the features that the subways has.

[St Louis Car 09]

My specs would include...

 

AC traction motors 480v

 

New design trucks with airbag suspension to enhance the ride over the rocky roadbed which already make for a smooth quiet ride

 

CBTC

 

Halogen headlamps

 

I sure some of this stuff is FRA material;)

[engineerboy6561]

I would go with 75ft cars with four doors per car, mostly in 4-car sets with 5-10 married pairs for extra service. The cars themselves would be essentially similar to updated versions of R44/R46 style cars. LED full-width destination signs on the front and side, capable of displaying in multiple colors. The cars would be stainless steel with black bonnets and a thick, deep blue band running all the way around the car. On the inside, I would go with carpeted flooring and wood trim over the walls where the tacky wallpaper is on those cars now. For seats, I would have upholstered suburban-style plush seats similar to those on the old Orion V or RTS suburbans. Seating would be done with a set of four seats , then a transverse with two seats facing forward and two facing backward, then three seats. The #2 end of each car would have two seats one either side, while the #1 end of the B car would have four seats and the #1 A car would have two seats on each side that folded up for wheelchairs and a full-width cab. Lighting would be dimmable, but at its brightest be the same as R142/142A/160 lighting, and luggage racks would be included along the sides of the car above the doors. I would include air-ride suspension and CBTC, and make provisions for a FIND system in the event that these cars made it into the subway proper.

[St Louis Car 09]

 

I would go with 75ft cars with four doors per car, mostly in 4-car sets with 5-10 married pairs for extra service. The cars themselves would be essentially similar to updated versions of R44/R46 style cars. LED full-width destination signs on the front and side, capable of displaying in multiple colors. The cars would be stainless steel with black bonnets and a thick, deep blue band running all the way around the car. On the inside, I would go with carpeted flooring and wood trim over the walls where the tacky wallpaper is on those cars now. For seats, I would have upholstered suburban-style plush seats similar to those on the old Orion V or RTS suburbans. Seating would be done with a set of four seats , then a transverse with two seats facing forward and two facing backward, then three seats. The #2 end of each car would have two seats one either side, while the #1 end of the B car would have four seats and the #1 A car would have two seats on each side that folded up for wheelchairs and a full-width cab. Lighting would be dimmable, but at its brightest be the same as R142/142A/160 lighting, and luggage racks would be included along the sides of the car above the doors. I would include air-ride suspension and CBTC, and make provisions for a FIND system in the event that these cars made it into the subway proper.

I like the idea of dimmer light switches and plush seats,but to have the seats in that configuration would require to remove 2 door entrances only leaving 2 like LIRR and MNRR and believe it or not around the time of the R-44s arrival around 1972 to 73 the TA actually experimented with carpeting but of course in a city like nyc who eat on the go,lets just say it didnt work very well.

[bveguy]

I'd have it look like the R110B on the outside, make it all single sets with half width cabs for our RFW. And give it the M7's propulsion (some kind of GE propulsion for the FRA). The interior I would like it to be a 75 footer with bucket seats and another RFW on the side opposite the cab window with a seat there if we don't want to stand up.

[MAA89]

Is there really a point in discussing the future of the SIR? It is apparent that SIR will get whatever car replaces the R-44s about 8 years from now, with modifications to meet FRA regulations.

 

With low ridership and only 16% farebox recovery of costs, SIR hardly deserves special consideration. I am sorry about being so harsh, but Staten Islanders get two free transfers for each swipe of the MetroCard (one from a bus to the SIR or vice versa, and one in Manhattan to a bus or subway, or when entering the SIR from the SI Ferry after having used a bus or subway in Manhattan). This and the fact that there is no fare for intra-island travel results in pitiful farebox recovery rate. Staten Islanders can easily spend $0 on transit every year if they take the SIR, exit early or jump the turnstiles at St George or Stapleton, take the free ferry and walk to their destination in Manhattan. SIR riders don't exactly deserve any choice as to what sort of train they want to ride in, when everyone else in New York subsidizes their commute.

 

If anything, the SIR should be replaced with a bus or light rail service with on board payment of fares, and only one free transfer. If Staten Islanders want a multi-part commute (SI bus, SIR, SI Ferry and bus or subway in Manhattan) without paying $4.50 each way, they should purchase Unlimited Ride MetroCards like the rest of us.

 

If the SIR must be kept on life support, they might as well do it by keeping the R44s as long as possible, and later replacing them with whatever replaces the R44s. (It would, I suppose, not be possible to retrofit R46s to meet FRA standards, so replacing them with R46s is not an option).

 

EDIT: The only reason I wouldn't advocate a fare on the SI Ferry is that it serves as a valuable tourist attraction, whose spending on other goods and services buoys the city economy. Otherwise, Staten Islanders should have had to pay for it too.

[Grand Concourse]

While you bring up a good point about tourism, is dropping a quarter or 2 really that big a dent on a person's wallet for a 30min ferry ride?

[MAA89]

While you bring up a good point about tourism, is dropping a quarter or 2 really that big a dent on a person's wallet for a 30min ferry ride?

 

No it isn't. The ferry has two of the cleanest, most well-maintained terminals of any transportation link I have ever seen (and I have seen a few). I would love to be able to get to my train's terminal, take a leak at a clean restroom, get a drink from the fountains, buy a newspaper and a snack at one of the stores and sit on a clean, stone bench while waiting for a picturesque journey across the harbor. The fact that Staten Islanders get all this subsidized by our tax dollars makes me feel sad. All I ever hear from Staten Islanders (I was reading a NY Times series on commuting in NYC a few days back) is how long the commute takes, whether by express bus or ferry+bus+rail, but they all seemed to ignore that a person living in the Rockaways and working in Midtown Manhattan, or living in the north of the Bronx (say, Wakefield) and working in Brooklyn, has an equally long commute without the benefits of the ferry (for those who use it) described above. Sometimes I think NYC should just have let Staten Island secede and saved a bushel on how much the city spends to provide services to what is essentially a suburban bedroom community like many in New Jersey, Westchester or Long Island.

[Bill444616]

Would have to go with a 60 ft car there are stations along the south shore that unless you expand them or rebuild them would not be able to handle them ex, the Atlantic ave station is now only can 1 car and thay only open 1 door with the expansions of the housing out there it may be needed to expand the station.Another spot is the station that only allows the front 3 cars southbound to open. if you get the bigger cars it will be necessary to expand the 2 stations. there was a rumor that thay were going to move the Atlantic station up further north from its current location but i don't know if it was true or not. That was depending on the capital program money and in these hard times not likely to happen.

[MAA89]

Would have to go with a 60 ft car there are stations along the south shore that unless you expand them or rebuild them would not be able to handle them ex, the Atlantic ave station is now only can 1 car and thay only open 1 door with the expansions of the housing out there it may be needed to expand the station.Another spot is the station that only allows the front 3 cars southbound to open. if you get the bigger cars it will be necessary to expand the 2 stations. there was a rumor that thay were going to move the Atlantic station up further north from its current location but i don't know if it was true or not. That was depending on the capital program money and in these hard times not likely to happen.

 

They are supposed to be replacing the Atlantic and Nassau stations with a new one at Arthur Kill Road, slated to open in 2010. This will be able to handle four car trains and will not be a "flag stop" unlike the other two (i.e train stops only if there are people on the platform or if someone previously stated wanting to get off).

 

Only the first three cars' doors open at Clifton and Richmond Valley. Clifton can accommodate five 75-foot cars, but the gap between the platform and train on the rear cars (platform curves sharply) is too great. With some platform reconstruction that would not be a problem. That would leave only Richmond Valley. Since it can accommodate three 75-foot cars (225 feet-long trains), there is little to be gained by having 60-foot cars (since four 60-foot cars make a 240 ft train, which is too long to fit on the platform).

[Bill444616]

very true but doesen't the new 75 ft cars come in married pairs so there for that would be 4. 75ft cars not the 3 that your suggesting ????

[LRG]

No it isn't. The ferry has two of the cleanest, most well-maintained terminals of any transportation link I have ever seen (and I have seen a few). I would love to be able to get to my train's terminal, take a leak at a clean restroom, get a drink from the fountains, buy a newspaper and a snack at one of the stores and sit on a clean, stone bench while waiting for a picturesque journey across the harbor. The fact that Staten Islanders get all this subsidized by our tax dollars makes me feel sad. All I ever hear from Staten Islanders (I was reading a NY Times series on commuting in NYC a few days back) is how long the commute takes, whether by express bus or ferry+bus+rail, but they all seemed to ignore that a person living in the Rockaways and working in Midtown Manhattan, or living in the north of the Bronx (say, Wakefield) and working in Brooklyn, has an equally long commute without the benefits of the ferry (for those who use it) described above. Sometimes I think NYC should just have let Staten Island secede and saved a bushel on how much the city spends to provide services to what is essentially a suburban bedroom community like many in New Jersey, Westchester or Long Island.

 

This is why I strongly believe that Staten Island is being underserved greatly. If NYC cared, they would have advocated for a subway extension YEARS ago, and would have fought for it to ensure riders have a fast way to get from Staten Island to Manhattan without cutting through Brooklyn. It's really sad that Staten Islanders have to be inconvenienced this way. I'm already in my second month of College in Staten Island (I go to CSI) and the ferry ride is exhausting. This morning, the ferry was being delayed for some reason I don't know (:confused:). Staten Islanders do not deserve to be treated like this at all. I hope that whoever gets power of the city next, be it Bloomberg or Thompson, I really don't care, they attend to this problem at once.

[MAA89]

very true but doesen't the new 75 ft cars come in married pairs so there for that would be 4. 75ft cars not the 3 that your suggesting ????

 

It would have to be 4-car sets. Only the doors on the first 3 cars are opened at Clifton (I was there a few months back). As I said, the platform can accommodate 4 and even 5 cars (the SIR runs a few five-car sets during rush hours), but safety considerations force only the use of the first three cars.

 

As for Richmond Valley, I haven't been there, but once again, the SIR runs four-car sets, but the conductor only opens the doors on the first three cars (I assume there are separate controls for each car's doors in the conductor's cab).

 

In any case, most of the SIR cars are singles and not married pairs, so they could run 3-car sets (or even single cars) if they wanted to (there shouldn't be any coupling problems).

[MAA89]

This is why I strongly believe that Staten Island is being underserved greatly. If NYC cared, they would have advocated for a subway extension YEARS ago, and would have fought for it to ensure riders have a fast way to get from Staten Island to Manhattan without cutting through Brooklyn. It's really sad that Staten Islanders have to be inconvenienced this way. I'm already in my second month of College in Staten Island (I go to CSI) and the ferry ride is exhausting. This morning, the ferry was being delayed for some reason I don't know (:confused:). Staten Islanders do not deserve to be treated like this at all. I hope that whoever gets power of the city next, be it Bloomberg or Thompson, I really don't care, they attend to this problem at once.

 

I guess I was being a bit harsh. It can be hard getting around on public transport in Staten Island. I was there a couple of months ago; I got off the ferry and momentarily forgot which bus I needed to take to get to Bard Avenue on the North Shore (S40) and by the time I reached the bus bay, the bus had left and the next one would arrive after 30 minutes.

 

I thought the S53, S79 and S93 buses crossed the Verrazano-Narrows Bridge into Brooklyn; the S93 also terminating at College of Staten Island. Wouldn't you be able to connect to the from the or to get to the 86th St and transfer to a bus? The map says there will be a lot of transfers: from to at Utica (unless you take the straightaway), to the at Hoyt-Schermerhorn and to the at 4 Av-9 St. Once the Jay St-Lawrence St connection is completed, you should be able to transfer directly from the (A)/© to the . I wonder if that wouldn't be faster than getting into Manhattan and taking the ferry? (With rush hour traffic on the bridge being mostly from SI to Brooklyn, the bus ride shouldn't take long).

 

As for the ferry, I think it's great; I've never had any ferry delays, but then I don't ride it regularly. I was trying to say SI is lucky in a way to have a free ferry and free transfers from bus to SIR to ferry to Manhattan bus/subway. I know commute times are long, but Staten Islanders aren't the only New Yorkers to suffer from that. I am sorry you have had delays on the ferry, though.

 

Staten Island could do with a subway link (that it doesn't exist is something every visitor or recent transplant to NYC find surprising), but who knows how long it would take or how much it would cost? I know you have a good idea with the immersed tunnel, but I wonder why engineers wouldn't have thought of that if it was extremely feasible.

 

More innovative solutions, including light rail, perhaps via the Bayonne Bridge and into New Jersey and connecting to the PATH, and more links into Brooklyn (perhaps the subway should connect with Brooklyn instead of Manhattan) need to be thought of and implemented for Staten Islanders' commutes.

[Fan Railer]

take the PA-5, lengthen it to 75 ft add a pair of doors, upgrade traction motors to 185 hp. and cbtc. don't forget 4 car sets

[LRG]

I guess I was being a bit harsh. It can be hard getting around on public transport in Staten Island. I was there a couple of months ago; I got off the ferry and momentarily forgot which bus I needed to take to get to Bard Avenue on the North Shore (S40) and by the time I reached the bus bay, the bus had left and the next one would arrive after 30 minutes.

 

Bus service is not so bad at all. It's just the lack of subway service that gets me uneasy. As a railfan, I like the Staten Island Railway, as it is a very scenic route and is rather enjoyable, even on the R44s over there. I wonder what will happen when the North Shore Line is brought back to its original state.

 

I thought the S53, S79 and S93 buses crossed the Verrazano-Narrows Bridge into Brooklyn; the S93 also terminating at College of Staten Island. Wouldn't you be able to connect to the from the or to get to the 86th St and transfer to a bus? The map says there will be a lot of transfers: from to at Utica (unless you take the straightaway), to the at Hoyt-Schermerhorn and to the at 4 Av-9 St. Once the Jay St-Lawrence St connection is completed, you should be able to transfer directly from the (A)/© to the . I wonder if that wouldn't be faster than getting into Manhattan and taking the ferry? (With rush hour traffic on the bridge being mostly from SI to Brooklyn, the bus ride shouldn't take long).

 

That is correct, the S53, 79 and 93 are the only three buses that serve Staten Island and Brooklyn. What I do Saturday and Sunday mornings is take the or (whichever comes first) to Broadway-Nassau Street and then take the or to Bowling Green. However, since I'm outside on Saturday mornings at 6 in the morning, I skate from Fulton Street to the ferry, which only takes five minutes. Then I take the ferry and take the S62 to the college and I'm there by 7:30. Sundays, I get the 11:30 ferry and get to the college at 12:30, except I take the S61 because there is a back exit for the school which is open at the time, which saves me time getting to my class than the Victory Boulevard exit. When the transfer opens, I can take the or the to Jay Street, take the to Whitehall and I'm at the ferry. So this would be faster getting to Manhattan then just taking the or the and then taking the or .

 

As for the ferry, I think it's great; I've never had any ferry delays, but then I don't ride it regularly. I was trying to say SI is lucky in a way to have a free ferry and free transfers from bus to SIR to ferry to Manhattan bus/subway. I know commute times are long, but Staten Islanders aren't the only New Yorkers to suffer from that. I am sorry you have had delays on the ferry, though.

 

You have to be real patient to take the ferry. Luckily, I've got to know a few people from my classes that take the ferry with me and we let the time pass us by. The delay yesterday got me real mad because my friend and I got to school by 1:15, half an hour late because of the ferry and we had to take the 12:30 bus.

 

Staten Island could do with a subway link (that it doesn't exist is something every visitor or recent transplant to NYC find surprising), but who knows how long it would take or how much it would cost? I know you have a good idea with the immersed tunnel, but I wonder why engineers wouldn't have thought of that if it was extremely feasible.

 

That's how the 63rd Street tunnel was built. To an extent, I really doubt Staten Islanders care that much for it because they've never pushed for it (or that's the way it seems). maybe I'm just saying that because there needs to be a faster way my friends and myself to get to school.

 

More innovative solutions, including light rail, perhaps via the Bayonne Bridge and into New Jersey and connecting to the PATH, and more links into Brooklyn (perhaps the subway should connect with Brooklyn instead of Manhattan) need to be thought of and implemented for Staten Islanders' commutes.

 

Agreed.

 

All in all, whoever becomes mayor next, they need to realize that Staten Island is a part of New York City too. They're just as important as the other four boroughs.

[MAA89]

Bus service is not so bad at all. It's just the lack of subway service that gets me uneasy. As a railfan, I like the Staten Island Railway, as it is a very scenic route and is rather enjoyable, even on the R44s over there. I wonder what will happen when the North Shore Line is brought back to its original state.

 

The SIR goes through a nice route, but the ride is bumpy and I feel unsafe at the stations; there are no turnstiles and no station agent at most of them, so at night, especially (with the one-hour intervals), it's not too good. You can probably tell from my other posts that I am not easily perturbed by the things that bother other people, but I take exception to the SIR

 

That is correct, the S53, 79 and 93 are the only three buses that serve Staten Island and Brooklyn. What I do Saturday and Sunday mornings is take the or (whichever comes first) to Broadway-Nassau Street and then take the or to Bowling Green. However, since I'm outside on Saturday mornings at 6 in the morning, I skate from Fulton Street to the ferry, which only takes five minutes. Then I take the ferry and take the S62 to the college and I'm there by 7:30. Sundays, I get the 11:30 ferry and get to the college at 12:30, except I take the S61 because there is a back exit for the school which is open at the time, which saves me time getting to my class than the Victory Boulevard exit. When the transfer opens, I can take the or the to Jay Street, take the to Whitehall and I'm at the ferry. So this would be faster getting to Manhattan then just taking the or the and then taking the or .

 

That is one long commute. Maybe you should consider getting an apartment in Staten Island or closer to the Verrazano bridge in Brooklyn. Anyway, the Jay-Lawrence transfer should make your life easier.

 

That's how the 63rd Street tunnel was built. To an extent, I really doubt Staten Islanders care that much for it because they've never pushed for it (or that's the way it seems). maybe I'm just saying that because there needs to be a faster way my friends and myself to get to school.

 

I don't know the statistical breakdown, but I would venture to guess a lot of Staten Islanders drive to work, either over the Verrazano and via Brooklyn or over Bayonne and through New Jersey. I don't think there is enough push or political will in building a subway to Staten Island.

 

All in all, whoever becomes mayor next, they need to realize that Staten Island is a part of New York City too. They're just as important as the other four boroughs.

 

Maybe the state should be doing more too. The is a state agency, and any improvement in subway/light rail would have to be approved at the state level (and probably require federal funding). Once again, being largely Republican, a lot of Staten Islanders would rather the federal/state government stayed out of their island. Commuters from Brooklyn to SI unfortunately represent a small minority.

[LRG]

The SIR goes through a nice route, but the ride is bumpy and I feel unsafe at the stations; there are no turnstiles and no station agent at most of them, so at night, especially (with the one-hour intervals), it's not too good. You can probably tell from my other posts that I am not easily perturbed by the things that bother other people, but I take exception to the SIR

 

I agree with you here. It's like a typical railroad, LIRR and MNRR trains probably operate like this as well. I think they do, but not too sure.

 

That is one long commute. Maybe you should consider getting an apartment in Staten Island or closer to the Verrazano bridge in Brooklyn. Anyway, the Jay-Lawrence transfer should make your life easier.

 

It takes me 1.5 to 2 hours to get to school. As for getting my own place, I really I wish I had the money to move out! If I had the money, I would definitely move, without consideration! It doesn't stop me from looking on CraigsList every once in a while to see what's available.

I really do want my own place though, possibly get a studio someplace in Brooklyn. I don't plan on being a permanent Staten Island resident, I'm only going there for school. But indeed, the Jay Street transfer should definitely make my life easier but it'll still take me 1.5 hours to get to school. The ferry ride and the S62 ride is the issue because that contributes to the commute (it totals to an hour). My friend lives in Manhattan and all she has to do is take the from 1st Avenue to Union Square and take the , or to Lower Manhattan. We go to school together but she doesn't lose as much sleep as I do, even if by 10-15 minutes.

 

I don't know the statistical breakdown, but I would venture to guess a lot of Staten Islanders drive to work, either over the Verrazano and via Brooklyn or over Bayonne and through New Jersey. I don't think there is enough push or political will in building a subway to Staten Island.

 

Wow, not even an extension?

It must be because the there is only one line that serves the borough, though of course, it always started out tike that when the IRT built the first subway in Manhattan and into Brooklyn, and later into the Bronx.

 

Maybe the state should be doing more too. The is a state agency, and any improvement in subway/light rail would have to be approved at the state level (and probably require federal funding). Once again, being largely Republican, a lot of Staten Islanders would rather the federal/state government stayed out of their island. Commuters from Brooklyn to SI unfortunately represent a small minority.

 

That would include me as the minority since I live in Brooklyn. But I don't know why Staten Islanders would disallow state interference when they're trying to give them benefits. It really makes the least of sense.

[MAA89]

It takes me 1.5 to 2 hours to get to school. As for getting my own place, I really I wish I had the money to move out! If I had the money, I would definitely move, without consideration! It doesn't stop me from looking on CraigsList every once in a while to see what's available.

I really do want my own place though, possibly get a studio someplace in Brooklyn. I don't plan on being a permanent Staten Island resident, I'm only going there for school. But indeed, the Jay Street transfer should definitely make my life easier but it'll still take me 1.5 hours to get to school. The ferry ride and the S62 ride is the issue because that contributes to the commute (it totals to an hour). My friend lives in Manhattan and all she has to do is take the from 1st Avenue to Union Square and take the , or to Lower Manhattan. We go to school together but she doesn't lose as much sleep as I do, even if by 10-15 minutes.

 

I think your friend's experience shows how inaccessible Staten Island is: even for someone who lives in Lower Manhattan, the ferry (30 minutes) and the bus (30-35 minutes) is unavoidable (I am sure the ride from Utica Avenue to Broadway-Nassau is no more than 16 minutes, and if a transfer was made at Jay St to the , it wouldn't take much longer than 17-18 minutes to get to the ferry terminal).

 

A subway extension from South Ferry, Manhattan to Staten Island would take about 22-23 minutes off the ferry ride. I most whole-heartedly support extending the or resurrecting the for this purpose. The problem is one of intra-island mass transit in Staten Island.

 

Staten Island, at 58 square miles, is way larger than Manhattan (23 sq mi), somewhat larger than the Bronx (42 sq mi) and not much smaller than Brooklyn (71 sq mi), and is actually as large or larger than the 22 smallest countries and territories listed on Wikipedia. An island that size would need a subway network at least as dense as the Bronx's (6 IRT lines plus the () in order to cover all areas and let everyone be within 10 minutes walk of a station. Obviously, building one or two subway lines will not serve every place, and it would be a matter of debate where this line should go. I suppose one could argue for a line that starts on the North Shore, goes through College of Staten Island, the Staten Island Mall, and ends at Eltingville Transit Center, but then there will be rival claims to the route.

 

Also, being nearly the size of Brooklyn, but having just 450,000 people, gives SI a really low population density by NYC standards, so there will be questions of whether a subway is justified at all, even if the extension of the IRT West Side (or the ) to the northern tip of the island is made. This is why SI doesn't really have a heavy rail line other than the SIR right now and most intra-island travel is by buses (and personal automobiles).

 

Of course, space being at a premium in NYC, if you build it, they will come, and if a subway were to be built, more people would move to Staten Island, much like Queens between the 1915 (start of the ) and 1956 (IND Rockaway Line). This is where the present residents would object and NIMBYism will rule the day. I just do not see how opposition to a subway network and its attendant "evils" could be overcome, especially given SI's demographics and political leanings.

 

I think that Staten Island is prime territory for investment in light rail, as this would provide additional coverage to areas underserved by bus or SIR. Whether this will shorten the commute to/from Manhattan is unclear. However, if light rail and bus networks were allowed to overlap, one could serve as an express option (making fewer stops, only at important locations, e.g. CSI, SI Mall) while the other made local stops, much improvement in transit times could be made (passengers at 'local' stops could transfer to the other transportation option at a major stop if they wanted a faster ride). The alternative would be some sort of intra-Staten Island express bus or BRT (like the Bx12 Select Bus Service). This would also improve intra-island travel times if allowed to coexist with the existing bus network.

 

Thus, the changes I would like to see for SI are:

 

1) Extension of one subway line (maybe the or the ) to the island, terminating perhaps at St George, since the rail-handling infrastructure already exists.

 

2) Implementation of light rail or Bus Rapid Transit along important corridors, overlapping with present bus service, making stops at important commercial or educational facilities' locations only.

 

Since light-rail has already been proposed for the North and West Shores, it would simply mean an extension of a current project to expand the network to all parts of the island. The reduced expenditure compared to a subway network will also be a favorable factor, especially in the current economic climate. If at least some of SI's automobile commuters can be persuaded to use light-rail/BRT, then the project should be a financial success as well. If further funding is required, Staten Island ferry passengers can be charged a fare since, if the subway was extended, it would not be essential to use the ferry anymore.

 

Unfortunately, by the time any of this can happen (if ever), you won't be in college anymore. Still, it would serve future Staten Island residents/visitors well, and one can only hope the NYC start to respect its "forgotten" borough some more.

[LRG]

I think your friend's experience shows how inaccessible Staten Island is: even for someone who lives in Lower Manhattan, the ferry (30 minutes) and the bus (30-35 minutes) is unavoidable (I am sure the ride from Utica Avenue to Broadway-Nassau is no more than 16 minutes, and if a transfer was made at Jay St to the , it wouldn't take much longer than 17-18 minutes to get to the ferry terminal).

 

You are exactly right that Staten Island is inaccessible. It's only accessible for those who live in Brooklyn really; if they want to see their friend or sleep over at their house, then they can take the two (three during rush hours) buses available and make their way. Even though my friend lives in Lower Manhattan, she has to lose sleep and prepare herself for a commute which will last for over an hour. Back when I was in high school, all it took me was 35-35 minutes, even when I took the long way there ( at Utica to 14th Street, then the to Bedford Avenue). Even for drivers, it's inaccessible; since cars are no longer allowed on the ferry, their only choice getting there is via Brooklyn or even New Jersey.

 

A subway extension from South Ferry, Manhattan to Staten Island would take about 22-23 minutes off the ferry ride. I most whole-heartedly support extending the or resurrecting the for this purpose. The problem is one of intra-island mass transit in Staten Island.

 

Staten Island, at 58 square miles, is way larger than Manhattan (23 sq mi), somewhat larger than the Bronx (42 sq mi) and not much smaller than Brooklyn (71 sq mi), and is actually as large or larger than the 22 smallest countries and territories listed on Wikipedia. An island that size would need a subway network at least as dense as the Bronx's (6 IRT lines plus the ) in order to cover all areas and let everyone be within 10 minutes walk of a station. Obviously, building one or two subway lines will not serve every place, and it would be a matter of debate where this line should go. I suppose one could argue for a line that starts on the North Shore, goes through College of Staten Island, the Staten Island Mall, and ends at Eltingville Transit Center, but then there will be rival claims to the route.

 

You bring up a very good point here. Indeed, the tunnel link would shave off a lot of time. But it just hit me: if such a tunnel is built between Manhattan and Staten Island, why not open it for vehicular traffic as well? Sure, mass transit riders want a direct access to Staten Island, but car owners would no longer have to drive through Brooklyn or New Jersey and waste 20 minutes of their time driving (they waste more if I'm correct, the only reasons buses zoom through fast is because they have a bus-only dedicated lane, which i think is a good move). (More on the above will continue in the next reply below this one.)

 

Also, being nearly the size of Brooklyn, but having just 450,000 people, gives SI a really low population density by NYC standards, so there will be questions of whether a subway is justified at all, even if the extension of the IRT West Side (or the ) to the northern tip of the island is made. This is why SI doesn't really have a heavy rail line other than the SIR right now and most intra-island travel is by buses (and personal automobiles).

 

Hmmm...well, hasn't the mayor advocated to the public to use mass transit? I mean, if the rest of the boroughs can do it, then why can't Staten Island? They have an abundance of bus routes to choose from to get from point A to B. They only thing they really do need cars for is for heavy grocery shopping, that's the way I see it. I've debated as to whether I want a car or not, but I really don't want to deal with the grievances of owning a car anytime soon, or at least not right now.

 

If they do decide to add train service to the island, they have several choices to choose from:

 

1. Use the regular ROW, except they convert it to subway usage, like how today's Dyre Avenue and Rockaway Lines are, as they were once owned by railroads.

2. Revamp the North Shore Line to subway use.

3. Build a subway line above Victory Boulevard.

4. Build one along Richmond Avenue.

 

Of course, SI residents may complain about loss of sleep, especially if the lines are elevated. The only lines elevated here would be the present main line and the North Shore Line. If they choose to build subway lines, I wonder how Staten Islanders would debate this (beneficial or more loss of sleep?).

 

Of course, space being at a premium in NYC, if you build it, they will come, and if a subway were to be built, more people would move to Staten Island, much like Queens between the 1915 (start of the ) and 1956 (IND Rockaway Line). This is where the present residents would object and NIMBYism will rule the day. I just do not see how opposition to a subway network and its attendant "evils" could be overcome, especially given SI's demographics and political leanings.

 

This I'm kinda worried about now, although to be honest, there's a lot of unchartered territory in Staten Island, most of which was previously owned by factory, and the buildings are just sitting there. The space issue would be solved there: tear down the old factories and build houses with the new land.

 

I think that Staten Island is prime territory for investment in light rail, as this would provide additional coverage to areas underserved by bus or SIR. Whether this will shorten the commute to/from Manhattan is unclear. However, if light rail and bus networks were allowed to overlap, one could serve as an express option (making fewer stops, only at important locations, e.g. CSI, SI Mall) while the other made local stops, much improvement in transit times could be made (passengers at 'local' stops could transfer to the other transportation option at a major stop if they wanted a faster ride). The alternative would be some sort of intra-Staten Island express bus or BRT (like the Bx12 Select Bus Service). This would also improve intra-island travel times if allowed to coexist with the existing bus network.

 

Since you mentioned this, the college has a bus that shuttles between the ferry and the college, weekdays only from about 9 a.m. to 9 p.m. It runs every 30 minutes and the trip takes about 25-30 minutes each way. The college has been talking to the MTA lately and they are advocating for the S62/92/93 buses to make a stop within the college campus (there's a building that is considered the "center" of the college, where the shuttle stops). If they did that, students would have to worry less about taking the loop bus, which circles the entire campus, and they often miss it, forcing them on a 10-minute expedition to their class.

 

Thus, the changes I would like to see for SI are:

 

1) Extension of one subway line (maybe the or the ) to the island, terminating perhaps at St George, since the rail-handling infrastructure already exists.

 

2) Implementation of light rail or Bus Rapid Transit along important corridors, overlapping with present bus service, making stops at important commercial or educational facilities' locations only.

 

I'm all in support for both of these. With case no. 1, if the MTA does decide to expand the subway into Staten Island, there'll be less need for the railway, to the point that the SIR will fold and will be consolidated into New York City Subway, which is how it should be. The subway is not really serving New York City if one borough is not included.

 

As for case no. 2, there's talk of making the S79 a +SelectBus route. I would find this another improvement, as Hylan Boulevard is a very busy corridor. I don't see how residents would dare fight off something like this, although Queens residents did fight off SBS along Merrick Boulevard for loss of parking space. I hardly see cars parked along Hylan Boulevard anyway, so I really don't know how or why would they object to something like this.

 

Since light-rail has already been proposed for the North and West Shores, it would simply mean an extension of a current project to expand the network to all parts of the island. The reduced expenditure compared to a subway network will also be a favorable factor, especially in the current economic climate. If at least some of SI's automobile commuters can be persuaded to use light-rail/BRT, then the project should be a financial success as well. If further funding is required, Staten Island ferry passengers can be charged a fare since, if the subway was extended, it would not be essential to use the ferry anymore.

 

I would see the subway lines as a means to transverse the island horizontally (the SIR and the abandoned North Shore Line do exactly just this, as the North Shore Line follows Richmond Terrace for most of its route). The light rail lines would transverse the island vertically, and use corridors such as Richmond Avenue (for access to the mall, and a stop at Victory Boulevard so CSI students could walk to the college, which would be five minutes away), Bay Street (the SIR follows Bay Street until approximately Townsend Avenue in Clifton, which is where the train stops, and this section of light rail can serve residents between Clifton and South Beach), Manor Road (beneficial for Susan Wagner H.S. students) and along the West Shore Expressway.

 

The Staten Island ferry would have to pay the ultimate price shall new forms of mass transit come to the island. I could see the ferry as a tourist attraction, but nothing else. The terminals could be converted to shopping areas, however, but as for the fate of the SI ferry, I could either see it completely gone or as a method of cruising for the sake of it (e.g. from Manhattan, circle the Island, and them back to Manhattan, and that's it. This is all I can see the ferry be used for).

 

 

Unfortunately, by the time any of this can happen (if ever), you won't be in college anymore. Still, it would serve future Staten Island residents/visitors well, and one can only hope the NYC start to respect its "forgotten" borough some more.

 

Even so, I will be railfanning the heck out of the place. Staten Island is a beautiful place to live in (ask Zach; I'm sure he would agree with me, as he's a long-time SI resident ). By the time I'm ready to move out of my parents' house and venture out, shall I find a significant other who adores the city as much as I do, her and I will be more open to choices of residency other than Brooklyn, Manhattan, Queens and the Bronx. I really would not mind moving to Staten Island at all. I'm considering it right now, and have been since I got accepted to CSI in June. All I need is the money....

[LRG]

Hey MAA89, if you want to get back to me, do so via PM. This thread really isn't about SI mass transit improvement, rather about car designs. Get back with me, this is a good discussion we're having and I don't want to disregard it.