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MotormanMike

Question for my fellow motormen

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Just a question to all my fellow motormen on this site. If it were possible to form a union just for train operators , and no longer be part of the TWU , would you support such a move , be against it , and why? In my mind I think the MTA and the state would be much more flexible and willing to work with us as a separate union. We are indispensable to this system since we actually move the trains. Although all the support positions , track workers , cleaners , station agents , RCI's , mechanics , etc. play a very important role in the system the bottom line is without people moving the trains there would be no functioning system. I think the MTA would be willing to give train operators what they want within reason , and I think the public would support that. I think where the problem with things comes in is when it comes time for the MTA and public to open the wallets to pay for non-technical (Eg RCI's) support positions , like paying a cleaner $20+ an hour. I'm not saying anybody down here doesn't deserve their pay rate or doesn't work hard , but you can understand where I'm going with the question. On the other hand , there is strength in numbers and although I'm not sure exactly on the #'s I think T/O's make up less than 10% of TWU membership. Just curious what you all would think about having our own union. Good idea or bad? :tup: or :tdown:

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Are you suggesting a UMD along the lines of the LIRR or MNRR where each craft has it's own bargaining unit ? I think you should let those engineers respond to this thread also to show the pros and cons of such an arrangement. I have an open mind on the subject myself 'cause my papers are in my pocket.

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as a potential future T/O, i feel i have a right to respond to this :cool: . yeah i think its better to leave well enough alone. LIRR and MNRR have their own unions and they get less benefits than the TWU. at the post office, the mail handlers created their own union and separated away from the biggest union, the American Postal Workers Union. in the last round of negotiations, we (National Postal Mail Handlers Union) had to create a new, lesser starting salary for new workers, hovering over the poverty level and the APWU got every single member a 1-level increase in pay (level 3 custodians became level 4, level 5 clerks became level 6). there's something to say about power in numbers

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Just a question to all my fellow motormen on this site. If it were possible to form a union just for train operators , and no longer be part of the TWU , would you support such a move , be against it , and why? In my mind I think the MTA and the state would be much more flexible and willing to work with us as a separate union. We are indispensable to this system since we actually move the trains. Although all the support positions , track workers , cleaners , station agents , RCI's , mechanics , etc. play a very important role in the system the bottom line is without people moving the trains there would be no functioning system. I think the MTA would be willing to give train operators what they want within reason , and I think the public would support that. I think where the problem with things comes in is when it comes time for the MTA and public to open the wallets to pay for non-technical (Eg RCI's) support positions , like paying a cleaner $20+ an hour. I'm not saying anybody down here doesn't deserve their pay rate or doesn't work hard , but you can understand where I'm going with the question. On the other hand , there is strength in numbers and although I'm not sure exactly on the #'s I think T/O's make up less than 10% of TWU membership. Just curious what you all would think about having our own union. Good idea or bad? :tup: or :tdown:

 

I hear what your saying Mike even though I'am not a T/O well yet anyway but let's be honest a TA T/O does not make the same amount of money as a LIRR or MNRR engineer or conductor for that matter but you make a pretty good salary most people would love to make. Average T/O salary is $65,000-$75,000 a year. If you guys were to be separate you may make more money but have less benefits and representation . Who cares what the public thinks if a cleaner makes $20 plus an hour, They work hard for their money maybe harder than me or you work to make ours. They have to come in on snow days even if it's their day off when there is 6 inches or more of snow. They have to clean urine, feces and dead rats on a daily basis. Each and every person plays a vital roll in getting the people where they need to go. Yes we understand and appreciate you move the people, but the people have to first enter a station and or be pointed in the right direction from some one to get them on your train. And they would like to wait at a clean station before boarding you train which also needs to be clean and sanitary. This whole separation talk is just what the (MTA) And Bloomberg would just love. You should be so lucky to have a job in these rough times, especially one that pays more than $50,000 a year w/o a college degree. So as a future Motorman I don't see this as a good idea

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I hear what your saying Mike even though I'am not a T/O well yet anyway but let's be honest a TA T/O does not make the same amount of money as a LIRR or MNRR engineer or conductor for that matter but you make a pretty good salary most people would love to make. Average T/O salary is $65,000-$75,000 a year. If you guys were to be separate you may make more money but have less benefits and representation . Who cares what the public thinks if a cleaner makes $20 plus an hour, They work hard for their money maybe harder than me or you work to make ours. They have to come in on snow days even if it's their day off when there is 6 inches or more of snow. They have to clean urine, feces and dead rats on a daily basis. Each and every person plays a vital roll in getting the people where they need to go. Yes we understand and appreciate you move the people, but the people have to first enter a station and or be pointed in the right direction from some one to get them on your train. And they would like to wait at a clean station before boarding you train which also needs to be clean and sanitary. This whole separation talk is just what the (MTA) And Bloomberg would just love. You should be so lucky to have a job in these rough times, especially one that pays more than $50,000 a year w/o a college degree. So as a future Motorman I don't see this as a good idea

 

 

I hear what you're saying too , and I appreciate where you're coming from , and as I said , again , I'm not knocking any titles or suggesting anyone doesn't deserve what they get. But T/O's have to come in to work too in crappy weather , in cold weather we have to stay for OT to lay up trains underground , we climb on and off trains stepping inches away from a live third rail , walk through tunnels during BIE's and layups , work around rats , etc. so I'm not crying for someone who has to scoop up a dead rat or throw some clorox on the floor of a train. And while operating a train isn't rocket science , it is work to safely operate that airbrake and make stops on the mark and smoothly enough to not throw people around , and do it close to 200 times a day on most lines. Not to mention paying attention to the signals , staying focused all day , and knowing how to overcome basic mechanical problems. And if you have to do put ins or lay-ups , it's even more. And yes , we don't have college degrees but I went to college for a year , and college has nothing to do with operating a train so it's not necessary for the job. College is very overrated and probably half the jobs that require it nowadays only do it to thin the herd of applicants , more than they require it for knowledge it gives to job applicants. College has basically turned into a 4 year party anyway , so I'm not going to feel grateful to have a job that pays above minimum wage because I don't have a degree. And nobody needs to feel lucky in this economy or any economy to have a job , because we didn't f-ck things up , the politicians did and still do. The government should be grateful there isn't rioting in the streets yet , though that's coming if the dollar continues it's epic collapse. But back to the topic at hand , I'm not suggesting we form a separate union , and I doubt it could happen unless all motormen were united for it , and I'd guess at best it would be 50-50 , but it could be something to consider. We deserve every penny we get for the job we do , and we have nothing to feel 'thankful' for , we earn our money. And as a motorman when it's time to work it's time to work. When you're on that train there's nowhere to hide , take a break , or go slack off for a few minutes , you put your game face on and go. That's how it is. Appreciate the feedback though. :)

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I have been in favor of operating personnel breaking away for many years. I know for a fact that the TA considers T/O's and B/O's underpaid but they feel that most other titles are over paid there lies the problem.

 

When it comes to contracts the TWU represents too many titles that all want and deserve different things. A very high up management official in the TA told me a few years ago that the TA would be willing to do more for certain titles like T/O but they would not want to do the same for other titles like cleaners who they say are overpaid already. This person is an honest regular guy who I believe.

 

For those that say that LIRR and MNR don't have equal or better benefits you're out of your mind they have better benefits than we do along with much higher pay, better working conditions, and the respect of there employer for the service that they provide everyday to a thankless ridership!

 

I have spoken to BLE on numerous occasions about bringing us T/O's over but I was never able to get support because alot of my coworkers are either scared of change or just to lazy to do anything.

 

And for the clerk who mentioned college, what does that have to do with anything I have a college degree and alot of my coworkers do also. If we were represented by a better stronger union that only cared about our needs instead of the needs of over 20 titles how would we be getting less representation and less benefits? We wouldn't we would be better off but all of the other titles would be worse off.

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I wouldn't support a separate union for T/O's because it would be an awkward arrangement to have the T/O in one union and the C/R in another. What I would consider is a separate, single union that entails all the operating titles (T/O, C/R, B/O and S/A); you've gotta have the S/A's in there as they directly interact with the public. Anything else and it would be half-assed.

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For those that say that LIRR and MNR don't have equal or better benefits you're out of your mind they have better benefits than we do along with much higher pay, better working conditions, and the respect of there employer for the service that they provide everyday to a thankless ridership!

 

They don't have better benefits. What they do have is higher pay, better perks (i.e overtime, etc.), and they certainly do NOT have the respect of their employer. Disciplinary actions have shot through the roof at the LIRR the past couple of years.

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I wouldn't support a separate union for T/O's because it would be an awkward arrangement to have the T/O in one union and the C/R in another. What I would consider is a separate, single union that entails all the operating titles (T/O, C/R, B/O and S/A); you've gotta have the S/A's in there as they directly interact with the public. Anything else and it would be half-assed.

 

A big reason that T/O's need to be seperate is because B/O's control every contract at our expense. They have the numbers to pass or fail a contract that they don't like that is why they never have any givebacks.

 

I could maybe see C/R's included but definetly not S/A they aren't operating personell.

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For those that say that LIRR and MNR don't have equal or better benefits you're out of your mind they have better benefits than we do along with much higher pay, better working conditions, and the respect of there employer for the service that they provide everyday to a thankless ridership!

 

 

 

Let us not forget that over the last spring MNR was fined by OSHA $300,000 for punishing workers who were hurt on the job. Additionally MNR had to payout $75,000 to each of four workers in punitive damages and $10,000 additional in compensatory damages, lost wages, interest, and legal fees. This does not include the numerous other employees that were hurt on the job that weren't represented by this lawsuit

 

If that's the respect of an employer I would hate to work for an employer that has no respect for it's employees.

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I would hate to work for an employer that has no respect for it's employees.

You would hate it, but alot of us on this board live it. We work for an employer that tells you constantly that they hate you and would like to have nothing but managers and computers running the system!

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...and college has nothing to do with operating a train so it's not necessary for the job. College is very overrated and probably half the jobs that require it nowadays only do it to thin the herd of applicants , more than they require it for knowledge it gives to job applicants. College has basically turned into a 4 year party anyway , so I'm not going to feel grateful to have a job that pays above minimum wage because I don't have a degree. And nobody needs to feel lucky in this economy or any economy to have a job , because we didn't f-ck things up , the politicians did and still do. ...

 

Wow you nailed it. Spot on and 100% the way I feel about it, as a 4 year college grad.

 

And as a motorman when it's time to work it's time to work. When you're on that train there's nowhere to hide , take a break , or go slack off for a few minutes , you put your game face on and go. That's how it is. Appreciate the feedback though. :)

 

Yup and that's what these joke office "associate" jobs have become. If I show up 2 hours late at a "firm" and blame it on a hangover, people can just say "oh gee musta been a good night...come in on time next time" no consequences. And these yuppies go through life irresponsible like that. At my current "joke job" (believe me I can't wait to get out and into (R)(T)(NYCT)), some show up late, some show up hungover, some show up late b/c of drinking, and people talk about it on the job quite a bit. Amazing that these "college grads" are so sophisticated and smart and the only thing they can do to pass the time is drink. Not that there's anything wrong with drinking but it shouldn't be the ONLY thing you do and it shouldn't mess with your work performance and if it does, you should not get a free pass.

 

That's all the lie that college is. If you're "fortunate" enough to get a degree with a decent average you go get one of these jobs where they work you to the bone but they cut you slack on drinking, and you forfeit all historically union won benefits - like the 40 hour work week (45+, often 55+, as much as 100-120 on occasion, and more than 5 days many times with no extra pay), like time and a half overtime, like hourly based pay, like the right to know where you are going to be assigned geographically with absolute certainty (if you're a T/O you know you're going to be in NYC), AND when there is nothing for you to do you sit around and do absolutely nothign but have to tell them that you have something, and if not take "training" whether you need it or not, or make something up. Now imagine if every extra extra person on the board had to send an email to the crew office with an Excel Spreadsheet "plan" each day for their day for if they don't pick up a shift where they explain how what they are doing is "productive to their own growth or their company". If it sounds ridiculous...it is. Imagine if you're a T/O and you have to take cleaner training because "you haven't taken it yet and there's nothing else productive for you to do." They also have to sign in and out each day with HR despite the fact that the building logs your arrival and departure as you clock in and out, so it's just redundant busy work to keep control of you. But yet if you're actually assigned to something and doing something productive you DONT have to sign in with your supervisor you just work... Meanwhile, these morons "love it" because "they encourage me to drink (so fun teehee) and they let me travel"...and "when we work 10+ hours a day they pay for my dinner ($15 limit though!)" - not my words believe me I hate every second and I could care less about a few drinks, that does little to compensate me for my UNPAID TIME.

 

College is the great lie and corporations and "firms" exploit that to basically make you an indentured servant when you graduate because you have to repay those damn loans you borrowed to get to college in the first place.

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They don't have better benefits. What they do have is higher pay, better perks (i.e overtime, etc.), and they certainly do NOT have the respect of their employer. Disciplinary actions have shot through the roof at the LIRR the past couple of years.

 

Honestly when it comes to the number of pensions they get, RR retirement and even their health packages they do.Disciplinary actions only shot up recently when the recession hit and when many high paid white collar jobs were loss. When this happened they and the media turned their attention to well paid blue collar jobs as to say the nerve of them to still have a job that pays extremely well while I'm out on my luck.LIRR and MNRR has been paying their employees with good salaries for years .All of the sudden when Wall Street couldn't get their way no more that's when they focus their attention down to the next tier and that's when supervisors and road foreman's started to feel pressure from their managers. Every little thing the Railroads and Transit does the media is on top of it.

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I hear what you're saying too , and I appreciate where you're coming from , and as I said , again , I'm not knocking any titles or suggesting anyone doesn't deserve what they get. But T/O's have to come in to work too in crappy weather , in cold weather we have to stay for OT to lay up trains underground , we climb on and off trains stepping inches away from a live third rail , walk through tunnels during BIE's and layups , work around rats , etc. so I'm not crying for someone who has to scoop up a dead rat or throw some clorox on the floor of a train. And while operating a train isn't rocket science , it is work to safely operate that airbrake and make stops on the mark and smoothly enough to not throw people around , and do it close to 200 times a day on most lines. Not to mention paying attention to the signals , staying focused all day , and knowing how to overcome basic mechanical problems. And if you have to do put ins or lay-ups , it's even more. And yes , we don't have college degrees but I went to college for a year , and college has nothing to do with operating a train so it's not necessary for the job. College is very overrated and probably half the jobs that require it nowadays only do it to thin the herd of applicants , more than they require it for knowledge it gives to job applicants. College has basically turned into a 4 year party anyway , so I'm not going to feel grateful to have a job that pays above minimum wage because I don't have a degree. And nobody needs to feel lucky in this economy or any economy to have a job , because we didn't f-ck things up , the politicians did and still do. The government should be grateful there isn't rioting in the streets yet , though that's coming if the dollar continues it's epic collapse. But back to the topic at hand , I'm not suggesting we form a separate union , and I doubt it could happen unless all motormen were united for it , and I'd guess at best it would be 50-50 , but it could be something to consider. We deserve every penny we get for the job we do , and we have nothing to feel 'thankful' for , we earn our money. And as a motorman when it's time to work it's time to work. When you're on that train there's nowhere to hide , take a break , or go slack off for a few minutes , you put your game face on and go. That's how it is. Appreciate the feedback though. :P

 

I never said college had anything to do with driving a train. What I meant was it's not required to get the job. Your making on average $70,000 a year look up on the DCAS website and see how many other city jobs pay alot less and require a college degree and years of work experience in that field. We all know the dangers of the JOB but the (MTA) could careless. And you can feel how you feel about having a job thru these times but If you went into your crew room tomorrow and seen a pink slip on your locker you would retract that statement. But either way not trying to debate with you bro, just giving my opinion like you asked. Hope to see you the road once I become a C/R or T/O.

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Hope to see you on the road too ... and I am happy I have the job , and I would be pissed off if I got a pink slip , but that's not going to happen. But I'm not "grateful" to have the job because the MTA is not doing me or any other motorman any favors. They need motormen , we stood in line and went through the process to get hired and passed the training and qualified. I'd be 'grateful' if I had a rich relative who hooked me up with a 100k plus a year job sitting on my a$$ in an office going to an hour long meeting twice a day and making paper airplanes to fly around my office the other 6. Then I would be 'grateful'. In this case we work for our money , we're not getting hand outs or hook ups. And if the MTA did cut back and lay motormen off , they'd lose out paying OT to the remainining motormen and they know that and that's why they still hire even in this economy , because it makes economic sense for the agency to do so , not because they could care less about creating jobs or employing people. And it's not their responsiblility to care about creating jobs , so no problem there , but it is their responsibility to manage the agency's finances properly and ensure that they have enough qualified workers to make the trains go. Hopefully , you'll be one of those hires soon , that would be great.

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Hope to see you on the road too ... and I am happy I have the job , and I would be pissed off if I got a pink slip , but that's not going to happen. But I'm not "grateful" to have the job because the MTA is not doing me or any other motorman any favors. They need motormen , we stood in line and went through the process to get hired and passed the training and qualified. I'd be 'grateful' if I had a rich relative who hooked me up with a 100k plus a year job sitting on my a$$ in an office going to an hour long meeting twice a day and making paper airplanes to fly around my office the other 6. Then I would be 'grateful'. In this case we work for our money , we're not getting hand outs or hook ups. And if the MTA did cut back and lay motormen off , they'd lose out paying OT to the remainining motormen and they know that and that's why they still hire even in this economy , because it makes economic sense for the agency to do so , not because they could care less about creating jobs or employing people. And it's not their responsiblility to care about creating jobs , so no problem there , but it is their responsibility to manage the agency's finances properly and ensure that they have enough qualified workers to make the trains go. Hopefully , you'll be one of those hires soon , that would be great.

 

Damn...agreed on all :tup:...wow remind me to look you up when I start down here you sound like one of the good ones maybe I'll even end up as your C/R.

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Hope to see you on the road too ... and I am happy I have the job , and I would be pissed off if I got a pink slip , but that's not going to happen. But I'm not "grateful" to have the job because the MTA is not doing me or any other motorman any favors. They need motormen , we stood in line and went through the process to get hired and passed the training and qualified. I'd be 'grateful' if I had a rich relative who hooked me up with a 100k plus a year job sitting on my a$$ in an office going to an hour long meeting twice a day and making paper airplanes to fly around my office the other 6. Then I would be 'grateful'. In this case we work for our money , we're not getting hand outs or hook ups. And if the MTA did cut back and lay motormen off , they'd lose out paying OT to the remainining motormen and they know that and that's why they still hire even in this economy , because it makes economic sense for the agency to do so , not because they could care less about creating jobs or employing people. And it's not their responsiblility to care about creating jobs , so no problem there , but it is their responsibility to manage the agency's finances properly and ensure that they have enough qualified workers to make the trains go. Hopefully , you'll be one of those hires soon , that would be great.

 

Very true on all points Mike. That's just it we all qualified for our respective titles and made it through probation. My job as a S/A is basically one of a Bank teller,Customer Service Agent and Travel guide. People feel our job is not needed is expendable, but have you ever been a station and the MVM is not working the first thing people look for is the booth. And when their metrocard is not working first thing they look for is the booth. Whenever people get hurt on the station first thing FDNY and NYPD Is the agent in the booth. TA may be able to shrink the job by some, but could never completely get rid of it because there needs to be a human presence in the station some where. Like I continually say when everyone does their job we all keep the system running. We all have a vital role to play in the daily operations of the (NYCT). No one title is more important than the other. But I sure can't wait to get up on the trains. Hopefully I can get on the A Division when I become a C/R or T/O/, I favor the numbered lines more so than the lettered lines.

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I for one don't think station agents are expendable , and I think you guys do a good job. I live by 95th street and I'd like there to be a booth back at 93rd to be manned 24 hours or at least rush hours when my wife goes over there to get on the subway. I remember back when there was a corridor connecting 93rd to 95th , back in the bad old days of the late 70's / early to mid 80's , (back in the days of the old (R)® ... :cool:) and there was a lot of bad things that went on down there , and they used to have a booth at 93rd. I personally am big on public relations and I think the MTA would be making a huge mistake to eliminate the positions ... but on the bright side if they do , that should get you to c/r or t/o much faster I'd imagine. :tup:

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I wouldn't support a separate union for T/O's because it would be an awkward arrangement to have the T/O in one union and the C/R in another. What I would consider is a separate, single union that entails all the operating titles (T/O, C/R, B/O and S/A); you've gotta have the S/A's in there as they directly interact with the public. Anything else and it would be half-assed.

 

I have to agree with your statement..........

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I for one don't think station agents are expendable , and I think you guys do a good job. I live by 95th street and I'd like there to be a booth back at 93rd to be manned 24 hours or at least rush hours when my wife goes over there to get on the subway. I remember back when there was a corridor connecting 93rd to 95th , back in the bad old days of the late 70's / early to mid 80's , (back in the days of the old (R)® ... :cool:) and there was a lot of bad things that went on down there , and they used to have a booth at 93rd. I personally am big on public relations and I think the MTA would be making a huge mistake to eliminate the positions ... but on the bright side if they do , that should get you to c/r or t/o much faster I'd imagine. :tup:

 

That's true. were all civil service they have to offer you something if they eliminate a position. I would imagine it would be cleaner or Property Protection Agent. But TA can't eliminate anyone right now at least maybe in the future. But even cities such as DC that don't haven agents sell farecards still have someone in the station to assist customers. No station agent in the station would be like a RR station with out a ticket clerk. Even though there are station with out them already, at least slow station on the MNRR and LIRR. I mean I can't even use the bathroom without coming back to a long line. Alot of people have lost their money in the past at the MVM and refuse to ever use them again. I don't blame them before I became a cleark I lost $20 in the machine trying to buy a 7-day unlimited. I went to the booth to tell the agent and there was no way for him to refund my money. I did not understand then but I do now. And it's very unfortunate when that happens to people. It always makes me feel like the bad guy when I have to inform them I can't refund their money.

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Honestly when it comes to the number of pensions they get, RR retirement and even their health packages they do.

 

TA can retire at 55, LIRR at 62. I wouldn't call that better.

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You would hate it, but alot of us on this board live it. We work for an employer that tells you constantly that they hate you and would like to have nothing but managers and computers running the system!

 

You quoted my statement out of context. The original statement was "If that's the respect of an employer (being retaliated against for work related injuries) I would hate to work for an employer that has no respect for it's employees." Yes I was being sarcastic in writing it.

 

I've worked for managers in the private sector that hated me and degraded me in front of customers and fellow employees. You know what? Life goes on. With a little thick skin you get over it. Trust me, that is a lot better than getting hurt on the job and being retaliated against, losing income out right because you don't have the time to cover your lost wages when workers comp should be covering it. Granted, workers comp does not pay as much as the 90% sick wage that MNR employees get but it's still better than nothing. Nothing is what you get when you report a job related injury and you are told in return "No you didn't".

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You quoted my statement out of context. The original statement was "If that's the respect of an employer (being retaliated against for work related injuries) I would hate to work for an employer that has no respect for it's employees." Yes I was being sarcastic in writing it.

 

I've worked for managers in the private sector that hated me and degraded me in front of customers and fellow employees. You know what? Life goes on. With a little thick skin you get over it. Trust me, that is a lot better than getting hurt on the job and being retaliated against, losing income out right because you don't have the time to cover your lost wages when workers comp should be covering it. Granted, workers comp does not pay as much as the 90% sick wage that MNR employees get but it's still better than nothing. Nothing is what you get when you report a job related injury and you are told in return "No you didn't".

 

I don't get what you're trying to say. But just like in MNR in the TA you have to fight hard to get comp when you get hurt on the job unless there were multiple witnesses and they are supervisors or managers, hourlies are nothing more than liars so they don't count. And when the reports are filled out no matter what the supervisor who rights the report puts the manager will almost always change the cause of injury to "inattentiveness" so they can say it was your fault that you got hurt. I have witnessed arguments over managers changing these reports on many many occasions because where I work people get injured more often because of the increased dangers of the job.

 

And Truckie it's not the managers or supervisors that hate the hourly employees it's the company it's self. Supervision is treated the same way as the hourly employees with no respect and the same kind of hatred.

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Just saw this posting.. I've been saying for years, the RTO 'operating' titles of TO/CR should be represented in a separate bargaining group. Yada Yada, they're are plenty of reasons for/against the issue, but here is the number one reality. Any incident almost always involves other departments as well. With one union/group representing all parties involved for the hourlys, who is gonna get the short stick? Who is getting 100% efforts in union representation? Who will decide who gets the majority of the responsibility for the incident? From a union representation standpoint, what will keep the most dues coming in to the hall thru members working? How can we resolve this to generate less charges?

Not really a hard decision.. Charge 1-2 RTO crewmembers or 3 to whatever other departments involved..

 

The post office USED to be reped as one unit. Carriers, machine operators were all together. With automation, the machine operators were willing to give up just about anything to keep thier jobs.. The carriers called a vote to break away & did so, because they knew they couldn't be replaced by a machine.. In subways, its VERY similar.. EVERY JOB COULD be sub contracted out.. Outside vendors ARE putting in track, signals, building stations, doing communications.. and have been for years, and will only do more of it cause-- No expenses associated with the employees.. BUT in cost overuns & shoddy materials do overs, usually sqeeze TA for way more cash than what the contract originally cost..

 

TA will NEVER give up reponsibility of train movement, or enter a contract for a 3rd party to do so for the one all important reason. It hold them to be accountable contractually, that they will be penalized in a real court when they go to break it.. As for people who are gonna squak about 'Unmanned' trains, Nagh, sorry, aint happening either. With no hourly operator/fall guy at the front, TA would be on the hook for sole responsibility for people being hit on the tracks. That aint happening.. TA owns up to nothing! They're will ALWAYS be someone up front who is sueable/chargeable with wrongdoing, period.

 

I've looked into a break way vote. Its called a decertification vote. It needs to be proposed at a regular meeting, and be seconded. Google it. It needs to specify what bargaining groups are seeking decertification. If the vote goes thru, then there is a courtship period where the current local & new representation can come & offer representation.. with a vote at the end of the period.. I've also been told that the International WILL OFFER to set up a NEW local/bargaining group for the dis sattisfied groups just to keep the dues/cash heading thier way.. If it doesnt go thru, there can be some really hard consequences to pay, in a regular union shop, but since we never actually see/get union input while on the job, I 'm not too worried about it..

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Thanks for the reply. I PM'ed you and started another thread on the subject , asking the question more directly to guage interest in this. :tup:

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