The Express Bus: A Vital Service or an Unnecessary Luxury?

[LRG]

I think the BM4 should be cut entirely. Riders should just take the B31 to Bm3. If the BM3 needs more buses, it will use buses that were allocated for the Bm4. Plus I would think more people would be happier if the Bm1-3 all ran the D4500s. Leave the O5s for mainly the B100/103.

 

BM5 should still be annexed to the Bm2 and at Flatbush-Nostrand become a super express [no stops till Manhattan].

 

I'm not going to jump the gun so soon but the way I see it the BM4 does parallel the BM3 to an extent. The advantage of the BM3 is that it parallels the train as well as the X29, which means that cutting the X29 would do some harm. If the MTA wanted to make the BM3 AND the X29 useful, send the BM3 to run along Bedford Avenue.

[Grand Concourse]

Technically riders on Nostrand Av can just take the B44 to take the BM1.

Also to clarify on the Bm2 taking over the Bm5, that BM2 branch* can can run via Flatlands Av - basically mirror the B6 up till Albany.

 

*So basically there would be 2 BM2s, just that it would run via Brooklyn to help pick up more riders than to run partially full via the highways in Queens.

[B35 via Church]

lemme bring up some more points here.... surprised that this is still a hot topic in this section of the forum...

 

 

- virtually no one takes the B44 to the BM1 in the morning (or vice versa during the pm hrs)... the people that get off @ nostrand av on the BM1 are w/i walking distance of their homes...

 

- people are missing the fact that the x29 runs down broadway to get to lower manhattan... the "BM" buses circumnavigate the stretch of broadway that the x27/28/29 runs along.... there's no direct correlation b/w the BM3 & the x29....

 

 

 

- far as the whole BM2/BM5 thing....

Do any of you remember how the setup was, back when there was the BQM1 & the BM2? While I do agree that the roundabout/circumnavigable routing the of the BM5 is wasteful, the setup back then, was worse than the current BM2/BM5 setup now - during the rush, the BQM1 would end over there in the paerdegats (that's over there in the East 80's, for those who don't know) after having serve starrett... look at the map if you don't know what/where I'm talking about).. some of you would really be crying foul if the BM5 still took on that route/pattern....

 

some of you are assuming ALL the BM5 ridership emanates in Starrett city... don't know where that stems from...

 

Also to clarify on the Bm2 taking over the Bm5, that BM2 branch* can run via Flatlands Av - basically mirror the B6 up till Albany.

Good luck with that one.

 

There's a reason Spring creek took BM2's off Avenue J, en route to ending at 94th st/Flatlands av... I don't know if you're basing your suggestions off looking at the bus map or what... but, I don't see where any newfound express bus ridership would stem from, running down that stretch of Flatlands... maybe you can tell us.

 

There a sizble amount of riders on the BM5 who board at Linden Blvd/80th St (Brooklyn/Queens border) and also in Lindenwood along Condiut Ave before it goes non stop to/from Midtown. What replaces those riders?

For starters, There is no BM5 stop along the conduits, and it sure as hell doesn't stop in Lindenwood... lol...

 

That "sizable" amount you speak of, that disembark over there at 79th/linden blvd, only pertains to the percentage of BM5 riders (which aren't all that many)... that is the only stop it makes ON linden blvd (what is that telling you).... the stop after that is on ashford (the boulevard houses), after turning off linden... do you think these people are really crying for/over express bus service?

 

What replaces those riders? Nothing.

 

 

.....and to whoever it was in the past that said something to the effect of, well, the BM5 takes the routing that it does (over the BM2), to circumvent lower manhattan, much like the 17j does heading to staten island... please don't.... that's not too smart a comparison to compare the usage of those two routes... lol... BM5 riders aren't seeking service to Canarsie... if there was nothing wrong w/ the old BQM1 route, they would have simply changed the route notation (the BM5) & left the physical routing....

 

alone.

[Grand Concourse]

My point about Flatlands is so that BM2 can use it as a bypass [no stops on Flatlands*] so it can get riders to the Junction quickly while at the same time picking up more BM2 riders than to run 'as is' via Queens.

So for all intent purposes it is a BM2a or a BM5 that runs via Brooklyn only.

 

And Ftr [to anyone in general], it's not like I've said cut the BM2 or BM1. So it hardly qualifies me as an 'express bus hater'. There are others [not here] that have outright stated ALL express bus routes to be cut. That - I do not totally agree with. I just feel there are some routes that are not used to their max potential and resources should be reallocated.

 

*would stop picking up riders at 105th and then start to pick up riders again at around 66th St where the current BM2 runs.

[LRG]

My point about Flatlands is so that BM2 can use it as a bypass [no stops on Flatlands*] so it can get riders to the Junction quickly while at the same time picking up more BM2 riders than to run 'as is' via Queens.

So for all intent purposes it is a BM2a or a BM5 that runs via Brooklyn only.

 

And Ftr [to anyone in general], it's not like I've said cut the BM2 or BM1. So it hardly qualifies me as an 'express bus hater'. There are others [not here] that have outright stated ALL express bus routes to be cut. That - I do not totally agree with. I just feel there are some routes that are not used to their max potential and resources should be reallocated.

 

*would start to pick up riders again at around 66th St where the current BM2 runs.

 

Actually, I deeply think ALL express buses should be cut!

...because I'm a notorious express bus hater that can't stand express buses at all!!! MWAHAHAHAHA!!! LOL!

[Grand Concourse]

Oooh, you're gonna feel his wrath now

Hell I'd be pretty happy if I had the money to take the express bus - one seat ride to Manhattan, a seat to myself I should emphasize. Who wouldn't want that for just 'double' the current fare?

[B35 via Church]

Again: why are you still so fixated on this route for? Does it impact you directly?

They have the B31 to Kings Highway. They want their express bus fix so much they'll take the BM3 on Ocean Av. The BM4 is going to make all stops anyway. That way the Bm3 will be even more efficient and can always use more buses.

 

Exactly. I highly doubt he has ever used the route, let alone seen the buses that use it. On weekends it is empty. If the MTA were smart that route would have been cut from the get go on weekends.

 

I don't fault the guy for advocating keeping service around... but there has to come a time where, if a route isn't being used to its potential, getting rid of the service should be (at least talked about)... that is, if there's no way of altering/expanding said service to provide for more riders.... cutting runs would lie somewhere b/w the two, which is also a viable solution....

 

I think the BM4 should go... I'm not anymore correct than anyone on here.... but to keep fighting for a route that people in the neighborhoods w/ which it serves cares less about than you do.... well, you all can think of w/e adjective to call such a thing....

 

I think the BM4 should be cut entirely. Riders should just take the B31 to Bm3. If the BM3 needs more buses, it will use buses that were allocated for the Bm4. Plus I would think more people would be happier if the Bm1-3 all ran the D4500s. Leave the O5s for mainly the B100/103.

 

I think my posts have rubbed off on you, somewhat....

Agreed on all points, bro...

 

 

This is my belief:

 

Cut the BM4 all times, BM5 Saturdays, QM4 weekends, QM15 Saturdays, X27 Sundays, X28 weekends.

 

However, I would make a special holiday schedule for Presidents Day and all other holidays that run a Sat schedule. On Feb 15, I spotted a QM15 going outbound on the LIE with all seats full.

 

Also, on Black Friday, why run full express bus service? Run a Saturday schedule on most routes, and a weekday schedule on the X1.

 

Some people may conflict over this, but are weekend frequencies better than hourly needed on Bronx express routes or the X17C? (except BxM7, of course)

 

I agree w/ your assessment, w/ the exception of the qm15... I think it should run something like the BxM4b does (every 2 hrs)... with each of those (weekend) runs heading to far rockaway... not cutting every weekend run outright on that route...

 

the point about black friday is moot... if we're gonna pick random days during the work week throughout the year where express bus service isn't highly used....

 

x17c is used more than the BxM7 on weekends....

otherwise, yeh, there is excess in saturday express bus service in the bronx... as to whether it's political as Shortline hinted towards, well, I can't say... b/c I don't know the areas of the bronx (near as well as I know areas in Brooklyn or Queens) that has political pull....

[Forest Glen]

Exactly. I highly doubt he has ever used the route, let alone seen the buses that use it. On weekends it is empty. If the MTA were smart that route would have been cut from the get go on weekends.

 

I didn't say anything about weekends. It's a no brainer that the BM4 doesn't need weekend service. I just said to have a limited number of rush hour runs. However, if it meant saving the BM3 then I'd eliminate the BM4.

[Forest Glen]

GC ok a question. There a sizble amount of riders on the BM5 who board at Linden Blvd/80th St (Brooklyn/Queens border) and also in Lindenwood along Condiut Ave before it goes non stop to/from Midtown. What replaces those riders?

 

Let's not confuse him with facts

[LRG]

I didn't say anything about weekends. It's a no brainer that the BM4 doesn't need weekend service. I just said to have a limited number of rush hour runs. However, if it meant saving the BM3 then I'd eliminate the BM4.

 

With the chances of service cuts drawing near, many routes should just be consolidated.

[Grand Concourse]

I didn't say anything about weekends. It's a no brainer that the BM4 doesn't need weekend service. I just said to have a limited number of rush hour runs. However, if it meant saving the BM3 then I'd eliminate the BM4.

 

Oh jeez, finally you get the point....

 

Let's not confuse him with facts

 

At least I never said outright eliminate it. B35 can weigh in better about how useless the Bm5 is.

I could've said just replace it with a local line, but you would've bitched about it being the express bus lover that you are.

 

Maybe you shouldn't get confused over obsessions about keeping wasteful lines because it's an express bus route. You worry about your own backyard, which is Queens.

[LRG]

Oooh, you're gonna feel his wrath now

Hell I'd be pretty happy if I had the money to take the express bus - one seat ride to Manhattan, a seat to myself I should emphasize. Who wouldn't want that for just 'double' the current fare?

 

LOL! Express buses are a waste and should go. LMFAO!!! Take the train my dude...it's 10 times FASTER and more efficient! No-brainer, hello? X-D

 

At least I never said outright eliminate it. I could've said just replace it with a local line, but you would've bitched about it being the express lover that you are.

 

LOL! Keep it up Phil! I'm anti-express bus and I'm proud of it! Are you?

[Grand Concourse]

And to add as a final note to FG:

 

I'm sorry my opinions are too radical for you, I even tried to appease you by having the BM5 run thru Brooklyn faster to make up for cutting the wasteful detour via Queens. But you know what, I don't care what you think. My opinion is my opinion. I ask again - how does cutting the Bm4 and Bm5 affect you personally? I would have no problems cutting them both to BOOST Bm3 and Bm2 services respectively. I'm merely advocating for allocating resources more effectively. Others here have testified the Bm4 and Bm5 are a waste.

 

Also, you never answered me about what you would do to try and balance the MTA's budget.

I have already listed the 3 major issues: fare hikes, service cuts, and student cards. You have yet to answer me about how you intend on getting funding to maintain the 'status quo'. The MTA can't afford to keep all 3 the same.

 

And I'd rather have cuts for lines [express buses, local buses, subways - in that order] that aren't at capacity and costly to run, cuts for student cards to keep overall service the same. Buying new trains and buses is expensive, fare hikes are inevitable. Be happy the subways don't charge by distance the way other systems do and offers a transfer to buses.

[Grand Concourse]

LOL! Express buses are a waste and should go. LMFAO!!! Take the train my dude...it's 10 times FASTER and more efficient! No-brainer, hello? X-D

 

 

 

LOL! Keep it up Phil! I'm anti-express bus and I'm proud of it! Are you?

 

Exactly, trains are not delayed by typical car traffic. They are lucky they can use opposing directional roads to run for express buses only, otherwise they'd be stuck in traffic like every other car.

 

Heh, I'm probably on the blacklist anyway.

[Forest Glen]

And to add as a final note to FG:

 

I'm sorry my opinions are too radical for you, I even tried to appease you by having the BM5 run thru Brooklyn faster to make up for cutting the wasteful detour via Queens. But you know what, I don't care what you think. My opinion is my opinion. I ask again - how does cutting the Bm4 and Bm5 affect you personally? I would have no problems cutting them both to BOOST Bm3 and Bm2 services respectively. I'm merely advocating for allocating resources more effectively. Others here have testified the Bm4 and Bm5 are a waste.

 

Also, you never answered me about what you would do to try and balance the MTA's budget.

I have already listed the 3 major issues: fare hikes, service cuts, and student cards. You have yet to answer me about how you intend on getting funding to maintain the 'status quo'. The MTA can't afford to keep all 3 the same.

 

And I'd rather have cuts for lines [express buses, local buses, subways - in that order] that aren't at capacity and costly to run, cuts for student cards to keep overall service the same. Buying new trains and buses is expensive, fare hikes are inevitable. Be happy the subways don't charge by distance the way other systems do and offers a transfer to buses.

 

Brooklyn doesn't have highways like Queens (the Prospect Expressway is a joke). There's a reason why the BM5 operates via Queens. I will admit that it is empty on weekends. Under my proposal it would only operate during rush hour. I wouldn't lose sleep if the BM4 was eliminated. In fact, as a compromise I'd eliminate the BM4 and keep the BM5.

 

As for the MTA budget crisis (which was self-inflicted), I'd simply make a few cuts here and there. There would be subtle cuts (ie a route that currently runs once every 10 minutes would run once every 15 minutes). Unless a route is extremely underutilized or useless like the M18 I'd keep it.

[Grand Concourse]

But how is that a compromise to eliminate 1 wasteful line? By all these posts you've made it sure doesn't look like you've lost sleep over it. I mean I haven't said 'cut the X63' have I? From all these posts, it sounds like I'm cutting a route you use daily or something. So it's really much ado over nothing.

 

Also just because it runs on highways, it doesn't make them that much better. You don't think other drivers knows the highways are the way to go? I would imagine it must be just as crowded waiting to enter the Queens-Midtown tunnel like it is for the Brooklyn Battery. So it's not really going to make much of a difference. At least on the highways you don't have traffic lights, but on the same hand it would be bumper to bumper traffic basically.

 

But subtle cuts may not be enough. And would you take having a higher fare? And would you still keep student cards?

[Forest Glen]

The LIE has a HOV lane just for express buses. In order to reach the Prospect Expressway, the BM2 has to go through all of the congestion in Kensington.

 

I'd keep student cards. I'd raise the express bus fare to $6 if it meant no more complaints about the express bus being "wasteful".

[Grand Concourse]

But that's not enough [some express buses costs more to operate and have no turnovers, it just collects riders and is a one way trip] and the DOE should be expected to help pay for at least half if not all the costs.

[LRG]

These express bus routes need to be looked into seriously, even if it means to reroute a bus, combine two routes into one, or eradicate a route altogether. If you want to keep the buses then shelve out hundreds of thousands of dollars to the MTA to pay for gas and whatnot. If a more "environmentally-friendly" bus were created then I'd have a different mindset but it just costs too dang much to run these buses. It's funny that you see express buses deadhead to their respective depots more than any other type of route.

[Forest Glen]

Today I headed to the Bronx to take some snow pics of the train. After 125 Street there were 3 people in the car (this was midday). No one complains about that. Everyone scapegoats the express bus as if local buses or subways don't deadhead.

[LRG]

Today I headed to the Bronx to take some snow pics of the train. After 125 Street there were 3 people in the car (this was midday). No one complains about that. Everyone scapegoats the express bus as if local buses or subways don't deadhead.

 

Today was a snow day so it would be typical for people to stay out of the inclement weather at all costs. Many kids did not have school and many people did not have to go to work. Heck, I'd be shocked if many of the express routes ran 1/4 full....

[Grand Concourse]

And express buses are usually one way trips that picks up riders and gradually drops them off. Ie: no interborough service, thus a lack of turnover [in terms of overall riders].

At least the subways and other local buses people are picked up and dropped off constantly.

[LRG]

And express buses are usually one way trips that picks up riders and gradually drops them off. Ie: no interborough service, thus a lack of turnover [in terms of overall riders].

At least the subways and other local buses people are picked up and dropped off constantly.

 

100% correct. In this city, buses act like a feeder to the subway due to the fact that the trains run under (or in some cases, over, or even through) the hustle and bustle on the streets. Therefore, express buses do act like some sort of a luxury because people choose to resort on something that is less efficient than the subway.

[Grand Concourse]

Yup. An empty subway is not the same as an empty express bus. Sure there's 3 people on the train, but then there can always be 20 people getting on and off at different times and that's not even counting the return trip. But an express bus that gets 20 riders - that's it. And then it just starts to drop people off gradually.

 

Of course, "why would anyone want to pay double to ride w/in the same borough?" But point is, there's no change ridership.

[B35 via Church]

Today I headed to the Bronx to take some snow pics of the train. After 125 Street there were 3 people in the car (this was midday). No one complains about that. Everyone scapegoats the express bus as if local buses or subways don't deadhead.

- Not sayin it's right or wrong... but it's easier to scapegoat deadheading express buses b/c a) you see more of them that do it.... and

when local buses deadhead, they're deadheading to a depot that is either close by, or w/i the confines of the borough it serves.... deadheading express buses travel further distances (back to their depots) b/c they serve areas that are far out, from the ultimate destination (in the AM)... which is Manhattan.

 

..and how many deadheading subways do people see in the course of a day.... can't be that many to the point where it's even thought about, let alone talked about...

 

 

- Aside from the snow we got today....

 

no one complains about near empty subway trains? you haven't heard/read all the complaining of the low usage on the in Brooklyn the past few years... and the Dyre av branch of the gets thrown under the bus also when it comes to subway lines w/ subpar ridership...