The Express Bus: A Vital Service or an Unnecessary Luxury?

[Shortline Bus]

Today I headed to the Bronx to take some snow pics of the train. After 125 Street there were 3 people in the car (this was midday). No one complains about that. Everyone scapegoats the express bus as if local buses or subways don't deadhead.

 

With schools being closed and many people forced off from work, ridership on friday 2/26/10 for all NYC subways and buses i bet(my guess could be wrong lol)probably was similar to a Sunday afternoon not a normal weekday.

[Shortline Bus]

B35 a question? I think it was Amtrak who suggested that Saturday X27 be maintained and X28 weekend service being cut. Is not the X27/28 have almost the same ridership on weekends? I agree Sunday X27/28 should be canned.

 

 

Also B35, do you agree with the X37/38 'super express' FDR service being possibly canned?

[B35 via Church]

B35 a question? I think it was Amtrak who suggested that Saturday X27 be maintained and X28 weekend service being cut. Is not the X27/28 have almost the same ridership on weekends? I agree Sunday X27/28 should be canned.

 

 

Also B35, do you agree with the X37/38 'super express' FDR service being possibly canned?

 

x27 is more utilized on the weekends than the x28 is.... he (Amtrak7) was spot on in that part of his assessment.

 

...and, I don't agree on killing off the x37/38 outright... but I do think they should run on an extremely limited bases....

(not limited in the sense of limited bus routes... but limited in the sense of, not near as much as current x37/38 service)...

 

The # of 28/38 runs to Sea Gate should be discontinued (just have all buses end at the Pathmark (Canal av).... just send 29's out to sea gate & be done with it (coinciding w/ what I said in another post, having x29's begin/end @ 23rd/broadway)...

 

 

 

So what I'm saying is (as far as weekdays go):

 

x27 left alone (really, some runs can be lifted also.... purely politics IMO as to why these things are as frequent as they are...)

x28 to Canal av, left alone

x28 to Sea gate, discontinued

x29 from 23rd/broadway to sea gate, rush hrs. only

x37 route left alone, w/ a decrease in service

x38 to canal av left alone, w/ a decrease in service

x38 to Sea gate, discontinued

 

...and far as weekends go, again, I agree w/ Amtrak7 on the x27/x28....

[Art Vandelay]

As Grand Concourse correctly points out, the Express buses are structured in such a way they deadhead to the start of the line, make one trip in service, and deadhead back to the depot, or back to the start of the line, and make another trip.

 

That results in high per passenger costs. Tack on the fact that there is no turnover, and you have even higher per passenger costs.

 

Direct helicopter service would be more cost effective than many of the express bus lines.

[Shortline Bus]

x27 is more utilized on the weekends than the x28 is.... he (Amtrak7) was spot on in that part of his assessment.

 

...and, I don't agree on killing off the x37/38 outright... but I do think they should run on an extremely limited bases....

(not limited in the sense of limited bus routes... but limited in the sense of, not near as much as current x37/38 service)...

 

The # of 28/38 runs to Sea Gate should be discontinued (just have all buses end at the Pathmark (Canal av).... just send 29's out to sea gate & be done with it (coinciding w/ what I said in another post, having x29's begin/end @ 23rd/broadway)...

 

The main reason the B82 and X28/38 was extended about 10 years ago besides giving CI residents(dont have link but trust me it was in Brooklyn Bay News i read at time)a bus to then new Home Depot on Crospey was that the Pathmark owners only allowed the to use their parking lots during the weekday.

 

So you still stand by your comments B35?

[B35 via Church]

The main reason the B82 and X28/38 was extended about 10 years ago besides giving CI residents(dont have link but trust me it was in Brooklyn Bay News i read at time)a bus to then new Home Depot on Crospey was that the Pathmark owners only allowed the to use their parking lots during the weekday.

 

So you still stand by your comments B35?

 

I don't doubt any of that information....

However, that's not a reason I would amend my comment.

 

all the x28's that'd be truncated on the weekends to Canal av (assuming anyone's still on the bus on a weekend @ that point), would have to travel over the bridge & make that left on neptune av, to turnaround... that's all...

(neptune > stillwell > harway > UP depot)

[R32 3348]

As for the MTA budget crisis (which was self-inflicted), I'd simply make a few cuts here and there. There would be subtle cuts (ie a route that currently runs once every 10 minutes would run once every 15 minutes). Unless a route is extremely underutilized or useless like the M18 I'd keep it.

The budget crisis this time around wasn't self-inflicted. Out of the $750 million hole they're in right now, $143 million was cut by Albany, and another $200 million was a miscalculation of bailout money that Albany made (so that's $200 million that never came in). There's $50 million or so that the city withdrew from its Student Metrocard program and then there's falling tax revenues that the can't control.

 

Also, making subtle bus cuts here and there wouldn't be enough to plug the $750 million budget gap. When it comes to express buses, IMO a route should become rush-hour only if it has low ridership at all other times and/or is close to other alternatives of transportation that take similar travel time. If the route is also near other very similar transportation alternatives during rush hour (i.e. BxM4A) then elimination should be looked into.

[checkmatechamp13]

As Grand Concourse correctly points out, the Express buses are structured in such a way they deadhead to the start of the line, make one trip in service, and deadhead back to the depot, or back to the start of the line, and make another trip.

 

That results in high per passenger costs. Tack on the fact that there is no turnover, and you have even higher per passenger costs.

 

Direct helicopter service would be more cost effective than many of the express bus lines.

 

 

I have a really crazy idea. I do you think that some of those routes deadheading back to the outer boroughs run as another express route? For example, an X17 could end at 57th Street and then go up to 92nd Street-York Avenue and go to Lower Manhattan as an X90 before returning to Staten Island. (I am aware that the X90 is slated to be axed)

Also, I can't think of a location, but maybe a new depot could be built near an area where many express buses terminate, or some express routes could be stored in a depot with some space, since many of the buses are out on the road, during midday, and that would save the trouble (and expense) of having to deadhead out to the outer boroughs in the AM rush and going back to Manhattan in the PM rush.

[LRG]

I have a really crazy idea. I do you think that some of those routes deadheading back to the outer boroughs run as another express route? For example, an X17 could end at 57th Street and then go up to 92nd Street-York Avenue and go to Lower Manhattan as an X90 before returning to Staten Island. (I am aware that the X90 is slated to be axed)

Also, I can't think of a location, but maybe a new depot could be built near an area where many express buses terminate, or some express routes could be stored in a depot with some space, since many of the buses are out on the road, during midday, and that would save the trouble (and expense) of having to deadhead out to the outer boroughs in the AM rush and going back to Manhattan in the PM rush.

 

That's something I don't understand the MTA has ever done...run on another route or have them layover at MJQ.

[Grand Concourse]

While I won't be against that, it would mean an even longer drive for the b/o. I don't know if the union would be in favor of that.

Currently I think even some MTA Bus buses are stored at MJQ, since there would be room while the local buses are out on road already.

 

I also wonder if there's even any demand for a reverse peak direction service? Like Manhattan to Downtown Brooklyn or something. That's only if the bus was to return back [likely empty to deadhead].

[bussman7338]

This is the first rational post in this entire thread. Thank you. The BxM11 parallels the . However, the is known for being pokey and overcrowded. How about the BxM11 run rush hour only?

 

there are other issues about the BXM11 that are not addressed one is there are only 2 stations on the #2 line with elevators for the handicapped that are 233st and pelham pkwy besides it also serves the bronx zoo.

[bussman7338]

While I won't be against that, it would mean an even longer drive for the b/o. I don't know if the union would be in favor of that.

Currently I think even some MTA Bus buses are stored at MJQ, since there would be room while the local buses are out on road already.

 

I also wonder if there's even any demand for a reverse peak direction service? Like Manhattan to Downtown Brooklyn or something. That's only if the bus was to return back [likely empty to deadhead].

 

Hey how the TA get the union to allow TA x"s to lay over at mjq(MAbstoa Depot) I know that Mabstoa is step child of TA but years ago this would be a no,no.

[Grand Concourse]

I am not sure, I could be wrong about MJQ, and that it could be another Manhattan bus depot. Some have taken pics of MTA Bus buses coming out of a Manhattan depot before.

But point is, they should lay up buses in Manhattan than to run the buses empty, back to their respective depots in the other 4 boroughs. The buildings should not be as filled, with buses already on the road [obviously the buses should not obstruct incoming and outgoing buses]. The only other option is for the MTA to buy a vacant lot to store those buses till they are needed again for the PM rush.

 

there are other issues about the BXM11 that are not addressed one is there are only 2 stations on the #2 line with elevators for the handicapped that are 233st and pelham pkwy besides it also serves the bronx zoo.

 

But, who's taking mainly the express bus to the Bronx Zoo? I'm not saying it's useless [i dunno what that route is like], but that's not exactly a justification for the route.

[cotb16]

there are other issues about the BXM11 that are not addressed one is there are only 2 stations on the #2 line with elevators for the handicapped that are 233st and pelham pkwy besides it also serves the bronx zoo.

 

You forgot that Gun Hill is also ADA accessible, but the elevators at Gun Hill have broken down constantly, despite being about 3-4 years old.

[B35 via Church]

Also, I can't think of a location, but maybe a new depot could be built near an area where many express buses terminate, or some express routes could be stored in a depot with some space, since many of the buses are out on the road, during midday, and that would save the trouble (and expense) of having to deadhead out to the outer boroughs in the AM rush and going back to Manhattan in the PM rush.

 

You, and plenty others as well (myself included)....

 

I don't know about a depot, per say, but I think if there was some central location where express buses can be stored w/i manhattan (those that finish their AM trips, that is), the MTA would have long considered partaking in such a plan... that is, if they're smart.

 

I also wonder if there's even any demand for a reverse peak direction service? Like Manhattan to Downtown Brooklyn or something. That's only if the bus was to return back [likely empty to deadhead].

 

they'd probably extend the x25 to downtown brooklyn before they consider interlining another route that came from another outerborough, to manhattan, then to downtown bklyn....

 

I highly doubt there any increasing demand for reverse pk. direction service (in the AM, that'd mean from Manhattan to one of the other boroughs... for the PM, that'd be from one of the outerboroughs, to Manhattan)... IMO, systemwide, this is one area where the mta pisses away money; reverse peak express bus ridership in NYC is horrid !!

 

But, who's taking mainly the express bus to the Bronx Zoo? I'm not saying it's useless [i dunno what that route is like], but that's not exactly a justification for the route.

It's not a justification, but I think dude brought it up "just because"....

 

Believe it or not, people do use that Bronx zoo stop off the Bx. River Pkwy (and the one off Boston rd, heading towards manhattan).... and from the looks of things, these are ppl. that aren't even coming from having visited/ heading to, the bronx zoo.....

(even I was surprised)

[Art Vandelay]

We can all look at the numbers, as they are online.

 

The "useless" M18 has higher ridership than all of the NYCT express bus routes in either Queens or Manhattan, offering those rides at less than half the subsidy.

 

Looking at the numbers, how can one possibly call the M18 useless or wasteful, while calling the expresses essential?

[Grand Concourse]

B35 and Art, very good points :tup:

[Forest Glen]

We can all look at the numbers, as they are online.

 

The "useless" M18 has higher ridership than all of the NYCT express bus routes in either Queens or Manhattan, offering those rides at less than half the subsidy.

 

Looking at the numbers, how can one possibly call the M18 useless or wasteful, while calling the expresses essential?

 

 

No way in hell does the M18 carry more people than the QM1A.

 

Are you sure you aren't R30a?

[Grand Concourse]

Technically you weren't specific about the M18, are you talking about how many people are on the bus from like end to end in one trip [and does it include the return trip]?

 

Remember about turnovers - an express bus only picks people up and gradually drops them off [making one trip or even 2 trips per rush hour]. A local bus picks up people and drops them off on a constant basis [till it goes back to the depot].

 

And that's not to say I'd keep an empty local bus over a crowded express bus - let me be clear about that.

[aemoreira81]

Technically you weren't specific about the M18, are you talking about how many people are on the bus from like end to end in one trip [and does it include the return trip]?

 

Remember about turnovers - an express bus only picks people up and gradually drops them off [making one trip or even 2 trips per rush hour]. A local bus picks up people and drops them off on a constant basis [till it goes back to the depot].

 

And that's not to say I'd keep an empty local bus over a crowded express bus - let me be clear about that.

 

However, on turnover, some local routes are awful. Case in point: routes like the Brewer Boulevard services.

[R32 3348]

there are other issues about the BXM11 that are not addressed one is there are only 2 stations on the #2 line with elevators for the handicapped that are 233st and pelham pkwy besides it also serves the bronx zoo.

East 180th St. is getting ADA and a rehab by January 2012.

[Shortline Bus]

East 180th St. is getting ADA and a rehab by January 2012.

 

If that case and Pelham Pwy, gun hill road and 241 St. stations on the subway line can also become ada, then the BXM11 can become a weekday only route.

[NX Express]

I thought of like 12 routes that can be removed in Queens and Bronx...but I won't post it unless asked to (lack of energy).

[R32 3348]

If that case and Pelham Pwy, gun hill road and 241 St. stations on the subway line can also become ada, then the BXM11 can become a weekday only route.

Gun Hill Rd. and Pelham Pkwy already have ADA. IMO the BxM11 should be a rush-hour only route. From what I hear it gets ridership during rush hours but is empty during middays (anyone care to back this up?).

[B35 via Church]

I thought of like 12 routes that can be removed in Queens and Bronx...but I won't post it unless asked to (lack of energy).

 

since you brought it up....

may as well post it...