The Express Bus: A Vital Service or an Unnecessary Luxury?

[checkmatechamp13]

Agreed 100%, especially on your first statement with the cost recovery, or how much it costs per person to run a bus. That's why I feel that the S60 should be done away with; there was a news article posted on the "other" board that stated that the cost per passenger on the S60 is six times more than the actual fare. I don't blame people crying over a loss of bus service, bur if another bus route were sent via Grymes Hills, then they wouldn't need to bicker. Do away with the S60 and have every other S93 bus serve Grymes Hill, the S53 serve Grymes Hill during off peak weekday hours under 20 minute intervals, and weekend service at 30 minute intervals. Consolidation of these routes come into play, and they should if the MTA wants to save money.

 

I posted about this in the bus service cuts thread. I said that the S66 (or any of the Victory Boulevard routes for that matter, but I chose the S66 because I don't think Grymes Hill needs service weekends) could be rerouted to run the full length of Howard Avenue, from Clove Road to Louis Street. There are 3 (currently 4, but the S67 is being cut) buses to the ferry, all leaving at the same time. I also said that the S61 could run down Manor Road to replace the S54 on weekends and the S57 could be extended to replace the S76 on weekends.

 

I think my S66 idea is better, but the S93 idea isn't terrible. A lot of the ridership is at the 4 stops on Narrows Road. However, the S53 has a lot of ridership on the northern half of the route, and I think all buses should run the full route.

[Grand Concourse]

Very well. This is better than eliminating express bus routes. I'm a reasonable person willing to compromise.

 

But that is not to say every route has to be kept. They still need to be evaluated on a case by case basis. Cuts are still needed especially if they are not well used. I agree with LRG about consolidating lines.

[checkmatechamp13]

But that is not to say every route has to be kept. They still need to be evaluated on a case by case basis. Cuts are still needed especially if they are not well used. I agree with LRG about consolidating lines.

 

I agree. Redundant buses and buses that have only a few people riding them should go. Of course, the MTA should see how much slower the alternatives are and how much more crowded the surrounding buses would be. If you eliminate a half-full bus and tell the riders to walk one block to the next bus to a crushloaded bus, those people will have to wait for several buses to pass in order to get on, or load onto the bus, making it a safety hazard.

[LRG]

Okay guys, since we're talking about route consolidation, check this out: Discontinue S67; add a few buses from the S67 to current S66; make it veer off course from Victory Boulevard until it meets with the current S60 at St. John's University, let it follow the S60 route from the campus to Howard Avenue and Clove Road, and then resume its normal course, and allow a few runs operate via Watchogue Road (e.g. every other bus during rush hours only). Any ideas?

[checkmatechamp13]

I already posted about the S60 in the thread about the service cuts, and said that some S66s could be sent down Howard Avenue. As for the S67, there are 2 limited routes and 3 (currently 4) routes down Victory Boulevard from the ferry to Jewett Avenue. Unless the current routes become overcrowded during rush hour, I really see no reason to add extra buses to the S66. If you only run very other bus along Jewett Avenue, you are giving that corridor 30 minute headways during rush hour (which sadly is what Watchogue and Willowbrook Road would have during rush hour, wothout the S67). Maybe as a compromise, the MTA can add some S57s and run them from Richmond Terrace to Victory Boulevard (while they're at it, they could almost extend it to Susan Wagner High School), just so riders along Watchogue Road keep their headways. Of course, as in many cases where the MTA is asking riders to transfer, there should be an extra transfer programmed onto the card.

[Shortline Bus]

Checkmatechamp sounds like a good idea. Can we get back on topic and stick to NYC express bus routes please? SI Express line is ok to with. There other threads to dicuss the local bus cuts. Thanks:confused:

 

I already posted about the S60 in the thread about the service cuts, and said that some S66s could be sent down Howard Avenue. As for the S67, there are 2 limited routes and 3 (currently 4) routes down Victory Boulevard from the ferry to Jewett Avenue. Unless the current routes become overcrowded during rush hour, I really see no reason to add extra buses to the S66. If you only run very other bus along Jewett Avenue, you are giving that corridor 30 minute headways during rush hour (which sadly is what Watchogue and Willowbrook Road would have during rush hour, wothout the S67). Maybe as a compromise, the MTA can add some S57s and run them from Richmond Terrace to Victory Boulevard (while they're at it, they could almost extend it to Susan Wagner High School), just so riders along Watchogue Road keep their headways. Of course, as in many cases where the MTA is asking riders to transfer, there should be an extra transfer programmed onto the card.

[Far Rock Depot]

ooooo. i like THIS discussion!

 

im seeing a lot of valid points on how service should be more efficient for routes used more than others.

there are many express buses that are needed, especially in SI and Queens.

 

i use to commute daily on the QM17 back in HS under green Lines. my HS was in East midtown. The benefit of QM routes in rockaway is because they do one thing the doesnt, bypass brooklyn and lower manhattan. hell, the MTA increased service on these 2 routes. same goes for the QM15 and QM18. and we should leave eastern Queens route there, no subway.

IMO, the QM23 needs to go. it mirrors the QM15 too much. And it seems it was only created to supplement redused LIRR service after 1950.

BxM routes DO need to be restructured. especially the BxM7s. but they can be less of a headache that taking the IRT. especially the east side. But i do theing the BxM6 needs to go. im not sure if they still do the following service pattern, but the Morris Pk bus serves Hugh Grant Circle during the weekends to replace the BxM6. this should be permanant.

 

as far as the MCIs, to my understanding these buses were ordered for 2 reasons, a higher level of comfort and their engines. Standard buses arent really made for highway usage. But as a former rider of the QM17 along the LIE, standard coaches can do the trick. same goes for brooklyn express routes. The Gowanas Expressway is nicknamed the "Go-No-Where" for a reason. i do beleive that an MCI cost more than a standard coach and it would be cheaper to use a mix of the 2. MCIs for longer distance routes(especially for SI routes, definatly for those routes via Jersey) and standard coaches for others.

 

Id have more points and opinions to add, but a had to read the entire thread to catch u before posting and my eyes are sore

[S78 via Hylan]

My take on this discussion is that most of the express routes in Staten Island are needed. As, for the other boroughs, I cannot say, but I will say this: If a certain express route does not have high ridership, it should be reduced before getting eliminated entirely because it could be low in ridership one day, but then high the next. I mean, a bus doesn't always get the same amount of riders everyday. Just my two cents.

[Forest Glen]

Fair enough. Thank you for compromising and not jumping to conclusions or making ill-advised decisions.

[Shortline Bus]

ooooo. i like THIS discussion!

 

im seeing a lot of valid points on how service should be more efficient for routes used more than others.

there are many express buses that are needed, especially in SI and Queens.

 

 

BxM routes DO need to be restructured. especially the BxM7s. but they can be less of a headache that taking the IRT. especially the east side. But i do theing the BxM6 needs to go. im not sure if they still do the following service pattern, but the Morris Pk bus serves Hugh Grant Circle during the weekends to replace the BxM6. this should be permanant.

 

as far as the MCIs, to my understanding these buses were ordered for 2 reasons, a higher level of comfort and their engines. Standard buses arent really made for highway usage. But as a former rider of the QM17 along the LIE, standard coaches can do the trick. same goes for brooklyn express routes. The Gowanas Expressway is nicknamed the "Go-No-Where" for a reason. i do beleive that an MCI cost more than a standard coach and it would be cheaper to use a mix of the 2. MCIs for longer distance routes(especially for SI routes, definatly for those routes via Jersey) and standard coaches for others.

 

Id have more points and opinions to add, but a had to read the entire thread to catch u before posting and my eyes are sore

 

I would add add weekend BXM4a (Bedford park branch) and BXm2 west midtown to be canned. Why does Riverdale Ave riders even have '3' express bus routes when metro north hudson line is also nearby?

[Guest Charles]

 

i use to commute daily on the QM17 back in HS under green Lines. my HS was in East midtown. The benefit of QM routes in rockaway is because they do one thing the doesnt, bypass brooklyn and lower manhattan. hell, the MTA increased service on these 2 routes. same goes for the QM15 and QM18. and we should leave eastern Queens route there, no subway.

IMO, the QM23 needs to go. it mirrors the QM15 too much. And it seems it was only created to supplement redused LIRR service after 1950.

 

 

 

 

I see why people want the QM23 to go, but it's only one trip in each direction!! I really don't see what effect getting rid of the QM23 is. And it's not as useless as people think. There's a point to this route - it's there for a reason. It's common for more than 20 people to be on the bus, besides, it has an efficient route in Manhattan going on 34th Street. What the can do is eliminate the off-peak and weekend QM15; in fact the QM15 can see some reductions even weekdays. There needs to be weekend express service into the Rockaways, though.

 

[Grand Concourse]

It runs O5s right? That would be fine if the bus gets 20 riders as you say. But by no means is it worth running a D4500 on it for.

[Shortline Bus]

 

 

I see why people want the QM23 to go, but it's only one trip in each direction!! I really don't see what effect getting rid of the QM23 is. And it's not as useless as people think. There's a point to this route - it's there for a reason. It's common for more than 20 people to be on the bus, besides, it has an efficient route in Manhattan going on 34th Street. What the can do is eliminate the off-peak and weekend QM15; in fact the QM15 can see some reductions even weekdays. There needs to be weekend express service into the Rockaways, though.

 

 

Not to get off topic but related. The X29 in Brooklyn actually could be reduced to 3-4 trips in each peak direction to/from Midtown instead of running for 3-4 hours (about 8-9 trips in each direction currently as of March 2010) I been on the X29(not recently)about 2 years ago at about 530pm boarding near Fulton St and Bway. There was about 40 riders on the MCI when we got to the Battery Tunnel and thus being 2/3 full.

 

Instead of canning off a route like the X29, reducing it instead to couple of trips a day, along with encouraging riders on CI Avenue to use the nearby BM3 off peak hours on Ocean Ave makes much more sense imo. Other routes such as Brooklyn's BM4 and the Bronx's BXM4a Bedford Park and BXM6 Parkchester lines should be rush hour routes as well.

[B35 via Church]

I see why people want the QM23 to go, but it's only one trip in each direction!! I really don't see what effect getting rid of the QM23 is. And it's not as useless as people think. There's a point to this route - it's there for a reason. It's common for more than 20 people to be on the bus, besides, it has an efficient route in Manhattan going on 34th Street.

 

What the mta can do is eliminate the off-peak and weekend QM15; in fact the QM15 can see some reductions even weekdays. There needs to be weekend express service into the Rockaways, though.

 

That would just about offset each other.

 

anyway, every route is there for a reason... the question is, are they all justified in having keeping the way they currently are in the modern era... these aren't exactly new routes we're talkin about here.... this is the gist of what this entire discussion is.. or at the very least, has turned into...

 

outside of leaving it (the 23) alone, the two options are:

- cut the two total runs/day outright...

- have that one AM & one PM run (again, 2 total runs) run as QM15's

 

I would add add weekend BXM4a (Bedford park branch) and BXm2 west midtown to be canned. Why does Riverdale Ave riders even have '3' express bus routes when metro north hudson line is also nearby?

 

yeah, I went to the mall on 225th last night... instead of taking the to the to get home, I walked over to stop over there on 230th/broadway (in front the projects there)... the bxm2 came before the bxm1 did, so I boarded that... twas about 8:57pm.... only 2 other ppl. were on board... quite honestly, I expected to be the only passenger on the bus, as I've taken the exp. bus out of riverdale on prior occasions.... anyway, we got to 57th pretty quick... got on my , and that's all she wrote... lol...

 

you mention weekend service & there being 3 routes out of riverdale... fyi, the bxm18 doesn't run on weekends bro...

 

 

Not to get off topic but related. The X29 in Brooklyn actually could be reduced to 3-4 trips in each peak direction to/from Midtown instead of running for 3-4 hours (about 8-9 trips in each direction currently as of March 2010) I been on the X29(not recently)about 2 years ago at about 530pm boarding near Fulton St and Bway. There was about 40 riders on the MCI when we got to the Battery Tunnel and thus being 2/3 full.

 

it's still like that in 2010... x29's aren't empty, no where near it... What I will say is, the majority of the ridership on the x29 during the pm rush, is in lower manhattan (from what I depict, I'll say about 60-65% are boarding south of 23rd st)... am ridership (where the bulk of ppl. are getting off at, I don't know)... Instead of running x29's up to 57th, I believe all x29 runs should begin/end over there at the checkpoint over on 23rd/broadway; and as you say, reduce the # of runs & have the service operate on rush hrs. only....

[Amtrak7]

This is my belief:

 

Cut the BM4 all times, BM5 Saturdays, QM4 weekends, QM15 Saturdays, X27 Sundays, X28 weekends.

 

However, I would make a special holiday schedule for Presidents Day and all other holidays that run a Sat schedule. On Feb 15, I spotted a QM15 going outbound on the LIE with all seats full.

 

Also, on Black Friday, why run full express bus service? Run a Saturday schedule on most routes, and a weekday schedule on the X1.

 

Some people may conflict over this, but are weekend frequencies better than hourly needed on Bronx express routes or the X17C? (except BxM7, of course)

[Shortline Bus]

This is my belief:

 

Cut the BM4 all times, BM5 Saturdays, QM4 weekends, QM15 Saturdays, X27 Sundays, X28 weekends.

 

However, I would make a special holiday schedule for Presidents Day and all other holidays that run a Sat schedule. On Feb 15, I spotted a QM15 going outbound on the LIE with all seats full.

 

Also, on Black Friday, why run full express bus service? Run a Saturday schedule on most routes, and a weekday schedule on the X1.

 

Some people may conflict over this, but are weekend frequencies better than hourly needed on Bronx express routes or the X17C? (except BxM7, of course)

 

 

Amtrak my takes to your ideas.

 

1)agree 100%. Matter of fact all NYC Transit subways and buses local and express should run on a holiday aka Saturday schedule on day after Thanksgiving aka "Black Friday.' Ditto for Christmas and New Years Eve as well.

 

2)The X17j runs hourly most of the day on Saturday except for a small peak few hour period i think between 10am-3pm Midtown bound & SI Bound 3pm-last bus around 10pm when it has 30 minute headways. fYI. The X17c does not run on Sundays and major holidays.

 

3)I think the BXM1, BXM2 BXM10 and BXM11 all run every 30 minutes on Saturdays most of the day uintil around 8pm. Only the BXM11 and BXM7 Coop City branch needs 30 minute headways on Saturdays imo. The BXM2 should be canned on weekends and if Riverdale Ave riders want the west side via bus weekends should either take the BXM1 and transfer to crosstown bus or use the BX7 to 168th and transfer to the M2, M3 M4 and M5 to get to midtown. I am 99.9% sure, it's politics why now of the Bronx express buses were not on the doomesday list.

 

4)If you going to cut weekend X28 service you have to do it also for the X27 as well since they both share the same depot. I agree that Sunday service on the X27/28 needs to go.

 

 

I also agree with you (Amtrak) on all the other cuts you mentioned. Saturdays only the BM2 could be extended and start/end at Penn and Seaview in Spring Creek's Starret City to replace the BM5.

[Forest Glen]

This is my belief:

 

Cut the BM4 all times, BM5 Saturdays, QM4 weekends, QM15 Saturdays, X27 Sundays, X28 weekends.

 

However, I would make a special holiday schedule for Presidents Day and all other holidays that run a Sat schedule. On Feb 15, I spotted a QM15 going outbound on the LIE with all seats full.

 

Also, on Black Friday, why run full express bus service? Run a Saturday schedule on most routes, and a weekday schedule on the X1.

 

Some people may conflict over this, but are weekend frequencies better than hourly needed on Bronx express routes or the X17C? (except BxM7, of course)

 

If you add limited rush hour service to the BM4 then IAWTP

[checkmatechamp13]

 

Some people may conflict over this, but are weekend frequencies better than hourly needed on Bronx express routes or the X17C? (except BxM7, of course)

 

I think that the X17C should have at least limited Sunday service. It gets decent ridership Saturday and there is nothing running from the far South Shore of Staten Island to Manhattan except local buses to the ferry. As for Saturday service, I don't really think the X17 needs too much more service on the weekends. The buses are full but not packed. I can't really vouch for any other routes. The X1 and X10 also get good ridership, but since they already run every half hour Saturdays I don't think a service increase is really justified.

[checkmatechamp13]

 

 

I see why people want the QM23 to go, but it's only one trip in each direction!! I really don't see what effect getting rid of the QM23 is. And it's not as useless as people think. There's a point to this route - it's there for a reason. It's common for more than 20 people to be on the bus, besides, it has an efficient route in Manhattan going on 34th Street. What the can do is eliminate the off-peak and weekend QM15; in fact the QM15 can see some reductions even weekdays. There needs to be weekend express service into the Rockaways, though.

 

20 people is only 1/3rd of the bus, but still, it allows riders access to Penn Station and allows some people north of Jamaica Avenue a less crowded bus rather than have to get onto a QM15 that already has riders. If you want to eliminate it, then fine, but it is not a very expensive route to run, with just 1 trip in each direction.

[Amtrak7]

Only the BXM11 and BXM7 Coop City branch needs 30 minute headways on Saturdays imo.

 

Why do you think there needs to be 30min service under the subway? (BxM11)

[Grand Concourse]

If you add limited rush hour service to the BM4 then IAWTP

 

Again: why are you still so fixated on this route for? Does it impact you directly?

They have the B31 to Kings Highway. They want their express bus fix so much they'll take the BM3 on Ocean Av. The BM4 is going to make all stops anyway. That way the Bm3 will be even more efficient and can always use more buses.

[LRG]

Again: why are you still so fixated on this route for? Does it impact you directly?

They have the B31 to Kings Highway. They want their express bus fix so much they'll take the BM3 on Ocean Av. The BM4 is going to make all stops anyway. That way the Bm3 will be even more efficient and can always use more buses.

 

Exactly. I highly doubt he has ever used the route, let alone seen the buses that use it. On weekends it is empty. If the MTA were smart that route would have been cut from the get go on weekends.

[Shortline Bus]

Why do you think there needs to be 30min service under the subway? (BxM11)

 

 

Woops i meant the BXM10 Morris Park/Eastchester line should have 30 minute on Saturdays and not the BXM11. Another mistype.

[Grand Concourse]

Exactly. I highly doubt he has ever used the route, let alone seen the buses that use it. On weekends it is empty. If the MTA were smart that route would have been cut from the get go on weekends.

 

I think the BM4 should be cut entirely. Riders should just take the B31 to Bm3. If the BM3 needs more buses, it will use buses that were allocated for the Bm4. Plus I would think more people would be happier if the Bm1-3 all ran the D4500s. Leave the O5s for mainly the B100/103.

 

BM5 should still be annexed to the Bm2 and at Flatbush-Nostrand become a super express [no stops till Manhattan].

[Shortline Bus]

I think the BM4 should be cut entirely. Riders should just take the B31 to Bm3. If the BM3 needs more buses, it will use buses that were allocated for the Bm4. Plus I would think more people would be happier if the Bm1-3 all ran the D4500s. Leave the O5s for mainly the B100/103.

 

BM5 should still be annexed to the Bm2 and at Flatbush-Nostrand become a super express [no stops till Manhattan].

 

GC ok a question. There a sizble amount of riders on the BM5 who board at Linden Blvd/80th St (Brooklyn/Queens border) and also in Lindenwood along Condiut Ave before it goes non stop to/from Midtown. What replaces those riders?