Idea: The Abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch

[Joe]

It makes no sense to re-activate a LIRR line as subway, when the LIRR is for the most part cleaner, safer, higher service standards, faster, more room, all ready has the fleet to support the line, and no, the notion of "can't stand" its city stations is 100% false. If they dislike serving the city so much, why are they building the vital ESA, and possibly re-activating another in-city line older than this one, and in the process of planing the rebuilding of all the city zone stations and increasing service to/from LIC and flatbush?

 

If the LIRR is so interested in serving inter-city passengers, then why have so many city stations been closed through the years, whereas on the island not nearly as many have been shuttered...

 

Building ESA shows that their interest is midtown Manhattan, not serving residents of quiet Queens. Also, what line is being reactivated? What stations are being rebuilt? Increasing service to LIC? Since when?

[R110B]

there is no need for them(LIRR) to run the rockaway line again.

[MTR Admiralty]

It makes no sense to re-activate a LIRR line as subway, when the LIRR is for the most part cleaner, safer, higher service standards, faster, more room, all ready has the fleet to support the line, and no, the notion of "can't stand" its city stations is 100% false. If they dislike serving the city so much, why are they building the vital ESA, and possibly re-activating another in-city line older than this one, and in the process of planing the rebuilding of all the city zone stations and increasing service to/from LIC and flatbush?

Once is out of its financial funk, LIRR will have the reseouces to put this line back into service. We don't need another 15 mile subway route just to serve this short branch, especially since it all ready has the physical properties to handle LIRR pending a reconditioning of the trackbed. Putting subway would totally and completely change how trains go through the rest of the system, and how do you propose to link the to the LIRR? Build a huge billion dollar interchange station? That's what it would take. LIRR re-activate would simply restore the line to LIRR operation, rebuilding of stations along the route, and a new interlocking at the main line connection point. You're talking about converting an ROW to subway spec that is all ready main line LIRR spec. We don't need rapid transit there, we need main line railcar capacity, and run it at close intervals.

- A

Obviously fourteen points isn't enough. I'll give you yet another fourteen.

Mr Man's Fourteen Points-Part TWO

1. The East Side Access is built as a relief line. The LIRR has to join with Amtrak down the East River tunnel into Penn Station. The capacity at Penn Station is like an ever-expanding bubble. Sooner or later, it would burst. By constructing another Manhattan terminal, the LIRR could divert its riders there, relieving the tunnels and thereby freeing up pressure on Amtrak.

2. I have not heard of any official plans from the LIRR to add in-fill stations or reactivate closed stations. Think back to the late 1990s when the LIRR closed several stations along the Montauk Branch, down near the Brooklyn-Queens border, including Maspeth. Those stations showed little ridership and thus, it was not effective in keeping them. There is no incentive for them in managing those stations as few people use it.

3. Reactivating a long dead LIRR line for subway is absurd to your ears. But reactivating the ROW for a short shuttle is even more absurd to our ears. Think of it, half the line is already under NYCT control. Where else could this proposed shuttle terminate? The middle of nowhere?

4. Converting former railways into subway lines is NOT new. 7linefan has already brought up a good point with the Dyre Avenue Line.

5. As you have probably know, there is a project endorsed by the RPA, that plans to convert several underutilised/abandoned railway lines in the city for subway service, called the RX. This is another example of how more attention is focused on the subway than on resuscitating intramural commuter rail travel.

6. Close intervals on a LIRR line on this ROW is irony. Look at the juxtaposition you had set up here. Do you expect LIRR trains on this ROW to come every 2 minutes, say? How many trains are you going to send? How long will the route be? Will it affect other LIRR lines? Explain.

7. Mainline capacity, compared to rapid transit capacity, is inferior for the greater demand. Commuter rail capacity is primarily focused on seating as many people as possible, the main point about rapid transit is to fit as many people as possible.

8. Crowds on a subway line in this ROW will not be in Lexington Avenue proportions. There will be seats available at Rego Park or Forest Park. There may be very well, some standees, but you will not expect a QBL-esque situation or a Flushing scenario. The reason is, those neighbourhoods aren't that crowded. Even with passengers from JFK and Rockaway Park, the capacity is fairly tolerant.

9. Even if it is crowded, the subway could provide for the crowding. People will stand. Now what about the LIRR? How many standees could fit?

10. You will most likely have to purchase more LIRR railcars. The cost of maintaining them could be more expensive than maintaining a subway car. Think of the lavatories you have to clean regularly. How much tissue you have to provide for. All of these items must be accounted.

11. When I send the subway down from QBL to Rockaway Park, there will be NO LIRR interference. The track will be reserved for subway only, no other traffic would be run. A tunnel connection will be built from the QBL, linking the ROW to the said subway tunnel at White Point Junction.

12. The connection will be costly, but cost efficient and cost effective. The market is needed. The LIRR counterpart, on the other hand, will not.

13. If the LIRR had the true will to continue to run service on the debated ROW, it would have done so half a century ago. When the trestle was on fire, it should have defended the line to the death, to run it at any cost and not to allow the TA takeover to occur.

14. I understand that you were formerly serviced by SEPTA, an agency that has an emphasis on regional railways and suburban transport. But remember, the integral part of New York transportation is the subway. This is fact. Look at the MTA budget plans, more money and attention are focused on intramural transportation (especially the subway) than on anything else. We are in New York, not Philadelphia. We have to do what works for New York.

 

Another problem no one has mentioned here, if the subway were to be extended on this brach, more cars would be needed to keep headways the same. In addition, where are you going to store these new cars?

The same question can be raised for the LIRR shuttle: Where would you keep those cars? How will it impact existing LIRR service? As for the subway, it could use the yard at Rockaway Park, which is a lay-up yard. It could also go back to the QBL and proceed to Jamaica Yard. I'll use the as the example here. Now if the goes to Rockaway Park, say, via a connection to White Pot Junction and then straight down the ROW to Rockaway Park, it could use the cars at Jamaica Yard. There are already cars there. If there aren't enough, it could use cars from Pitkin Yard. Storage could be found at Rockaway Park Yard, which serves as a lay-up yard.

Then explain the IND Rockaway line. And by extension, the Dyre Avenue Line, formerly part of the NYW&B but converted to subway.

You've hit it right on the money.

More like i want to see LIRR stop being a shadow of its former self. LIRR had stations from whitepot junction all the way out to the last current station. If you're going to make it subway, you should not just make it on some 4 mile section haphazardly connecting to another line, do it all the way out, rebuild the rockaway wye to handle full time end to end service. Terminate the at broad channel. Let the handle it from there. Like i said, the system as configured cant handle service on that ROW, and yes i've been there once and seen photos taken in all 4 seasons.

 

When i say configured for LIRR i mean the loading gauge was for diesel and smaller (low stack) steam locos pulling 2, 3, or 5 85 foot cars. It's in about the same condition, and configured similarly to the currently disused newtown R8 line. I believe the lines were constructed using similar equipment and methods, the newtown line only being deactivated in 1983 vs in the 50's. We have a lot more tree & plant growth here, which somewhat equalizes the time difference.

 

 

- A

I'm not going to even bother going Wilson this time. I'll say this as direct as possible: It's not about what you WANT, it's about what everyone NEEDS.

 

You CANNOT terminate two different services at Broad Channel. It is illogical and can affect service with severe repercussions.

 

The picture you gave us means nothing to me at all. Does it show how your proposed line have an impact on commutes? Does it show people could get a one seat ride? Could it be cost efficient? As much as you would like the LIRR to revisit its former glory, it will not happen.

Building ESA shows that their interest is midtown Manhattan, not serving residents of quiet Queens. Also, what line is being reactivated? What stations are being rebuilt? Increasing service to LIC? Since when?

ESA's getting built to also relieve the East River tunnels as well as to relieve Penn Station.

[metsfan]

If the LIRR is so interested in serving inter-city passengers, then why have so many city stations been closed through the years, whereas on the island not nearly as many have been shuttered...

 

Building ESA shows that their interest is midtown Manhattan, not serving residents of quiet Queens. Also, what line is being reactivated? What stations are being rebuilt? Increasing service to LIC? Since when?

 

Funding has been an issue for LIRR since the PRR left them out to dry. It's amazing that it is as well run and not falling apart as is, it could be a lot worse.

 

- A

[R110B]

exactly more oprotunites to running a subway than liir.

[metsfan]

I'm not even going to argue, i have my reasons, and its obvious that none of you understand them, and that's ok, just agree to disagree.

 

There is not enough capacity on the (A)/© to get more trains out there for that service, there are not enough cars for the service even if there were capacity to move them in a practical speed, and most importantly, it's all ready a long ride on the . Why would you put even more of your eggs in one basket, and then send it to grandma ground shipping vs priority overnight?

 

Eastern queens and parts of bx need subway service, this can be LIRR. LIRR shuttered those branches because of decades of neglect & improper funding which scared people away, and i frankly don't blame them. Trains & stations of any kind in the 50's to the 70's were downright dangerous because of lack of preventative maintenance on tracks signals & rolling stock. Especially in the 70's. The line was electrified for LIRR service, but then the fiscal & social legacy of one Robert Moses caused the line to be taken out of service.

 

No, it's not about me wanting it to be LIRR, it's abut me wanting them to do what they had planned originally, which is have B div standards & allow both to serve the line, especially during G.O. & emergencies. Ya, both. But there's a problem. Since that era, they've changed the 3rd rail spec on LIRR, so subway cars cannot run on it. If you look at where the 2 branches of the split off, you could do LIRR to there more easily than to whitepot jct. That's all i'm saying. The interlocking at that junction could be rebuilt & a simple side platform station constructed to allow transfers to main line served trains. What some of you are calling for is a totally new right of way & all this other stuff connecting to the or . The city owns the land, but would have to purchase it outright for market value to build subway, if you get main line track you get a discount & tax breaks on it plus federal inclusion.

 

So, its not only a better tier of rail service, its also more practical financially & physically.

 

There i've said my piece.

 

- A

[MTR Admiralty]

Funding has been an issue for LIRR since the PRR left them out to dry. It's amazing that it is as well run and not falling apart as is, it could be a lot worse.

 

- A

Even if the LIRR has enough funds, it would use the funds to procure for new equipment and upgrade signals etc... it won't use the funds to erect another intramural line.

[MTR Admiralty]

So, its not only a better tier of rail service, its also more practical financially & physically.

 

There i've said my piece.

 

- A

 

It is a better tier of rail service in certain areas, but again, if you want to have an LIRR line inclusive in the city, it is neither practical financially nor physically for all my reasons stated above.

The glaring reason is the fact that a huge portion of the line is already in NYCT hands, so it would make even more sense if it was to be a subway line. However, if there was no fire or if there was funding available, the Rockaway Branch may as well continue today. However, given the fact that the NYCT took over a good chunk and used it for subway service and the fact that the LIRR does not want to invest much intramurally, there is no financial/physical incentive.

It really is about cost-effectiveness. How many people will ride it? Look at Bayside LIRR Station and all of those stations along the line between Little Neck and Flushing. How many of them use the LIRR everyday from those stations to Manhattan? Those residents either drive or, take a bus to the subway. Examine the fare structure of both systems.

Do you expect every rider on that line to work in Midtown? I doubt. A great number would work outside the walking distance of Midtown. Who can they do? Transfer to the subway at Penn or Woodside. You're going to dump an extra load of riders on the A, C, E, 1, 2, 3 or 7. A subway minimises such problems because the riders are already in the same system, in-system transfers are free. And perhaps, the line in Manhattan suits them a lot.

 

We, at least I, understand your points. However, they are flawed and does not show why we need a commuter rail along that stretch. It seems to me, that you have not been taking my posts seriously. I have asked REPETITIVELY where would your alignment end? Have you answered that question? I'm still expecting an answer.

[R110B]

they(LIRR) hardly can keep up with service and it always having canceled trains.

[Joe]

Funding has been an issue for LIRR since the PRR left them out to dry. It's amazing that it is as well run and not falling apart as is, it could be a lot worse.

 

- A

 

The LIRR runs on a humongous state subsidy these days. Without it, ticket prices would easily be double if not triple.

 

Also, once again I ask, which stations are being rebuilt? What line is being reactivated?

[Far Rock Depot]

the following is from me: a railfan, an engineering major who wants to design, AND a Rockaway resident for 19 years.

 

the RoW should be converted for subway use. If i had LIRR money, id take the LIRR. Instead I take the . Im tired of having to go thru brooklyn and at times lower manhattan to go to northern queens or Midtown. here's my idea: IF they get the money and demand, rebuild the RoW. Just south of Liberty junction, re-align the current tracks down to Racetrack station to allow a Flyover to split Liberty El service and RoW service. Whichever line they choose to use the RoW(i suggest the ) should terminate at Rock Park. The Cars they use for the Rock Pk Shuttle can be made to 8 car consists (and use the 5-6 sets reserved for Rock Pk Service)when the service runs up the RoW. Now you have access to 2 yards(pitkin & Rock PK. Reopen (And rename) the old Ozone PK station. space the stations apart similar to the SAS. (ex. Ozone PK, Atlantic ave, Jamaica ave etc.). Thatll help cut down the travel time. many residents here take the QBL and connect to the Q53 for midtown service. or just the Q53 to reach parts of northern queens. now as far as re creating the Hamilton Bch stop, Why? some bearly use the Howard Bch stop. who wants yet another stop on the rockaway line? the commute is long enough as it is.

[MTR Admiralty]

the following is from me: a railfan, an engineering major who wants to design, AND a Rockaway resident for 19 years.

 

the RoW should be converted for subway use. If i had LIRR money, id take the LIRR. Instead I take the . Im tired of having to go thru brooklyn and at times lower manhattan to go to northern queens or Midtown. here's my idea: IF they get the money and demand, rebuild the RoW. Just south of Liberty junction, re-align the current tracks down to Racetrack station to allow a Flyover to split Liberty El service and RoW service. Whichever line they choose to use the RoW(i suggest the ) should terminate at Rock Park. The Cars they use for the Rock Pk Shuttle can be made to 8 car consists (and use the 5-6 sets reserved for Rock Pk Service)when the service runs up the RoW. Now you have access to 2 yards(pitkin & Rock PK. Reopen (And rename) the old Ozone PK station. space the stations apart similar to the SAS. (ex. Ozone PK, Atlantic ave, Jamaica ave etc.). Thatll help cut down the travel time. many residents here take the QBL and connect to the Q53 for midtown service. or just the Q53 to reach parts of northern queens. now as far as re creating the Hamilton Bch stop, Why? some bearly use the Howard Bch stop. who wants yet another stop on the rockaway line? the commute is long enough as it is.

 

Well said. :tup:

[metsfan]

How to handle whitepot junction?

 

- A

[Far Rock Depot]

easy, about half a mile before it, bring the line underground. dig out a Jct similar to the one used for traind to leave the QBL and run under 41st ave to Queensbridge

[Joe]

How to handle whitepot junction?

 

- A

 

Around 63rd Drive, there are bellmouths present that were to be used for this very line. The bellmouth on the southbound track is actually a fully built flyover, ending on the south side of Queens Blvd (at the edge of construction). I'd say there was plenty of space in the area to construct a portal.

[Far Rock Depot]

Around 63rd Drive, there are bellmouths present that were to be used for this very line. The bellmouth on the southbound track is actually a fully built flyover, ending on the south side of Queens Blvd (at the edge of construction). I'd say there was plenty of space in the area to construct a portal.

 

but thats just for one track. I assume the would want access to both local and express tracks

[Joe]

True, the bellmouths are adjacent to the local tracks, but I don't see why some single crossovers couldn't be placed to allow express trains to access them.

[Far Rock Depot]

True, the bellmouths are adjacent to the local tracks, but I don't see why some single crossovers couldn't be placed to allow express trains to access them.

 

one good reason: Nostrand Jct (not sure of the exact name) on the IRT in Brooklyn. Get stuck on a or train that has to wait for a or to cross over infront. The QBL is the second highest passenger volume line in NYC. (The Lex line is first). delays delays delays. Thats why they did it when connecting the 63rd st line to Queens Bl

[Joe]

I think you mean Rogers Junction, which is just south of Franklin Avenue. I get what you're saying, but what's the other alternative? Close down the line for an unspecified amount of time so that the tracks can be "stretched" so you can have bellmouths between the local and express tracks (i.e. how (E)s head to Jamaica Center)?

[Far Rock Depot]

I think you mean Rogers Junction, which is just south of Franklin Avenue. I get what you're saying, but what's the other alternative? Close down the line for an unspecified amount of time so that the tracks can be "stretched" so you can have bellmouths between the local and express tracks (i.e. how (E)s head to Jamaica Center)?

 

it was done before with connecting the 63rd st line with Queens BL that creates the current route. and you will only see disruptions on weekends. use the bellmouths to create new local tracks and start diggin down between the lol and exp tracks for the new portals for the rockaway service. so you wont have local service between Roosevelt and 71 aves on weekends. whos not already used to something like that. remember, the queensbridge-QBL connecction was built between 1999 and 2003 appox.

[metsfan]

Huh?????? I meant to connect to LIRR. You'd take away a curved medium speed underpass to make some kind of tunnel?

 

Sorry that's nonsense. I have no more to say about this, it should be LIRR plain & simple.

 

- A

[MTR Admiralty]

Huh?????? I meant to connect to LIRR. You'd take away a curved medium speed underpass to make some kind of tunnel?

 

Sorry that's nonsense. I have no more to say about this, it should be LIRR plain & simple.

 

- A

Why should it connect to the LIRR in the first place if it's to be meant for subway service?

 

It's not plain and simple, having the ROW on the LIRR will have SERIOUS repercussions, I've said it many times. And you still haven't answered my question amid all of this circumlocution: If you want a shuttle, where would you end it?

It's not nonsense either, many of us have contributed serious and relevant points that show why the subway is more useful than a LIRR line down here. It's not about "heritage", it's about convenience.

[Far Rock Depot]

the old LIRR shuttle use to end at ozone park. and it was ended cause of low ridership. think realistic. the LIRR there WILL fail. again. a subway line to the QBL will work. nostalgia is over.

[MTR Admiralty]

the old LIRR shuttle use to end at ozone park. and it was ended cause of low ridership. think realistic. the LIRR there WILL fail. again. a subway line to the QBL will work. nostalgia is over.

Well put.

[soyintocable]

I live along Woodhaven Blvd and have seen this old train line my whole life. I had enjoyed reading this forum discussing the re-activation of this line for subway or LIRR service.

 

One thing this is not mention is that there is already alot of passenger demand for this line.

 

On Woodhaven Blvd., there are 3 bus lines operating from Queens Blvd. station (G, R, V) to the Roackaway Blvd Station for the (A line). They are the Q11 (used for local service and has at least 6 buses an hour), Q53 (provides limited express service and has at least 6 buses an hours) and the recently extended Q21 (provides 2 additional busses per hour).

 

I can tell everyone that these 14+ buses an hour are running full all day long. This only started when the Metrocard allowed free transfer between trains and buses in 1997. I have not read a study on passenger use of this bus lines but to me, it appears that 80-90 percent of this passenger traffic are people traveling through this area to get to another part of the city.

 

If the old train line running a few blocks east of Woodhaven was re-activated as a subway line extending south from the Queens Blvd lines, these passengers would not have to exit at the Queens Blvd/ Woodhaven Blvd station, walk a few blocks underground to get to the bus stop, crowd onto the 14+ per hour buses running on Woodhaven Blvd, then get off at Jamaica Ave. for the J and Z lines and Rockaway Blvd for the A line.

 

The problem I see is getting the new station as close to the old stations on the J and A lines to miniminize the walking on transfers.

 

P.S. Before the free transfer between subways and buses, the Q11 bus only ran 2 or 3 times and hour. The Q53 was operated by the Green Bus line and ran express from Roosevelt Ave station (E,F, 7) to Queens Blvd/Woodhaven Bld station then the Queens Blvd/63 ave station then back to Woodhaven by 63avenue to travel without stops to Broad channel and Rockaway Beach 116 street. They even charged a double fare to use the Q53 for a few years. (It was only after the MTA takeover of the Green Bus lines that the Q53 became a limited express route along Woodhaven Blvd.)

 

This is my 2-cents worth to justify re-activating the old rail line for subway use.