Jump to content
Attention: In order to reply to messages, create topics, have access to other features of the community you must sign up for an account.

What's the purpose for J/Z skipping stops between Marcy Av & Myrtle-Bway?


bstar1

Recommended Posts

I really don't understand the purpose for the (J)(Z) skipping stops between Marcy and Myrtle. After Myrtle (J)(Z) merges back to the loc track, and the(M2) has to merge from the loc onto the Metropolitan Av route. (vice-versa)

Link to comment
Share on other sites


The express run would make more sense if it continued all the way to Broadway Junction, but then you would need an extra line that would provide service to the local stations bypassed by the express line east of Myrtle Ave.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The express run would make more sense if it continued all the way to Broadway Junction, but then you would need an extra line that would provide service to the local stations bypassed by the express line east of Myrtle Ave.

 

The MTA could run the (J) local and the (Z) express between Myrtle Avenue and Broadway Junction. However, during middays, there would be no express

service.

Unfortunately, if there was another line that went to the local stops between Myrtle Avenue and Broadway Junction, it would somehow have to fit in with the (J)(M2)(Z) over the Willimasburg Bridge. If the (Z) were cut to make room for the new line, there would be no skip-stop on Jamaica Avenue, increasing the trip time along that segment.

 

As for why the (J)/(Z) do the express run, it is probably to allow the trains to come in at Myrtle Avenue at the same time as the (M2) train. The riders from the Myrtle Avenue Line have a chance to transfer to a faster service, instead of going through the 3 extra stops (obviously the point of any express is to provide faster service).

The express service alleviates some of the problems of the Myrtle Avenue interlocking, which is at-grade. The (M2) comes in on the local track, lets its passengers transfer to the (J)/(Z), while the (J)/(Z) come in on the express track avoiding the merge with the (M2). By the time the (M2) reaches Marcy Avenue, the express has already gone ahead lessening the chance of a conflict with the express at Marcy Avenue (it was avoided altogether at Myrtle Avenue).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The point of the express is crowd control. You already have a packed J train. why make it make 3 more stops when you have a less crowed M that can do the job.

 

Exactly, good post take it from a T/O who works the (J) Line during the week...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Exactly, good post take it from a T/O who works the (J) Line during the week...

 

That's why there needs to be an Express from BJ to Marcy the (J) or the (Z) take your pick...

 

Plus with the (M) coming into play not serving the same Lower Manhattan stations as (J)/(Z) is more evident that the something needs to be all local. To have to catch the (M) just to transfer back to the (J)/(Z) is going to piss people off, especially when they see (J)/(Z)'s flying past the (M) to Marcy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The express service alleviates some of the problems of the Myrtle Avenue interlocking, which is at-grade. The (M2) comes in on the local track, lets its passengers transfer to the (J)/(Z), while the (J)/(Z) come in on the express track avoiding the merge with the (M2). By the time the (M2) reaches Marcy Avenue, the express has already gone ahead lessening the chance of a conflict with the express at Marcy Avenue (it was avoided altogether at Myrtle Avenue).

In the other direction though, the problem is exacerbated instead of lessened. I made this set of track diagrams a while back when people were arguing for an express from Broadway Junction, and it illustrates just what kind of bottlenecking problems the trains can run into (bottlenecks circled in red):

r9ig04.png

The current PM rush pattern suffers from the same problem illustrated in the last track diagram minus the (Z) running express to Broadway Junction.

 

They can throw in a lot of money to fix the junction and add an express track beyond Broadway Junction and implement true express service. This would involve the installation of a single flying track over the Jamaica tracks and via a street further down which would end up connecting to the Metropolitan Avenue-bound local track from the right (thus, no connection to the express track possible if they ever rebuild it between Broadway–Myrtle and Myrtle–Wyckoff).

21n40hz.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think one of the main reasons why the (J)/(Z) doesn't run local during that stretch is because it'd get too many Jamaica Line riders upset. Sure, it only speeds up their ride by three minutes... but any trek from Cypress Hills or 75th Street is already a good amount of time.

 

The whole thing's psychological, really - express trains in general are seen as a haven to rush hour chaos. I've seen some pretty ticked off (D) train riders when their train has to stop at 23rd and 14th. Heck, I get annoyed by the (N) stopping at 49th on my way to 57th. :tup:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

the reason why they have skip-stop and exp service is to Share Riders between stations and keep up on the Run interval with the aditional 5to8 depending on the season (Z)trains 1way full Route Run and run lightly to broadway jct and pm rush start@chauncey to broad st and then full route to jamaica

then deadhead back to ENY Relay uppper tracks.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Heck, I get annoyed by the stopping at 49th on my way to 57th.

 

Lol, so true.

 

@CenSin

 

That is a great plan in theory but Broadway is so tight that you would have to knock down a black of buildings to do it and then run new elevated track along a residential street. It probably isn't worth the hassle. Would it make more sense to build a new upper level to Myrtle Ave and have the connection further west?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would have the (J)/(Z) service this way:

 

Eliminate all skip-stop service

(J) - via Nassau Street Local, All times, To Jamaica Center/Broad Street

(Z) - via Nassau Street Express, Rush hours, via express between Marcy and Broadway Junction, via 4 Av Local, via West End local to Bay Parkway

(M2) - via Nassau Street/6 Av/Queens Blvd Local, Metropolitan Av - Forest Hills - 71 Av, like the(M)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lol, so true.

 

@CenSin

 

That is a great plan in theory but Broadway is so tight that you would have to knock down a black of buildings to do it and then run new elevated track along a residential street. It probably isn't worth the hassle. Would it make more sense to build a new upper level to Myrtle Ave and have the connection further west?

I checked satellite images and it appears to be feasible to do it as suggested in the track diagrams above. The other option would be to send the Metropolitan Avenue-bound track south along Lewis Avenue curving northeast at the Lewis Avenue and Myrtle Avenue intersection and rising to the currently abandoned upper level.

 

I would have the (J)/(Z) service this way:

 

Eliminate all skip-stop service

(J) - via Nassau Street Local, All times, To Jamaica Center/Broad Street

(Z) - via Nassau Street Express, Rush hours, via express between Marcy and Broadway Junction, via 4 Av Local, via West End local to Bay Parkway

(M2) - via Nassau Street/6 Av/Queens Blvd Local, Metropolitan Av - Forest Hills - 71 Av, like the(M)

Not only would this not save time for riders, but it would have the potential to cause some ugly delays. Imagine this:

  1. Metropolitan Avenue-bound (M2) at Myrtle Avenue

  2. Forest Hills-bound (M2) about to enter Myrtle Avenue

  3. Broad Street-bound (J) about to enter Myrtle Avenue on the local track

  4. Bay Parkway-bound (Z) about to enter Myrtle Avenue on the express track

 

Obviously, this will not be a common occurance, but just the fact that this worst case scenario is possible makes the service pattern bad. In fact, a subset of this scenario is very likely to happen during rush hours. Any combination (out of 11 possible combinations) other than 2+3 or 2+4 will cause delays.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Actually a Broad Street-bound (J) and a Forest Hills-bound (M) would cause delays as well.

 

I honestly don't advocate eliminating skip-stop service. The ride from Jamaica to Broadway Junction would be extremely long. Maybe if the (Z) went skip-stop after Broadway Junction, it might work, but other than that, the riders east of about Woodhaven Boulevard would pack onto the (E), and since the (M2)/(V) combo doesn't take riders off of the (E), that would make the trains extremely crowded.

 

Also, I don't see a need to make the line that long. While the (M2) made the most sense out of the 3 lines to go to Brooklyn, since it is going to midtown, there would have to be some other way of getting trains to Brooklyn. Even with an express section, the (Z) would be delay-prone, especially at Myrtle Avenue. Maybe if the budget gets fixed, there could be a train from Canarsie to Bay Parkway or something.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Actually a Broad Street-bound (J) and a Forest Hills-bound (M) would cause delays as well.

Whoops. I mean 2+4 and 3+4. I didn't have the numbers while editing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Actually a Broad Street-bound (J) and a Forest Hills-bound (M) would cause delays as well.

 

I honestly don't advocate eliminating skip-stop service. The ride from Jamaica to Broadway Junction would be extremely long. Maybe if the (Z) went skip-stop after Broadway Junction, it might work, but other than that, the riders east of about Woodhaven Boulevard would pack onto the (E), and since the (M2)/(V) combo doesn't take riders off of the (E), that would make the trains extremely crowded.

 

Also, I don't see a need to make the line that long. While the (M2) made the most sense out of the 3 lines to go to Brooklyn, since it is going to midtown, there would have to be some other way of getting trains to Brooklyn. Even with an express section, the (Z) would be delay-prone, especially at Myrtle Avenue. Maybe if the budget gets fixed, there could be a train from Canarsie to Bay Parkway or something.

 

Well as I have said in the past: there should be an express track going down the full length of Jamaica Av.

jamaciaelredone.jpg

On Jamaica Av- the 'outer track' would be more or less an 'emergency' track but used mainly as for layups. It could be used to speed up trains for the am rush hours.

The 'middle track' would be the main express track and use a flyover at cypress hills so it doesn't interfere with s/b service.

 

The map was too small to draw up, but I would've added a set of switches to the north and south of the Woodhaven stop to add more flexibility.

Thus the (Z) would bypass a bunch of stops and in the end be a 'short' enough line to allow for an extension into southern Brooklyn in place of the (M2). I don't know how far to send it, but I think at least 9th Av would be good.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well as I have said in the past: there should be an express track going down the full length of Jamaica Av.

jamaciaelredone.jpg

On Jamaica Av- the 'outer track' would be more or less an 'emergency' track but used mainly as for layups. It could be used to speed up trains for the am rush hours.

The 'middle track' would be the main express track and use a flyover at cypress hills so it doesn't interfere with s/b service.

 

The map was too small to draw up, but I would've added a set of switches to the north and south of the Woodhaven stop to add more flexibility.

Thus the (Z) would bypass a bunch of stops and in the end be a 'short' enough line to allow for an extension into southern Brooklyn in place of the (M2). I don't know how far to send it, but I think at least 9th Av would be good.

 

Not bad. That structure that sits atop of Alabama Avenue could be extended and used for an express bypass, stopping only at Woodhaven Boulevard.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not bad. That structure that sits atop of Alabama Avenue could be extended and used for an express bypass, stopping only at Woodhaven Boulevard.

Actually, it might even be a good idea to make it skip even Woodhaven Boulevard; it saves money and makes the trip a super-express taking riders off the (E).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I really don't understand the purpose for the (J)(Z) skipping stops between Marcy and Myrtle. After Myrtle (J)(Z) merges back to the loc track, and the(M2) has to merge from the loc onto the Metropolitan Av route. (vice-versa)

 

Saves time during the rush for J/Z riders and keeps some riders off those trains during the rush. Simple as that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not bad. That structure that sits atop of Alabama Avenue could be extended and used for an express bypass, stopping only at Woodhaven Boulevard.

 

Yup, I think that's what the purpose of the 'Alabama launchpad' was supposed to be. It would be so much nicer if the Jamaica Av el segment was built so the train can skip those stops and make the trip much faster. Anything that cuts out the Crescent St curve makes the ride better.

Actually, it might even be a good idea to make it skip even Woodhaven Boulevard; it saves money and makes the trip a super-express taking riders off the (E).

 

I thought of that initially, but I think Woodhaven is more a compromise to give Jamaica el residents an incentive to support adding in the 3rd set of tracks. Otherwise they'll block any proposals of the express track that does nothing for them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

At that point would it just make more sense to open a station on the LIRR Atlantic Ave line and run some DMUs?

 

Why the hell would you run DMUs on an electrified line?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Saves time during the rush for J/Z riders and keeps some riders off those trains during the rush. Simple as that.

When both M and J arrives at Myrtle PM rush, they usually have to wait for each other to leave. May be if they put J on the loc track, and M on the exp track, that would make it better. They could actually leave the station at the same time, instead of waiting to see which train is leaving first.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When both M and J arrives at Myrtle PM rush, they usually have to wait for each other to leave. May be if they put J on the loc track, and M on the exp track, that would make it better. They could actually leave the station at the same time, instead of waiting to see which train is leaving first.

 

And what if a J is coming S/B towards Myrtle at that exact moment? Won't matter how you arrange the queens bound trains you're still jammed up.

 

Lots of other factors could jack things up too.

 

Last I checked, Those trains run 5 minute headways (J) every 10 (Z) every 10 during the rush. Fit (M)'s in between. There's plenty of cushion time to wait for a train to clear the switches should that problem arise.

 

Not to mention ridership patterns dictate that the (M) has more room to take on passengers bound for stations between Marcy and Myrtle so it makes sense to keep those people off the (J)(Z)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.