A Weird MNRR Experience

[gregorygrice]

Ok so I'm on the 7:25 Local Train to White Plains from GCT sitting in the conductor's area of the second car, which is that seat thats open where you have a front window view but all you see is the next train car thats coupled (if you didn't know) When we arrive at Scarsdale. After about 2 minutes the door doesn't open. Then I see one on the conductors running towards the end of the train. I'm thinking, maybe someone got hurt or something. So I look through the conductor's window (No I didn't stick my head out) and guess what I see: No platform. So I'm like WTF? Then the train starts to move backwards, and you know people start to freak out. Turns out, the engineer missed the station and half of the 8 car train was not on the platform.

 

Can't the engineer get in big trouble for this?

[Rutgers Tube]

Ok so I'm on the 7:25 Local Train to White Plains from GCT sitting in the conductor's area of the second car, which is that seat thats open where you have a front window view but all you see is the next train car thats coupled (if you didn't know) When we arrive at Scarsdale. After about 2 minutes the door doesn't open. Then I see one on the conductors running towards the end of the train. I'm thinking, maybe someone got hurt or something. So I look through the conductor's window (No I didn't stick my head out) and guess what I see: No platform. So I'm like WTF? Then the train starts to move backwards, and you know people start to freak out. Turns out, the engineer missed the station and half of the 8 car train was not on the platform.

 

Can't the engineer get in big trouble for this?

 

GG, I've rode ten-car consists that have missed entire eight-car platforms. The engineer had to hold a whopper of a brake, come to a complete stop before he was able to flip the reverser and then he needed a spotter because only six cars opened and the platform had bridgeplates set up. I remember the engineer chuckling and saying "Whoops! Missed that one. . . ."

 

Platform overruns are very common during the fall when leaves drop from the trees, become wet and turn to a gelatin-like crapola on the rails. "Slip-slide" is what this condition is referred to, and it has been a major cause of wheel flat spots in the past, especially before the M7A's had their on-board computer systems adjusted to better handle this. Ice and snow are also common causes of overruns, especially when spotting for bridgeplates.

 

Engineers are required to be qualified on the trackage they operate before they work revenue service trains. Under ideal weather and lighting conditions, platform overruns shouldn't, and usually don't happen. However, I can think of a few times where a hard stop was followed by the acrid smell of crispy-fried brake lining and a loud air dryer-dump. Of course, the New Haven equipment is garbage and quite often, the dynamic braking system fails, causing the engineer to rely solely on the friction brakes to bring the train to a halt.

 

Occasionally, I'll hear a pulse code alert, indicating a signal downgrade, just as the train makes a station stop. I'd imagine that a platform overrun AND a penalty brake application might stir the hornets nest up in at RCC.

 

Truckie or Jay, can one of you gentlemen help me with this one? Thanks.

[gregorygrice]

GG, I've rode ten-car consists that have missed entire eight-car platforms. The engineer had to hold a whopper of a brake, come to a complete stop before he was able to flip the reverser and then he needed a spotter because only six cars opened and the platform had bridgeplates set up. I remember the engineer chuckling and saying "Whoops! Missed that one. . . ."

 

Platform overruns are very common during the fall when leaves drop from the trees, become wet and turn to a gelatin-like crapola on the rails. "Slip-slide" is what this condition is referred to, and it has been a major cause of wheel flat spots in the past, especially before the M7A's had their on-board computer systems adjusted to better handle this. Ice and snow are also common causes of overruns, especially when spotting for bridgeplates.

 

Engineers are required to be qualified on the trackage they operate before they work revenue service trains. Under ideal weather and lighting conditions, platform overruns shouldn't, and usually don't happen. However, I can think of a few times where a hard stop was followed by the acrid smell of crispy-fried brake lining and a loud air dryer-dump. Of course, the New Haven equipment is garbage and quite often, the dynamic braking system fails, causing the engineer to rely solely on the friction brakes to bring the train to a halt.

 

Occasionally, I'll hear a pulse code alert, indicating a signal downgrade, just as the train makes a station stop. I'd imagine that a platform overrun AND a penalty brake application might stir the hornets nest up in at RCC.

 

Truckie or Jay, can one of you gentlemen help me with this one? Thanks.

 

Thanks for the info buddy:tup: I did know about the wheel flats because I used to report them! It was an 8 car set and he didn't brake hard though? So it was weird.

[Joe]

Hey, shit happens. I've heard of a crew on the LIRR forgetting to stop at Woodside after leaving NYP.

[St Louis Car 09]

Hey, shit happens. I've heard of a crew on the LIRR forgetting to stop at Woodside after leaving NYP.

LOL WTF!!

[FamousNYLover]

Not only that, before (NJT) fare hike on June 1st (forgot what year), when I went to Philadelphia via 9:17am Northeast Corridor Direct Express from Newark to Priceston Junction, (NJT) stop at EWR Station by mistake or maybe they were letting someone forgot on wrong train?

Because of that, I almost miss SEPTA R7 connection.

[GojiMet86]

Hey, shit happens. I've heard of a crew on the LIRR forgetting to stop at Woodside after leaving NYP.

 

Woodside is hard to miss, don't you think?

[HomeBall]

Well first off all the lower Harlem Line is notorious for slip slide. A little bit of leaves and just the right amount of water on the tracks can cause a train to slide past a station. If there was light rain when this happened that's probably the cause.

[gregorygrice]

Well first off all the lower Harlem Line is notorious for slip slide. A little bit of leaves and just the right amount of water on the tracks can cause a train to slide past a station. If there was light rain when this happened that's probably the cause.

 

It was a clear night though... :eek:

[Paul P]

Woodside is hard to miss, don't you think?

 

No, not all tracks have platforms.

[metsfan]

Yea, you don't need to report flat spots, the crew can hear them.:cool:

 

Sometimes the brakes get funky and stick them jam on, a rolling wheel providing braking is far more effective than a locked wheel sliding. Also, the slippery rail can affect braking, if the gunk builds up on the wheel, then the tread brakes release then apply the glob can be caught under the shoes causing the brakes to lose effectiveness, thankfully that only usually happens on low speed conditions.

 

- A

[Rutgers Tube]

Turns out, the engineer missed the station and half of the 8 car train was not on the platform.

 

Can't the engineer get in big trouble for this?

 

Going back to your original question regarding some sort of penalty for overruns and a consequent reverse move, NORAC and GCOR each have multiple rules regarding reverse moves, movement against the direction of traffic, authorization for reverse movements, reverse move requirements, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. . . .

 

NORAC specifies reverse movements in Rules 116, 402, 501 and 502. Likewise, GCOR specifies reverse movements in Rules 6.13, 6.25, 14.6 and 15.3. Without going into detail, reverse moves in certain areas require certain protections such as flagging and a qualified employee such as a conductor present on the head end of the train moving in reverse with positive signal communication established, a working conductor's brake valve and speed restrictions depending on the territory and distance moved; permission from RTC; and, from what I understand, an emergency brake application test is required by the FRA in order to evaluate the condition of the dump valve (conductor's brake valve). This last test would be especially useful if the train were to come in contact some sort of track-borne object (animal, tree, rubbish, etc.) and it was found that the brake pipe or any apparatus were damaged. If so, the dump valve would not work, and should an emergency arise that requires a pull by the conductor, there might be an even bigger emergency. *Please note that an emergency brake test is only what I've heard coming from locomotive engineers and I've not yet verified this to be an official regulation as per FRA mandates.

 

I'm pretty sure that "blind shoves" (reverse movements without a spotter on the now-leading end) are illegal, or at least not recommended. Sidings might be different, but I can't see a blind shove, even for less than the full length of the train, allowed in dark or high-speed CTC territory. The ACSES system may be slightly more permissive of this than the current MNRR cab signalling system. Regardless, those are topics for another thread, and I've yet to be on a train that made a reverse movement for more than the length of the train, without a spotter and buzzers used for signalling and moving at a rate of speed exceeding Restricted Speed. Most of the shoves I've seen have been for less than a car length.

 

The MNRR rulebook specifies something along the lines of the following:

 

Should a passenger train running in Centralized Traffic Control (CTC) overrun a platform, a reverse move can be made without the permission of the Rail Traffic Controller (RTC) if both a) part of the train is already adjacent to the platform; and the leading end of the movement will not stop beyond the platform limit.

 

However, should the train NOT stop adjacent to the overrun platform, the train crew must first contact the RTC, who must in turn notify following train traffic to come to a stop. Upon any trailing traffic coming to a stop, the first train may receive permission by the RTC for a reverse movement to a specified location, which cannot be passed.

 

Again, engineers are required to become familiarized with any trackage before running in revenue service; still, overruns do occur from time to time. An overrun due to slip-slide conditions is different from an overrun due to a failed dynamic braking system which itself is different from simple inattention. Regular commuters will see the first two causes once a year or more. The last cause should rarely be witnessed, especially now with FRA restrictions being so tight and railroads, especially commuter railroads, enforcing strict penalties for any employee violation, even minor ones. Railroad rules and regulations are much more complex than this, but this is the meat and potatoes of the reverse movement meal.

[gregorygrice]

Going back to your original question regarding some sort of penalty for overruns and a consequent reverse move, NORAC and GCOR each have multiple rules regarding reverse moves, movement against the direction of traffic, authorization for reverse movements, reverse move requirements, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. . . .

 

NORAC specifies reverse movements in Rules 116, 402, 501 and 502. Likewise, GCOR specifies reverse movements in Rules 6.13, 6.25, 14.6 and 15.3. Without going into detail, reverse moves in certain areas require certain protections such as flagging and a qualified employee such as a conductor present on the head end of the train moving in reverse with positive signal communication established, a working conductor's brake valve and speed restrictions depending on the territory and distance moved; permission from RTC; and, from what I understand, an emergency brake application test is required by the FRA in order to evaluate the condition of the dump valve (conductor's brake valve). This last test would be especially useful if the train were to come in contact some sort of track-borne object (animal, tree, rubbish, etc.) and it was found that the brake pipe or any apparatus were damaged. If so, the dump valve would not work, and should an emergency arise that requires a pull by the conductor, there might be an even bigger emergency. *Please note that an emergency brake test is only what I've heard coming from locomotive engineers and I've not yet verified this to be an official regulation as per FRA mandates.

 

I'm pretty sure that "blind shoves" (reverse movements without a spotter on the now-leading end) are illegal, or at least not recommended. Sidings might be different, but I can't see a blind shove, even for less than the full length of the train, allowed in dark or high-speed CTC territory. The ACSES system may be slightly more permissive of this than the current MNRR cab signalling system. Regardless, those are topics for another thread, and I've yet to be on a train that made a reverse movement for more than the length of the train, without a spotter and buzzers used for signalling and moving at a rate of speed exceeding Restricted Speed. Most of the shoves I've seen have been for less than a car length.

 

The MNRR rulebook specifies something along the lines of the following:

 

Should a passenger train running in Centralized Traffic Control (CTC) overrun a platform, a reverse move can be made without the permission of the Rail Traffic Controller (RTC) if both a) part of the train is already adjacent to the platform; and the leading end of the movement will not stop beyond the platform limit.

 

However, should the train NOT stop adjacent to the overrun platform, the train crew must first contact the RTC, who must in turn notify following train traffic to come to a stop. Upon any trailing traffic coming to a stop, the first train may receive permission by the RTC for a reverse movement to a specified location, which cannot be passed.

 

Again, engineers are required to become familiarized with any trackage before running in revenue service; still, overruns do occur from time to time. An overrun due to slip-slide conditions is different from an overrun due to a failed dynamic braking system which itself is different from simple inattention. Regular commuters will see the first two causes once a year or more. The last cause should rarely be witnessed, especially now with FRA restrictions being so tight and railroads, especially commuter railroads, enforcing strict penalties for any employee violation, even minor ones. Railroad rules and regulations are much more complex than this, but this is the meat and potatoes of the reverse movement meal.

 

Thanks a bunch for that NORAC/ MNRR info. I gotta loom in my NORAC book again. So I guess they did follow the rules because they did have a comductor run to the end car and spot.

[Rutgers Tube]

Thanks a bunch for that NORAC/ MNRR info. I gotta loom in my NORAC book again. So I guess they did follow the rules because they did have a comductor run to the end car and spot.

 

Whether or not the RTC was contacted, and if an emergency brake test was performed, if that really is an FRA regulation would be the official tell-tale apples as to whether or not proper protocol was followed. If it really was a two-minute wait and the overrun was by four cars, I'd imagine that the RTC was notified, especially considering how congested the Harlem Line is at the time of day, with both north- and southbound traffic stopping at White Plains every few minutes.

 

Also, the interlocking at CP 119 "SCAR" is just south of the station with switches from 2 Track to 1 Track and vice versa, making it all the more important to notify RTC, since trains are generally not allowed to make a reverse move beyond interlocking limits. In this case, the 1 Track platform (typically northbound trains stop here) actually extends its southern end just into SCAR interlocking. However, seeing as though the 1 Track platform can accept twleve cars and your train was eight, there shouldn't have been a problem. Again, however, because of line congestion at that time, I can't imagine the RTC NOT being notified and issuing permission for the reverse move. Otherwise, I think that the cars not on the platform would have been cut out, and only the doors at the platform would have been opened.

[HomeBall]

Again, however, because of line congestion at that time, I can't imagine the RTC NOT being notified and issuing permission for the reverse move.

 

Well, the whole reason for having that rule is so that the move can be made without the permission of the RTC so that is there is a lot of traffic things don't have to be slowed down even more for this kind of reverse move. MNR rules also state that a train cannot enter the limits of the platform when on a restricted cab until it is seen that the track is clear for the entire length of platform.

[Rutgers Tube]

Well, the whole reason for having that rule is so that the move can be made without the permission of the RTC so that is there is a lot of traffic things don't have to be slowed down even more for this kind of reverse move. MNR rules also state that a train cannot enter the limits of the platform when on a restricted cab until it is seen that the track is clear for the entire length of platform.

 

Which would require the assistance of a qualified spotter on the end opposite the engineer.

[HomeBall]

Which would require the assistance of a qualified spotter on the end opposite the engineer.

 

Yes, all of which is part of Rule 14-J(2)