Student MetroCards

[Grand Concourse]

But the points are:

- it should be a DOE problem and they should fund it.

- the MTA is already broke as it is, how many more cuts/fare hikes can they keep up?*

 

*this hurts everyone especially the poor parents cuz they'll need to pay more and need to be away from home for longer due to fewer trains/buses running.

[QM1to6Ave]

My point exactly. From the start the D4500s were just overkill for MTA Bus. At least the O5s could've been put on the local buses than to dead head empty to the depot or stay in manhattan till they are needed again for the PM rush.

This is not to say kill all the express routes, like some have said: QM1, x1, x17, etc. are packed. I would have no problems if those got MORE buses at the expense of other lesser used bus lines.

 

I remember reading on this forum that the MCI's cost around 500,000 dollars, which is less than the new hybrids, and considering that they hold more passengers than the 05's, and run on the highway, which increases their MPG, they are not overkill when used on busy lines like the ones you mention. It comes down to maximizing their use, and putting 05's on emptier runs (now that many are being retired anyway, though, it is pretty much a useless idea).

 

In terms of those who posted about paying the actual value of a ride, a local bus ride should also cost more than 2.25, especially on the quieter lines where subsidies do not fully offset the per rider cost, so that is not really a great argument to make, because everyone should really be paying more, but you also need to keep prices relatively affordable.

 

And I definitely approve of giving the QM1 more buses at the expense of others, hehe. :tup::tup::tup:

[Grand Concourse]

But the problem is the MCIs are diesel only and the MTA is trying to comply with standards to have a more environmentally cleaner fleet- thus the hybrids.

 

Sure there are local bus routes out there that are empty as well, but they run back and forth continually picking up riders in both directions*. Express buses goes out to Manhattan and either stays there or deadheads [runs empty] picking up no riders to either pick up more riders or to just go back to the depot.

At least with the O5s, they could be put onto the local bus routes and put into service than to go all the way back to the depot of origin and do nothing.

 

*and I'm not bitching about the current local bus cuts. I'm all for efficiency on the local bus area as well. Of the cuts the B2 is the one that kinda affects me the most. But I can still take the b82 or B9 if I needed to get to the brighton line.

[mark1447]

They shouldnt get any free rides, especially a lot of em abuse these cards when school is NOT in session. And many students Fare beat like crazy after school.. Even when they have passes! Not all do this mind you!

 

should of at LEAST charged them 1.10$ like Seniors/Disabled so they can gain something!!

[Grand Concourse]

My point exactly. It shouldn't be either free rides or nothing. At least have a middle ground.

 

Oh 'mark', I sent you a pm.

[B35 via Church]

In terms of those who posted about paying the actual value of a ride, a local bus ride should also cost more than 2.25, especially on the quieter lines where subsidies do not fully offset the per rider cost, so that is not really a great argument to make, because everyone should really be paying more, but you also need to keep prices relatively affordable.

Well said.

 

....and it's about time someone brought up the "actual value" of riding a local line.... everytime you read about the "actual value" of a ride in the transit community, it's about an express bus...

[QM1to6Ave]

But the problem is the MCIs are diesel only and the MTA is trying to comply with standards to have a more environmentally cleaner fleet- thus the hybrids.

 

Sure there are local bus routes out there that are empty as well, but they run back and forth continually picking up riders in both directions*. Express buses goes out to Manhattan and either stays there or deadheads [runs empty] picking up no riders to either pick up more riders or to just go back to the depot.

At least with the O5s, they could be put onto the local bus routes and put into service than to go all the way back to the depot of origin and do nothing.

 

*and I'm not bitching about the current local bus cuts. I'm all for efficiency on the local bus area as well. Of the cuts the B2 is the one that kinda affects me the most. But I can still take the b82 or B9 if I needed to get to the brighton line.

 

There are new hybrid MCI's that the MTA could purchase when they look to update the express fleet- they have been around for a little while now, and I am surprised they haven't been purchased yet.

 

Putting 05's on local routes in between express routes would be a logistical nightmare in terms of keeping to the timetables and mixing up the depots and routes of NYCT/MTA Bus- I cannot see that ever happening, but you never know.

[engineerboy6561]

Heard on 1010 Wins that it seems the MTA has caved to the pressure groups and it means free rides for another year. A total loss for the rest of us paying commuters.

 

Even half fare cards would've been a better solution [mainly to weed out those that want or don't want an education].

 

 

You really need to learn to think before you speak. I admit that this is money that could have been used to save jobs or prevent cutbacks, but this entire "cry broke" rigamarole is simply an excuse to create zero-sum games where none should exist. Why should you, the paying commuter who is tired of piss-poor service and unreasonable fares, I, the high school student who is part of a family of four living on $35-45,000 a year and really needs the student pass to do school-sponsored independent research in Brooklyn on a near-daily basis, and practically every other little guy involved with (including the workers, who are usually the first target when times get hard) have to constantly quarrel like dogs over a half-chewed T-bone for basic corporate decency, user-friendliness, and service quality? Frankly, if we spent half the time organizing pressure campaigns as a unit and presented a unified list of demands and proposals to that we did quarreling over whose basic needs deserve priority attention we might actually be able to make a noticeable dent in service cuts, fare hikes, and other assorted crap coming out of their headquarters.

 

Regarding the topic at hand (Student Metrocards), I agree with GC... why does it have to be full fare cards? I remember you had the old bus passes, and the 1/2 fare passes... they got rid of the passes, and introduced the student metrocards....

 

you know what I find w/ the student metro's.... kids rely on these things, only during the times they're NOT supposed to be used... that is, for late night travel, and weekend travel.... worse, you have some parents/adults opting to use their kids' student metro's to try and get over....

 

if i could come up with an analogy for this situation, it would be... the scenario where you have cats that are living ghetto fab', while still gettin a welfare check, gettin over on the gov't....

 

overall point being... even if it is a 1/2 fare card, you make the kids "parents" come out of pocket with SOMEthing... days of kids flashing a pass in front a b/o's grill, is over... days of dipping a free (to the students) card, should be over... especially when you get kids jumping turnstiles & hopping the backs of turnstiles....

 

people should be grateful... instead, they find ways to get over...

 

 

my fault for the double post... I just thought I should separate the two points

 

I understand your point about fat cats who consider kindness a form of stupidity and seek to take the system for all it's worth and I don't approve of that any more than you do. The problem is that they are not in any way shape or form the typical service user, simply a rather vocal and quite obnoxious minority. How does the saying go, "Let a hundred guilty go free lest we convict an innocent"? I believe a similar principle is in order here, particularly since we are in reality looking at at least 20-30 innocents for every fat cat.

[Grand Concourse]

There are new hybrid MCI's that the MTA could purchase when they look to update the express fleet- they have been around for a little while now, and I am surprised they haven't been purchased yet.

 

Putting 05's on local routes in between express routes would be a logistical nightmare in terms of keeping to the timetables and mixing up the depots and routes of NYCT/MTA Bus- I cannot see that ever happening, but you never know.

 

Well MTA Bus LGA, SC, and CP both have CNG O5s that run on both the local and express bus lines, or at least they used to.

[Grand Concourse]

You really need to learn to think before you speak. I admit that this is money that could have been used to save jobs or prevent cutbacks, but this entire "cry broke" rigamarole is simply an excuse to create zero-sum games where none should exist. Why should you, the paying commuter who is tired of piss-poor service and unreasonable fares, I, the high school student who is part of a family of four living on $35-45,000 a year and really needs the student pass to do school-sponsored independent research in Brooklyn on a near-daily basis, and practically every other little guy involved with (including the workers, who are usually the first target when times get hard) have to constantly quarrel like dogs over a half-chewed T-bone for basic corporate decency, user-friendliness, and service quality? Frankly, if we spent half the time organizing pressure campaigns as a unit and presented a unified list of demands and proposals to that we did quarreling over whose basic needs deserve priority attention we might actually be able to make a noticeable dent in service cuts, fare hikes, and other assorted crap coming out of their headquarters.

 

Oh so it's a sin now to dare speak my opinion on the matter? I'm willing to compromise on a half fare card. If everyone paid back something into the system then there would not be a need for more drastic service cuts or fare hikes. Plus as people mentioned here some of those kids jumps over the turnstiles anyway on free cards. So at least if they aren't going to use them for school purposes, at least have them pony up half of the card's value and prepay the rides.

Like you said, what about the workers? They are still being fired/let go. The MTA is in a big enough hole as it is, everyone should do their part to chip in.

 

Of course the MTA is corupt, but don't berate me about an area that i feel is a financial burden. So you should chill and you should maybe think about things from a financial standpoint before taking things personally. And as I said elsewhere: this is more a DOE issue. If they were to fund the free rides on their budget, then fine. Also if kids pulls in decent grades then they should ride for free = an incentive to do better in school. Does that sound fair to you?

[motorman2085]

Transit and the Feds needs to modify on the Transit Chek system. Employers should grant or reduce the transit chek base on employees salary. People making less will get more reduction while people making more will have to pay more or full amount. That goes for the student pass as well whereby the school makes the determination base on the parents income. With a fare increase it will then be more equitable. The poor and middle income increase will pay less in increases than say the rich that can more afford to pay it.

[Mysterious2train]

As a student I can't say how glad I am full-fare metrocards are safe for now. I value my metrocard, thank you very much. I don't like travelling with some relatives on non school-days, because they push me to use my Student Metrocard. (Every Thanksgiving, for example, I travel to my grandmother's house on the B44. I don't use my own metrocard, but it is always made clear that the only reason I don't use my student metro is that we're traveling via bus.) I have to give my father props though; he will always pay for my brothers and I on holidays and such. Students from my school however, have been known to waste their metros by not even using them - i.e. holding the Emergency Exit open for their friends when the police aren't patrolling the mezzanine. One time, a whole group of students all just cruised through the door. I know this is wasteful but if you take away metros from people like them you have to take metros from people that don't take them for granted too so it's a win-lose situation at best.

[Grand Concourse]

:smh: that those that holds the emergency door open. This is why I don't see why everyone should have a free card*. SOME don't even value the privilige they have in the free ride. They just have it as an 'apendage'/afterthought. If it was a half fare card then at least even if they do break the law in farebeating, the ones funding those cards [city and state] don't lose much as they've been paid for already.

 

* see my recent post today about the exceptions.

[checkmatechamp13]

Regarding the topic at hand (Student Metrocards), I agree with GC... why does it have to be full fare cards? I remember you had the old bus passes, and the 1/2 fare passes... they got rid of the passes, and introduced the student metrocards....

 

you know what I find w/ the student metro's.... kids rely on these things, only during the times they're NOT supposed to be used... that is, for late night travel, and weekend travel.... worse, you have some parents/adults opting to use their kids' student metro's to try and get over....

 

if i could come up with an analogy for this situation, it would be... the scenario where you have cats that are living ghetto fab', while still gettin a welfare check, gettin over on the gov't....

 

overall point being... even if it is a 1/2 fare card, you make the kids "parents" come out of pocket with SOMEthing... days of kids flashing a pass in front a b/o's grill, is over... days of dipping a free (to the students) card, should be over... especially when you get kids jumping turnstiles & hopping the backs of turnstiles....

 

people should be grateful... instead, they find ways to get over...

 

 

my fault for the double post... I just thought I should separate the two points

 

Student MetroCards are invalid between 8:30 PM and 5:30 AM and all day weekends, so if you swipe the Student MetroCard and it says "Card Not Valid At This Time", it is up to the bus operator/station agent to decide whether or not to let you ride. (I've tried it at 8:40 PM, coming from an after-school club, mind you, and it said "Card Not Valid At This Time". It didn't even take the transfer even though I put in the MetroCard at 8:30 PM on another bus. Another time, I got lucky, though, and it the transfer was still valid).

Basically, what I'm trying to say is that abuse doesn't happen as often as you think. On the bus, it says "Student OK" and on the subway, an indicator light lights up. Therefore, it is difficult for parents to use them.

 

But the points are:

- it should be a DOE problem and they should fund it.

- the MTA is already broke as it is, how many more cuts/fare hikes can they keep up?*

 

*this hurts everyone especially the poor parents cuz they'll need to pay more and need to be away from home for longer due to fewer trains/buses running.

 

I agree with you about the DOE. It is much more efficient to use public transportation than school buses (though they should get some kind of discount considering that they guarentee over 500,000 riders to the system daily)

I already mentioned that the students only make up 7% of riders in the system. Therefore, a 7% fare hike (or a reduction of service by 7%) balances out the need for any additional service reductions.

 

Oh so it's a sin now to dare speak my opinion on the matter? I'm willing to compromise on a half fare card. If everyone paid back something into the system then there would not be a need for more drastic service cuts or fare hikes. Plus as people mentioned here some of those kids jumps over the turnstiles anyway on free cards. So at least if they aren't going to use them for school purposes, at least have them pony up half of the card's value and prepay the rides.

Like you said, what about the workers? They are still being fired/let go. The MTA is in a big enough hole as it is, everyone should do their part to chip in.

 

Of course the MTA is corupt, but don't berate me about an area that i feel is a financial burden. So you should chill and you should maybe think about things from a financial standpoint before taking things personally. And as I said elsewhere: this is more a DOE issue. If they were to fund the free rides on their budget, then fine. Also if kids pulls in decent grades then they should ride for free = an incentive to do better in school. Does that sound fair to you?

 

You're assuming that most people with the MetroCard farebeat after school. What about the ones who don't (like myself)?

I'd agree with the good grades=free rides idea. The problem is that some people physically aren't smart enough to attain the good grades, yet they use their MetroCard like they are supposed to, and behave on the bus.

 

Once again, the MTA shouldn't be shortchanged by $144 million in fares. Transportation is supposed to be the responsibility of the school district. I do think, however, that they should get a discount on the Student MetroCards, since they do guarantee at least 500,000 riders to the system. Maybe not the 70% discount that they get now, but maybe a 20%-30% discount.

 

Basically, I think students have as much of a right to ride a public bus as a school bus. A lot of the children who get free school bus service are as disruptive as the children who receive Student MetroCards. Would the DOE consider taking away their school bus service? No. They overpay the school bus operators by millions of dollars, and for all we know, could be transporting the same loudmouthed students, yet they shortchange the MTA.

According to this website: http://www.streetsblog.org/2010/03/04/to-save-student-metrocards-trim-the-fat-from-bloated-bus-costs/ , the DOE spent over $1 billion on school buses in 2010, compared to $680 million in 2002. That was an increase of 48% from 8 years ago. Yet, their contribution to the MTA decreased by 35%. It would've been much more efficient to increase the subsidy to the MTA by 48% (which would be a $52 million increase to $160 million), and cut $58 million from the school bus budget today. I think a 6% cut is reasonable, since the school bus operators factor in a certain profit margin into their prices.

That $160 million would fall in line with what I said about the bulk discount-a 25% discount.

[engineerboy6561]

Oh so it's a sin now to dare speak my opinion on the matter? I'm willing to compromise on a half fare card. If everyone paid back something into the system then there would not be a need for more drastic service cuts or fare hikes. Plus as people mentioned here some of those kids jumps over the turnstiles anyway on free cards. So at least if they aren't going to use them for school purposes, at least have them pony up half of the card's value and prepay the rides.

Like you said, what about the workers? They are still being fired/let go. The MTA is in a big enough hole as it is, everyone should do their part to chip in.

 

Of course the MTA is corupt, but don't berate me about an area that i feel is a financial burden. So you should chill and you should maybe think about things from a financial standpoint before taking things personally. And as I said elsewhere: this is more a DOE issue. If they were to fund the free rides on their budget, then fine. Also if kids pulls in decent grades then they should ride for free = an incentive to do better in school. Does that sound fair to you?

 

Sorry if I got a bit heated earlier; I didn't realize what you were saying. I understand that the student MetroCards are financially a losing bet but I find it somewhat offensive that we are only looking at finance when we look at what a program is worth. However, I do disagree with the idea that if we all paid into we wouldn't have to deal with service cuts and fare hikes. Frankly, I'm pretty sure that they would simply add another useless white-collar position or raise top-end managerial salaries, cry broke, and then force the hikes and cuts anyway. I agree with you that this is a DOE issue and and that this belongs under their budget. However, with the financial situation where it is now trying to get the program put where it belongs would become a lot more difficult than simply pushing to pull the funds out from wherever they need to to cover the program until a more permanent solution can be implemented. As to your fare beater argument, I don't like kids who jump turnstiles or go through gates any more than you do, but why should we use that as a reason to pull the plug on a program that services thousands if not millions of students use honestly and truly need? The answer to that is simply to add 40-50 more cops for subway station patrol at stations near schools. If the fare-beating problem is as pervasive as you claim it to be, these cops would pay for their salaries and then some in fare evasion citations.

[R32 3348]

Express bus riders should be paying what the actual value is. Someone posted on Subchat that a BM2 costs about $20 per rider. If they really want to keep their buses so bad, then they should pay more for it or expect cutbacks so the buses are not wasted carrying less than 35-40 riders.

Well, there is no such thing as a profitable route. Therefore the operating costs of every single bus and subway line in the system are higher than the money coming in from fares. So you could use this argument systemwide, but higher fares results in lower ridership, so you will would not recover all the money spent in running the routes.

$20? No wonder they have a budget hole. They waste money on crap like purchasing MCI coaches and running express buses in places like Riverdale and Lower Manhattan. The should seriously consider cutting many of the express buses.

Lower Manhattan is a destination for many express buses for a reason. Many of these middle class express bus users have jobs in Lower Manhattan and live in areas where the express bus is the easiest option. However, many express buses do have very light ridership at some hours of their operation (such as weekends and evenings) and should have their hours reduced.

With Bloomberg/Klein closing up neighborhood schools and replacing them with new schools that are not zoned, most kids must commute to schools that accept them. The days of walking to school are well past for most kids. Anything that keeps our kids our in schools is a plus.

Exactly. I live in Jackson Heights (Roosevelt Ave. station) but the nearest HS next to me is on 46th St. on the (M)/®. Even if I went to my zoned HS I would still need a Metrocard to get to and from school, unless you want me to walk for 30+ minutes to school every day. My commute to school on the Upper East Side with the subway is only 30-40 minutes on average anyway.

But the problem is the MCIs are diesel only and the MTA is trying to comply with standards to have a more environmentally cleaner fleet- thus the hybrids.

 

Sure there are local bus routes out there that are empty as well, but they run back and forth continually picking up riders in both directions*. Express buses goes out to Manhattan and either stays there or deadheads [runs empty] picking up no riders to either pick up more riders or to just go back to the depot.

At least with the O5s, they could be put onto the local bus routes and put into service than to go all the way back to the depot of origin and do nothing.

 

*and I'm not bitching about the current local bus cuts. I'm all for efficiency on the local bus area as well. Of the cuts the B2 is the one that kinda affects me the most. But I can still take the b82 or B9 if I needed to get to the brighton line.

Clean diesel technology is just as environmentally friendly as hybrid technology. The only argument supporting hybrid buses is that they lower the (MTA)'s fuel costs, but they are also more expensive during the short term. I agree that there are areas in express bus service though that should be cut.

[QM1to6Ave]

Student MetroCards are invalid between 8:30 PM and 5:30 AM and all day weekends, so if you swipe the Student MetroCard and it says "Card Not Valid At This Time", it is up to the bus operator/station agent to decide whether or not to let you ride.

 

The card I got in high school was valid until 11 pm on weeknights and worked on Sundays, too. I could have abused that card so much if I wanted to, but I didn't.

[GreatOne2k]

Some students do have school on the weekends, and evenings, so there are different Student Metrocards. Some are good until 1am (but may start later in the day), others are good on weekends. There is also a trip pass good for 2 trips only. Private and Public schools also have different vacation days

 

All of these are reasons why the cards just remain active at the times set on the card until the expiration date (including holidays).

[TOURQuarterback12]

They can find $225 millions to save the student metro card and yet can't find $25 million to save 266 station agent layoffs. Sad....

 

There needs to be at least one agent at each station at all times. Cuts mean stations with no agents, which is dangerous. In addition, MTA is cutting administration staff and everybody taking a 10% pay cut, and reducing maintainance and inspection for train cars which results in higher porbablility of train inconvieniences such as accidents, malfunctions.....

 

Negatively affecting everybody and the system itself just to save the kids' cards. The kids should pay half fare at least like seniors.

[TOURQuarterback12]

The card I got in high school was valid until 11 pm on weeknights and worked on Sundays, too. I could have abused that card so much if I wanted to, but I didn't.

 

We had cards that only went till 9pm....And I would often be out late on weeknights.

[checkmatechamp13]

There needs to be at least one agent at each station at all times. Cuts mean stations with no agents, which is dangerous. In addition, MTA is cutting administration staff and everybody taking a 10% pay cut, and reducing maintainance and inspection for train cars which results in higher porbablility of train inconvieniences such as accidents, malfunctions.....

 

Negatively affecting everybody and the system itself just to save the kids' cards. The kids should pay half fare at least like seniors.

 

I said it before and I'll say it again: Eliminating the student MetroCards wouldn have an even worse effect on the city. If students don't have a chance to go to school, many of them will either dropout, meaning they would most likely spend the rest of their life on welfare, being a burden to society instead of an asset, and/or hang out on the streets and you would see an increase in street crime. Of course, cutting maintainance and station agents is bad, but having the effects of cutting Student MetroCards is worse.

All of these reductions in maintainance and station agents would've happened anyway. At this point, there will have to be further cutbacks in one department or the other. The question is, which ones?

Students make up about 7% of all NYCT riders. Therefore, a less detrimental way of making up that money would be to raise fares by 7%. This would spread the burden more evenly across all of the users, instead of targeting one group.

I figure that if the MTA is losing $144 million annually ($214 million-$70 million from the city and state combined), and it spread that over its 2.2 billion annual riders, that would be about 7 cents per rider extra, which is less than the 7 percent fare hike I suggested. Even if the MTA wanted to go for the full $214 million, that would only require them to raise the fare by 10 cents.

I do agree 100% that the Department of Education should cover the whole cost of the Student MetroCards, though, as they are much more cost-efficient than school buses, especially for long distances.

[TOURQuarterback12]

I know the kids are still kids but when I was 15, I was waay ahead of all the other kids maturely, socially, mentally, and physcologically. Maybe I'm just thinking of me but the kids need to value their education and not take it for granted and that factors in the MetroCards. I would know because my school was good but over half the kids would cut/absent school to use their MetroCards to their asses over to Rockaway Beach in the summertime or find different parts of town to roam the streets in. Charge the kids full fare, its only $4.50 a day. Those with low income get free or 25 cent lunch anyway. Its better they buy MetroCards than spend money on weed. (And just on the subject on weed, why not legalize it since its a perscription drug for cases and tax it for more city funds, it raises the GDP and kids smoke it anyways) Just add more cops near the schools and nearby stations. I'm sure the money brought in by MTA sure waay outpaces the money needed by NYPD for cops. I'm sure everybody can afford that.

 

Education is not just about having MetroCard for school as an opportunity, its totally up tp if they want education or not and paying for fares is what can separate those who do and those who dont. If they really prioritize one, then they will always sacrifice things for fare money.

[checkmatechamp13]

Maybe it is because I, like you, am a good student who gets straight As in all of his classes, but I still feel that money should not be a barrier to an education. It is just one of the ideas of a public education.

I don't see what having free or reduced-price lunch has to do with MetroCards. The reason that they get reduced price lunches is because the federal government doesn't feel that the child's family has enough money to pay full price for lunch.

As far as separating the people who want an education from the people who don't, it isn't as simple as that. $700 is a lot of money for the year and there is a limit to how much the child or their family can sacrifice for fare money. If a family has 3 children in school, that is $2,100 per year. If they are low income and make, say $20,000 per year, that is 10% of their income that they are spending on a public education. At that point, that $2,100 could mean food on the table.

I am a very dedicated student. I have even gone to school on days when the roads and sidewalks were all slushy. The reason being that I had a Student MetroCard, so at least it was free. If I had to pay $1.96 for the fare (with the Pay-Per-Ride bonus), that would be $3.92 round trip. Would you be willing to pay $3.92 to walk all the way to and from the bus in the ice and snow to show up to a class where nothing was being accomplished and half of the teachers and students were absent? Even on good days, the MTA would still not get any money from me. I would walk the 2 miles to school or I plain wouldn't show up. My attendance is good enough that I could miss some days, so they might as well give me a free MetroCard and save the school the trouble of marking me late rather than let me walk to school.

As far as the increased numebor of police, don't forget that the chance to get an education could mean the difference between getting a good job and paying taxes and being an asset to society, and getting a low-paying job and spending the rest of your life on welfare. The disadvantages to society as a whole have to be factored in.