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checkmatechamp13

What Do You Think of The (M) and Extended (Q)?

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I'd take slight delays at merge points than riding through the tunnel. Why? Because it still gets me and other (N) riders to our destinations much more quickly.

 

If it does go tunnel, everyone's gonna jump off at DeKalb, and that would create unnecessary extra crowding on (Q) trains.

 

It is a good point, but we will see how this layout will truly hold up when school starts. Sometimes though, depending on the gap of the (N) and (R) trains, (Q) trains at least in my experience, have been held for 5 minutes which is a lot of time for some people.

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I get off at Canal Street often. From my years of experience riding the (N), there are plenty of things that can cause delays (and often do):

  • At the Coney Island terminal, trains do not always get sent off at the same time. One day it might be 12:15 (the earliest time) and another day it might be 12:20, so there is a 5 minutes variability there already.
  • Train conductors or operators might be late. That usually adds another 1 to 3 minutes to the delay, but some have been known to cause 10 minutes of delays (while taking their sweet time to stroll into the train). They should be fired.
  • Slow conductors might keep the doors open for extra long for passengers that might not even be there. The swiftness which a conductor opens and closes the door alone accounts for another 5 minutes in variability.
  • Slow train operators slow down at any sign of yellow or red lights in their line of sight, even if the lights are more than 3 train lengths away. Depending on how overly cautious they are, this potentially adds up to 7 minutes to the ride.
  • If the above 3 don't happen during the trip, surely the orange holding lights will. At 59 Street, 36 Street, and Pacific Street, these lights can hold the (N) at the station anywhere from a few seconds to 5 minutes. 3 minutes seems to be a common occurrence.
  • Right before 36 Street, the (N) will be held if a (D) is approaching. In fact, the holding lights at 59 Street are more frequently used to hold the (N) train not for the (R) but just so that the (D) can be in the way at 36 Street. This can add up to 5 minutes of delay to the trip. At the Manhattan Bridge junction, the (N) might be held for the (Q), but more of ten than not the (Q) is held for the (N). Even if the (N) were held, it would only add about 1 minute of delay

 

95% of the trips for me arrive at Canal Street within a 15 minute range, though the bullet points I highlighted above sometimes cause epic delays which account for the other 5%. Ideally, competent train supervision should be able to narrow the range to 5 minutes.

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I get off at Canal Street often. From my years of experience riding the (N), there are plenty of things that can cause delays (and often do):
  • At the Coney Island terminal, trains do not always get sent off at the same time. One day it might be 12:15 (the earliest time) and another day it might be 12:20, so there is a 5 minutes variability there already.

  • Train conductors or operators might be late. That usually adds another 1 to 3 minutes to the delay, but some have been known to cause 10 minutes of delays (while taking their sweet time to stroll into the train). They should be fired.

  • Slow conductors might keep the doors open for extra long for passengers that might not even be there. The swiftness which a conductor opens and closes the door alone accounts for another 5 minutes in variability.

  • Slow train operators slow down at any sign of yellow or red lights in their line of sight, even if the lights are more than 3 train lengths away. Depending on how overly cautious they are, this potentially adds up to 7 minutes to the ride.

  • If the above 3 don't happen during the trip, surely the orange holding lights will. At 59 Street, 36 Street, and Pacific Street, these lights can hold the (N) at the station anywhere from a few seconds to 5 minutes. 3 minutes seems to be a common occurrence.

  • Right before 36 Street, the (N) will be held if a (D) is approaching. In fact, the holding lights at 59 Street are more frequently used to hold the (N) train not for the (R) but just so that the (D) can be in the way at 36 Street. This can add up to 5 minutes of delay to the trip. At the Manhattan Bridge junction, the (N) might be held for the (Q), but more of ten than not the (Q) is held for the (N). Even if the (N) were held, it would only add about 1 minute of delay

 

95% of the trips for me arrive at Canal Street within a 15 minute range, though the bullet points I highlighted above sometimes cause epic delays which account for the other 5%. Ideally, competent train supervision should be able to narrow the range to 5 minutes.

 

I'd like to point out that a T/O who sees a yellow or red signal within his/her range of vision is supposed to slow the train down and prepare to stop said train by rule. Only an inexperienced operator would not take any action whatsoever. There is no guarantee that the observed signal is doing to clear for you, even a timer. Better safe than sorry.

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I'd like to point out that a T/O who sees a yellow or red signal within his/her range of vision is supposed to slow the train down and prepare to stop said train by rule. Only an inexperienced operator would not take any action whatsoever. There is no guarantee that the observed signal is doing to clear for you, even a timer. Better safe than sorry.

I actually made the claim from years of numerous observations. I do not know the controls well enough to state exactly what to do at what time, but I tend to "feel" how the train is moving along certain segments of the route and correlate those feelings with the visuals ahead.

 

An example that's easy to observe: some Manhattan-bound (N) train operators let the train continue at full speed until hitting Union Street along 4 Avenue or let the train coast while others slow down shortly after 9 Street. Along the open cut stations on the Sea Beach line, a rare minority of train operators also apply brakes when approaching the platform while the majority don't begin slowing down until the first few cars have reached the platform. That's the kind of difference I'm talking about. You can tell me what's appropriate and what the rules for operations are, but I know from observation what the end results should be at each point along the line; in fact, based upon the train operator's behavior between Coney Island and 86 Street, I can tell whether I will be late for work or not and my hunch is usually right. Those who take the same train frequently know what I'm talking about.

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It seems that this thread has mostly become devoted to the (N)/(Q), so allow me a few words on the (M):

 

It RAWKS. (Mostly.)

 

I joined the NYC workforce full time in 1993 and for the very first time I have a one-seat ride from my home to my place of employment. And as these things go, a fairly direct ride, too. From the time I get on at Fresh Pond Road to the time I get off at W. 4th St. it's been consistently half an hour, or maybe just a minute or two more. (A friend of mine who does the same commute claims that he got from FPR to W4 in about 19 MINUTES, during midday. Not sure that I believe him.) Add in a few minutes walk on either end and a few minutes waiting at FPR and my total commute, door to door, is now about forty-five to fifty minutes, which is a good ten to fifteen minutes quicker than what it was before June 27th. So for me this has been a really good change.

 

Of course, I would like to see something done about headways. Ten minutes during the morning rush? Are you kidding me? I don't know what can be done about that but something should be done.

 

Also, eventually, there's going to need to be late night and weekend service. If not along the full route, which would be ideal, at least to, say, W4th (which was a popular topic of conversation over at subchat a few weeks ago).

 

So those are my thoughts.

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Unless they were to add a few extra (R) trains to terminate at Whitehall, I guess the current (M) is ok on QB. I've yet to ride it yet, but dunno how bad this has been for 53rd-Lex in terms of fewer trains stopping there compared to the (V).

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Guest Charles
Unless they were to add a few extra (R) trains to terminate at Whitehall, I guess the current (M) is ok on QB. I've yet to ride it yet, but dunno how bad this has been for 53rd-Lex in terms of fewer trains stopping there compared to the (V).

 

It's relatively okay. There have been times when the station has seen its share of crowds (that day LIRR service was messed up , boy was the (E) messed up). But the biggest thing to note is that it's summer, so there's going to be less riders to begin with (most notably students and workers on vacation). So once September rolls around and school starts again, we'll see the real impact of the (M) on QBL.

 

And a quick take on the Broadway line-I agree with sending the (N) through to tunnel to Brooklyn. Broadway needs its 2 local lines especially in Lower Manhattan.

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It seems that this thread has mostly become devoted to the (N)/(Q), so allow me a few words on the (M):

 

It RAWKS. (Mostly.)

 

I joined the NYC workforce full time in 1993 and for the very first time I have a one-seat ride from my home to my place of employment. And as these things go, a fairly direct ride, too. From the time I get on at Fresh Pond Road to the time I get off at W. 4th St. it's been consistently half an hour, or maybe just a minute or two more. (A friend of mine who does the same commute claims that he got from FPR to W4 in about 19 MINUTES, during midday. Not sure that I believe him.) Add in a few minutes walk on either end and a few minutes waiting at FPR and my total commute, door to door, is now about forty-five to fifty minutes, which is a good ten to fifteen minutes quicker than what it was before June 27th. So for me this has been a really good change.

 

Of course, I would like to see something done about headways. Ten minutes during the morning rush? Are you kidding me? I don't know what can be done about that but something should be done.

 

Also, eventually, there's going to need to be late night and weekend service. If not along the full route, which would be ideal, at least to, say, W4th (which was a popular topic of conversation over at subchat a few weeks ago).

 

So those are my thoughts.

 

I agree for the most part. What I'm noticing is that trains originating from Forest Hills have much better headways in the AM rush, some as short as 5 minutes. Overall I love the (M) service and find it vastly improved. I also agree that the (M) will eventually have to be extended on weekends at the very least.

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I agree for the most part. What I'm noticing is that trains originating from Forest Hills have much better headways in the AM rush, some as short as 5 minutes. Overall I love the (M) service and find it vastly improved. I also agree that the (M) will eventually have to be extended on weekends at the very least.

 

Yep, but (W) needs to come back first. Broadway is still the same with the delays and image how packed it is going to be when school starts.

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It's relatively okay. There have been times when the station has seen its share of crowds (that day LIRR service was messed up , boy was the (E) messed up). But the biggest thing to note is that it's summer, so there's going to be less riders to begin with (most notably students and workers on vacation). So once September rolls around and school starts again, we'll see the real impact of the (M) on QBL.

 

And a quick take on the Broadway line-I agree with sending the (N) through to tunnel to Brooklyn. Broadway needs its 2 local lines especially in Lower Manhattan.

Very true. I just hope they boost (M) service [with some short turns at 2nd av perhaps comprised of 10-car trains] for the fall.

 

Totally agreed. Running the (N) via the tunnel will help the LM riders [since the loss of both the (Mx) and (W) as well as keep the area around Prince St clear.

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The thing is that whole local to express thing in the Dekalb junction. Making the (N) all stops in Brooklyn to alleviate the switching there will won't work (making the (D) the only express on 4Av), especially if it and a (R) arrive side by side at Pacific.

 

Its really a perfect storm of sorts, very difficult to intertwine all the existing services in a way where merging delays won't happen.

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The thing is that whole local to express thing in the Dekalb junction. Making the (N) all stops in Brooklyn to alleviate the switching there will won't work (making the (D) the only express on 4Av), especially if it and a (R) arrive side by side at Pacific.

 

Its really a perfect storm of sorts, very difficult to intertwine all the existing services in a way where merging delays won't happen.

He's got a point. I would compare the (N) to cars that weave in and out of lanes along the highway. It's current incarnation is the common cause of traffic jams on the Broadway and 4 Avenue lines:

  • 36 Street (northbound with the (D))

  • Pacific Street (southbound with the (D)

  • Manhattan Bridge (northbound with the (Q), southbound with the (D))
  • Prince Street (northbound with the (R))

  • 34 Street or 42 Street (with the (Q) in both directions)

  • 60 Street Tunnel (southbound with the (R))

Don't forget that at many of these points, other trains may have to wait behind the (N) while the (N) waits for the other train (or the other way around).

 

And the root of the problem is the decision to make the (N) a quasi-express and to make it run full time to Astoria; the combination doesn't work very well. It either has to be all local or all express, and I don't think riders (like me) would prefer the former option. Here are the possibilities:

  • (N) as: 4 Avenue local, via Whitehall Street, Broadway local, to Astoria.

    Express service between 59 Street and 36 Street will be non-existent (though the delays at 36 Street make it useless anyway), and DeKalb Avenue will be the only point which Sea Beach and Bay Ridge passengers can access the Broadway express.

  • (N) as: 4 Avenue express, via Manhattan Bridge, Broadway express, to Midtown or Astoria. (Q) as: Broadway local, via Whitehall Street, to Astoria.

    The delays at Prince Street and the Manhattan Bridge between the three Broadway lines will also be eliminated. (Q) will effectively replicate (W) at the expense of Brighton passengers. The question is whether service efficiency justifies passenger inconvenience as there will be no Broadway express service at DeKalb Avenue, and Brighton passengers will have to use the connection at Atlantic Avenue–Pacific Street. And unless the (:) runs over the weekend, there will be no service over the Manhattan Bridge at all.

  • (D) as: 4 Avenue local. (N) as: 4 Avenue express, via Manhattan Bridge, Broadway express, to Midtown or Astoria. (Q) as: Broadway local, via Whitehall Street, to Astoria.

    The delay at 36 Street will shifted to the (R) for northbound trains. The delays at Prince Street and the Manhattan Bridge between the three Broadway lines will also be eliminated. The (D) will effectively replicate the (Mx) in Brooklyn and the (Q) will replicate the (W) in Manhattan at the expense of West End and Brighton passengers respectively. DeKalb Avenue will also have access to the 6 Avenue line around the clock since the (D) runs local, but Broadway express service will be nonexistent.

 

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And the root of the problem is the decision to make the (N) a quasi-express and to make it run full time to Astoria; the combination doesn't work very well. It either has to be all local or all express, and I don't think riders (like me) would prefer the former option. Here are the possibilities:

  • (N) as: 4 Avenue local, via Whitehall Street, Broadway local, to Astoria.

    Express service between 59 Street and 36 Street will be non-existent (though the delays at 36 Street make it useless anyway), and DeKalb Avenue will be the only point which Sea Beach and Bay Ridge passengers can access the Broadway express.

  • (N) as: 4 Avenue express, via Manhattan Bridge, Broadway express, to Midtown or Astoria. (Q) as: Broadway local, via Whitehall Street, to Astoria.

    The delays at Prince Street and the Manhattan Bridge between the three Broadway lines will also be eliminated. (Q) will effectively replicate (W) at the expense of Brighton passengers. The question is whether service efficiency justifies passenger inconvenience as there will be no Broadway express service at DeKalb Avenue, and Brighton passengers will have to use the connection at Atlantic Avenue–Pacific Street. And unless the (:) runs over the weekend, there will be no service over the Manhattan Bridge at all.

  • (D) as: 4 Avenue local. (N) as: 4 Avenue express, via Manhattan Bridge, Broadway express, to Midtown or Astoria. (Q) as: Broadway local, via Whitehall Street, to Astoria.

    The delay at 36 Street will shifted to the (R) for northbound trains. The delays at Prince Street and the Manhattan Bridge between the three Broadway lines will also be eliminated. The (D) will effectively replicate the (Mx) in Brooklyn and the (Q) will replicate the (W) in Manhattan at the expense of West End and Brighton passengers respectively. DeKalb Avenue will also have access to the 6 Avenue line around the clock since the (D) runs local, but Broadway express service will be nonexistent.

 

 

I'm definitely not in favor of the first option, running the (N) as a full-time local via the tunnel, as was done from December 1988 to September 2002. The main reason I'm not in favor of that is because it will cause more people to pile on the (Q) in Manhattan as well as at DeKalb Avenue. If the current (R) service in Lower Manhattan is not sufficient, either run more (R) trains and short-turn them at Whitehall or bring back the (W). If there is a real need for more 4th Avenue Local service than what the (R) currently provides, either run a limited number of (J) trains to 9th Avenue or bring back the old <R> service (maybe under a different letter, how about V?)

 

I'm also not so sure running the (Q) local via the Montague Tunnel will go so well with Brighton Line riders. I think the ones headed to Midtown Manhattan outnumber those headed for Lower Manhattan by far.

 

Perhaps both the (N) and (Q) can run express (and switch in the same place whether 34th or 57th) while a more frequent-running (R) with some short-turns at Whitehall, provides all Broadway Local service.

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I'm definitely not in favor of the first option, running the (N) as a full-time local via the tunnel, as was done from December 1988 to September 2002. The main reason I'm not in favor of that is because it will cause more people to pile on the (Q) in Manhattan as well as at DeKalb Avenue. If the current (R) service in Lower Manhattan is not sufficient, either run more (R) trains and short-turn them at Whitehall or bring back the (W). If there is a real need for more 4th Avenue Local service than what the (R) currently provides, either run a limited number of (J) trains to 9th Avenue or bring back the old <R> service (maybe under a different letter, how about V?)

 

I'm also not so sure running the (Q) local via the Montague Tunnel will go so well with Brighton Line riders. I think the ones headed to Midtown Manhattan outnumber those headed for Lower Manhattan by far.

 

Perhaps both the (N) and (Q) can run express (and switch in the same place whether 34th or 57th) while a more frequent-running (R) with some short-turns at Whitehall, provides all Broadway Local service.

Don't forget that the (N) and (Q) trains share the 60 Street tunnel and that the (R) shares a line with the (M). To increase the ®'s frequency, you must decrease the frequencies of these other trains. The (J) idea might work, but we're in a time of service cuts (otherwise I would have suggested bringing back the (W)).

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Don't forget that the (N) and (Q) trains share the 60 Street tunnel and that the (R) shares a line with the (M). To increase the ®'s frequency, you must decrease the frequencies of these other trains. The (J) idea might work, but we're in a time of service cuts (otherwise I would have suggested bringing back the (W)).

That's true about the (M), (N) and (Q) trains having to run with fewer trains per hour in order to accommodate a more frequent-running (R). I had been thinking from a more long-term stance. Short-term, if I had to choose from one of the three scenarios you listed in your last post, I'd have to go with the third one because the advantage it has over the other two is that the (D) would always stop at DeKalb Avenue. But it seems like in any of them that improvement to Broadway line operations in Manhattan is going to come at the expense of Brighton, Sea Beach or West End Line riders in Brooklyn.

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Until the (Q) or hopefully the (N) extension to 125th St or even the Bronx, the Broadway line is so...... ackwardly built. It's like the (N)(Q)(R) is just limited to running to either Astoria or Jamaica northbound and to Bay Ridge or Coney Island southbound plus where the local and express tracks connects to and where it goes to outside of Manhattan. For that reason, the Broadway (N)(Q)(R) (no matter how much) will be visibly unbalanced in some sort of way.

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The thing is that whole local to express thing in the Dekalb junction. Making the (N) all stops in Brooklyn to alleviate the switching there will won't work (making the (D) the only express on 4Av), especially if it and a (R) arrive side by side at Pacific.

 

Its really a perfect storm of sorts, very difficult to intertwine all the existing services in a way where merging delays won't happen.

No, what I meant was the (N) running 'as is' before the 2004-post bridge changes. The (N) switched at dekalb-Pacific to run as an express down 4th Av. But otherwise ran with the (R) via the tunnel thru Manhattan until they split off in Queens. That's what I want for the (N). No need to run the (N) local on 4th Av.

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Oh you mean when the south side was closed. Thats what I thought they was going back to when the cuts were first detailed (24 hr N service thru the tunnel and an exp run along 4av). To my horror I saw the (N) staying on the bridge and I was like wow, 4Av really don't want to lose their Broadway service over the bridge, and transfering at Atlantic/Pacific is not feasible.

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Alright, sorry for the week bump. So today, the (N) ran express along Astoria during Middays, and the (Q) was cut back to 57th St. I personally think that this is better during the middays since there are too many (Q)s at Astoria during midday anyways. It does clear up 34th St. Of course, Prince Street switch is still a problem. Also, I don't understand why the MTA decided to make the (Q) to 57th St skip 49St, but the on the way back to CI, it switches back to local and stops at 49st and switches back north of 34St. I personally think it should just skip it both ways if it is going to terminate at 57th St.

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Alright, sorry for the week bump. So today, the (N) ran express along Astoria during Middays

 

Also, I don't understand why the MTA decided to make the (Q) to 57th St skip 49St, but the on the way back to CI, it switches back to local and stops at 49st and switches back north of 34St. I personally think it should just skip it both ways if it is going to terminate at 57th St.

 

Yeah I noticed the midday express too. And I completely agree about 49th st.

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49th Street-Seventh Avenue (N)(Q)(R) serves the Rockefeller Center area in conjunction with 47th-50th Streets-Rockerfeller Center (:P(D)(F)(M) station on Sixth Avenue. These are the two closest subway stations.

 

With the (W) no more, the (N) now serves the purpose of the (W) along most of Broadway and the (Q) serves the purpose of the (N) at 49th Street.

 

50th Street-Broadway (1) is the next closest station but there is probably not the need to have the (2) (or (3)) stop there as there is to have the (Q) stop at 49th Street. Possibly it's for the best also since it's the only station skipped north of 34th Street-Herald Square on the B.M.T..

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Alright, sorry for the week bump. So today, the (N) ran express along Astoria during Middays, and the (Q) was cut back to 57th St. I personally think that this is better during the middays since there are too many (Q)s at Astoria during midday anyways. It does clear up 34th St. Of course, Prince Street switch is still a problem. Also, I don't understand why the MTA decided to make the (Q) to 57th St skip 49St, but the on the way back to CI, it switches back to local and stops at 49st and switches back north of 34St. I personally think it should just skip it both ways if it is going to terminate at 57th St.

 

Getting rid of the (W) was a huge mistake. The Astoria service pattern has been pretty erratic and unpredictable since the service cuts took effect.

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