The Original Test Fleet Discussion

[East New York]

I doubt B44 SBS would require 60-65 artics unless that's SBS and a few/all of the local runs. And specially if the M15 SBS requires about 47 (38 ish for peak I would estimate). Also, as I have ridden and taken the 44 the past ten years, I doubt that many buses are required. And I would assume a few routes would have to be transferred out of Grand. 60 artics is about 90 40fters worth of space. Grand Av can fit 200 buses and has bout 3 expanded bays (which I assume is for artics, keep in mind of date of the data/website below).

http://retiree.nyct.com/newsletrs/l0108.pdf

 

Well the B44 has short turn runs, which also run slightly more frequent than the B15. You also have to factor in spares. So maybe 55-60. But IMO, this is how many would be needed. I could be wrong though.

 

I have a question. With the buying all of these different buses, once they are all on the road and they evaluate the buses performance, will this be a case of the choosing to order the bus they like the most out of all the companies they've brought buses from or will they keep on ordering more of all of those buses from NF, Nova, Orion and Designline?

 

The way it is now, the buses are supposed to be put through some extensive testing. Afterwards, MTA will decide which bus performed better, then go from there. The next order will likely go to the overall winner.

[LRG]

The way it is now, the buses are supposed to be put through some extensive testing. Afterwards, MTA will decide which bus performed better, then go from there. The next order will likely go to the overall winner.

 

So if Nova's 90 beat New Flyer's 90 and Orion's 90 then we'll see an supplemental order of LFS' from Nova?

[Kanarsie Guy]

That work way better then just Diving right in a order like they did with those 07"s.

[NovaBus 5121]

Well the B44 has short turn runs, which also run slightly more frequent than the B15. You also have to factor in spares. So maybe 55-60. But IMO, this is how many would be needed. I could be wrong though.

Was not doubting you at all by the way, I was just wondering since with artic implementation, there would probably be slightly fewer runs/headways and with SBS itself, a reduction in over all run time. Thats a wait and see thing. Also, and I'm not directing this at you persay but to everyone, but what are the costs to maintain hybrids versus diesels (besides the fuel economy savings and fewer labor hours)? Is it so much that is not the mta is trying to test out new technology but simply because this is a much cheaper option down the road.

[East New York]

So if Nova's 90 beat New Flyer's 90 and Orion's 90 then we'll see an supplemental order of LFS' from Nova?

 

That's the way its looking. This is going to be interesting. Expect Orions 90 to be solid. They really want the next order. I would say the same for New Flyer as well. I never imagined I would see new Orion or NF diesels in TA colors. The top two winners may both bid. But if all 3 come out on top, who knows what will happen.

[East New York]

Was not doubting you at all by the way, I was just wondering since with artic implementation, there would probably be slightly fewer runs/headways and with SBS itself, a reduction in over all run time. Thats a wait and see thing. Also, and I'm not directing this at you persay but to everyone, but what are the costs to maintain hybrids versus diesels (besides the fuel economy savings and fewer labor hours)? Is it so much that is not the mta is trying to test out new technology but simply because this is a much cheaper option down the road.

 

To be truthfully honest, I don't know which one is cheaper in the long run. I'm beginning to think the costs are about the same overall.

[jacsnyy]

I would say if the B44 moved to Grand Avenue for SBS, Grand Avenue would lose two medium ridership routes. I would expect the B47 go back to Flatbush straight, then what I would do, is move the B9 to Flatbush and have Gleason take the B43 (if it isn't taken already by the time SBS is implemented, there have been rumors about the winter pick) or the B57/48 go to Gleason.

[East New York]

The TA now has the Orion proposal for review by the board. It's no secret that they will be awarded the order. What's really going to be of interest to me, is which buses will be the cheapest, and which ones will be the most expensive! That's going to be a major factor in this so called competition.

[LRG]

The TA now has the Orion proposal for review by the board. It's no secret that they will be awarded the order. What's really going to be of interest to me, is which buses will be the cheapest, and which ones will be the most expensive! That's going to be a major factor in this so called competition.

 

Just remember: you get what you pay for.

[Queens Surface]

That work way better then just Diving right in a order like they did with those 07"s.

 

Indeed, It makes alot more sense then just diving in ordering 800+ buses without fully testing on NYC streets for at least a year.

[aemoreira81]

The TA now has the Orion proposal for review by the board. It's no secret that they will be awarded the order. What's really going to be of interest to me, is which buses will be the cheapest, and which ones will be the most expensive! That's going to be a major factor in this so called competition.

 

I think though that performance will come into play here; I would not be surprised if the next big order is split between New Flyer for rigids and Nova Bus for artics.

 

If it were up to me, the MTA should consider ordering some of these low floors with suburban seats (for fleet flexibility).

[BJC]

I wonder where the money will be coming from to buy these buses?Does the MTA really need all theses buses?

[BZGuy]

With all these new buses coming in as diesels,what becomes of the CNG operations at College Point,Spring Creek,Jackie Gleason and West Farms?

 

IIRC CP,SC and JG were on the list to get new buses on the next round. Unless the is has some plan on taking LIs CNGs back...and even then they still have alot of buses to replace at these depots.

 

They spent got alot of time and money invested in "hybrid" technology, it seems a shame to let that go to waste.

[East New York]

Indeed, It makes alot more sense then just diving in ordering 800+ buses without fully testing on NYC streets for at least a year.

 

They did test them. The OG's have the exact same frame, and 3 different NG's tested before the order was placed.

 

I think though that performance will come into play here; I would not be surprised if the next big order is split between New Flyer for rigids and Nova Bus for artics.

 

If it were up to me, the MTA should consider ordering some of these low floors with suburban seats (for fleet flexibility).

 

I believe performance, and reliability will be the top two deciding factors.

 

I wonder where the money will be coming from to buy these buses?Does the MTA really need all theses buses?

 

The TA has money secured for 2,375 buses through 2014. And yes we do need all these buses, and very bad. It's just about time to retire around 1,000 buses over the next year and a half.

[East New York]

With all these new buses coming in as diesels,what becomes of the CNG operations at College Point,Spring Creek,Jackie Gleason and West Farms?

 

IIRC CP,SC and JG were on the list to get new buses on the next round. Unless the is has some plan on taking LIs CNGs back...and even then they still have alot of buses to replace at these depots.

 

They spent got alot of time and money invested in "hybrid" technology, it seems a shame to let that go to waste.

 

We have 475 new CNG's (including options) coming in starting next December. Spring Creek is going back to an all CNG local fleet.

[JayJay85]

They did test them. The OG's have the exact same frame, and 3 different NG's tested before the order was placed.

 

 

 

I believe performance, and reliability will be the top two deciding factors.

 

 

 

The TA has money secured for 2,375 buses through 2014. And yes we do need all these buses, and very bad. It's just about time to retire around 1,000 buses over the next year and a half.

 

in about 4-5 years all the RTS buses should be gone by 2014 or 2015

i guess 1999 RTS NovaBUS 4900-5249 will be last to go.

[East New York]

in about 4-5 years all the RTS buses should be gone by 2014 or 2015

i guess 1999 RTS NovaBUS 4900-5249 will be last to go.

 

4900-5104, 9526-9699 are all 1998 models. 5105-5249 are the '99's. 5000-5249 were originally supposed to be overhauled, then the TA added in 4900-4999. If any of these buses get scrapped before the overhauls are complete, they will start selecting buses from the 9526-9699 batch. Expect the last of the RTS' to stick around until about 2016. Hopefully by then we will have some brand new RTS' coming in.

[nycbusfan]

4900-5104, 9526-9699 are all 1998 models. 5105-5249 are the '99's. 5000-5249 were originally supposed to be overhauled, then the TA added in 4900-4999. If any of these buses get scrapped before the overhauls are complete, they will start selecting buses from the 9526-9699 batch. Expect the last of the RTS' to stick around until about 2016. Hopefully by then we will have some brand new RTS' coming in.

Are you saying that the is considering Millenium? I would love to see a new RTS hit the streets of NYC.

[East New York]

Are you saying that the is considering Millenium? I would love to see a new RTS hit the streets of NYC.

 

As of right now, no. But in the near future I expect them to be working together. That's pretty much all I can say about that right now.

[Joel Up Front]

I thought Millenium was basically gone....

[w8Hou]

Are you saying that the is considering Millenium? I would love to see a new RTS hit the streets of NYC.

 

MTA is done with the RTS ordering. They are moving on to other bus platforms. Millennium Transit is still in bankruptcy and MTA already saw what had happen to NJ Transit order with Millennium...what a risky decision.

[East New York]

MTA is done with the RTS ordering. They are moving on to other bus platforms. Millennium Transit is still in bankruptcy and MTA already saw what had happen to NJ Transit order with Millennium...what a risky decision.

 

That's pretty much what the TA said about New Flyer...... So don't be so sure.

[w8Hou]

That's pretty much what the TA said about New Flyer...... So don't be so sure.

That dispute was mainly contract reasons and they are not in Millennium Transit situation.

 

 

MTA is done with RTS. They are not buying high floor transits. RTS has no low floor product being marketed right now. The company is in bankruptcy and litigation. No major transit agency will buy RTS w/ that company after NJT contract screw up order.

[East New York]

That dispute was mainly contract reasons and they are not in Millennium Transit situation.

 

 

MTA is done with RTS. They are not buying high floor transits. RTS has no low floor product being marketed right now. The company is in bankruptcy and litigation. No major transit agency will buy RTS w/ that company after NJT contract screw up order.

 

I guess we will just have to wait and see then. Because to be truthfully honest, you can't say the MTA will never order another RTS. And when I referenced New Flyer, it was because the TA said they were done with New Flyer. And the failed NJT deal had nothing to do with any contract. So until you know for sure yourself, there is no need in you making a definitive statement. You have no idea what is going on behind the scenes right now. And you have no place to speak on behalf of the major TA's in the country. When the time comes, we will see exactly what happens. Although, I could pretty much tell you how that scenario will play out.

[East New York]

Tomorrow morning(Nov. 5), executives from DBNA will meet with the MTA to go over the Orion proposal they submitted. All the underlying details of the pending order will have to be sorted out. The specifications will be finalized tomorrow as well.

 

As of right now, the order will be built similar to the specs of the Nova order. This is a brief breakdown of the order as it stands:

 

-75 buses will feature the Allison Transmission.

-15 buses will be equipped with ZF Ecolife Transmissions, disc brakes, and optional electrical components.

 

I will post more details as they come in. The exact specs will be set in stone tomorrow. It appears as if the D40LFR order will end up coming out the same as well. More details of that one should be coming in very soon as well. MTA would like to have that order finalized by December or January at the latest.