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Wouldn't this have worked for a service cut?


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Here is a very simple summary of this thread in FIVE sentences:

 

1-A very small handful of people think cutting overnight service is a good idea.

 

2-But in reality it is a stupid idea because NYC is a unique "city that never sleeps" which has residents and businesses that RELY on overnight service for employment or business.

 

3-Some people feel that substituting buses for trains overnight is a good idea.

 

4-But it is a horrible idea because buses cost more to run per passenger than trains do, and they provide significantly slower service than trains do which is not acceptable when overnight headways on buses and trains are quite lengthy

 

5-Therefore cutting overnight service, or running buses instead of trains, are both horrible ideas and should not be implemented.

 

THANK YOU for this useful post! :(

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I was thinking about why trains still run at night. After all, in every other major city there is no such thing as 24hr service. For the shorter routes and train service in the extreme outerboroughs, they should just substitute for shuttle bus or have most trains run once an hour. Except for the few that work, many people are not really out during those times. During those times, lots of maintenance can be done, reducing the cost of future "emergancy" maintenance...the trains probably will be in better shape too.

 

Actually i stated earlier in this thread Chicago's CTA, Philadelphia/South New Jersey's Patco and closer to home in NYC the Path are run 24/7 but with 30-60 minute headways appx. between 130am-5am daily.

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In Chicago they only keep 2 lines operational for 24/7. I wonder if we can shut down some lines for the night and keep others open 24/7. But then the question becomes which line? I mean do we need all trains operational 24/7?

 

For RTOMan who sounds like he only looks at it from his own union view and making money for himself (that was insulting what he said to Miss W IMO)and I don't care if he hates that remark if anyone disagrees with him they idiots. I thought this site was for all views to be addressed.

Again I also strongly disagree with Miss W on overnight service but the way RTO man replied to her was IMO very rude and uncalled for.

 

Plus he has blocked his PM so i can address my disagreements with him sometimes in private and not mean to be rude but speaking the truth.

 

With that said Korean, the issue of shuttle buses on short routes like the Rockaway Park (S) or running 40-60 minute headways on a shuttle train overnight like the Rock Park (S)should be looked at.

 

 

Too bad people like NIMBY"s, MTA Exces and TWU Exces don't want change and they along with the shortchanging by NY state politicans who are scared to raise taxes to pay for (MTA) services to be re-elected are the reasons the riding public are in this mess.

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In Chicago they only keep 2 lines operational for 24/7. I wonder if we can shut down some lines for the night and keep others open 24/7. But then the question becomes which line? I mean do we need all trains operational 24/7?

 

That is already being done & no other lines need to be shut-down overnights.

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For RTOMan who sounds like he only looks at it from his own union view and making money for himself (that was insulting what he said to Miss W IMO)and I don't care if he hates that remark if anyone disagrees with him they idiots. I thought this site was for all views to be addressed.

 

For the record Harry im wondering why i even respond to such an Idiot...

 

Now that being said you better heed this im only going to say it ONCE.

 

Listen YOUNG MAN and get this in your head who in the heck are you to even say this? You are a a sad case of "wannabe itis", my own union views?

 

Listen kid you attack me you better be ready to play with the big boys.

 

Plus he has blocked his PM so i can address my disagreements with him sometimes in private and not mean to be rude but speaking the truth.

 

NOW you are lying why do you have to make a bald face lie such as that?

 

Now we can add that to your pitful resume as well.

 

You kid are Pathetic yell yer "brother" i said that.

 

ANYBODY on this site will back me up anybody..

 

You?

 

I suggest you stop lying before it gets you into trouble.

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For the record Harry im wondering why i even respond to such an Idiot...

 

Now that being said you better heed this im only going to say it ONCE.

 

Listen YOUNG MAN and get this in your head who in the heck are you to even say this? You are a a sad case of "wannabe itis", my own union views?

 

Listen kid you attack me you better be ready to play with the big boys.

 

 

 

NOW you are lying why do you have to make a bald face lie such as that?

 

Now we can add that to your pitful resume as well.

 

You kid are Pathetic yell yer "brother" i said that.

 

ANYBODY on this site will back me up anybody..

 

You?

 

I suggest you stop lying before it gets you into trouble.

 

I did get a message saying RTO man is not taking PM messages and that is not a lie. Maybe it's off by mistake but I did wanted to send PM messages with my comments and I did get that mesage.

 

Again i just disagreed with way you treated Miss W. I agree she was wrong on suggesting to end 24/7 subway service but there was a way to be more civil that my point.

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I did get a message saying RTO man is not taking PM messages and that is not a lie. Maybe it's off by mistake but I did wanted to send PM messages with my comments and I did get that mesage.

 

Again i just disagreed with way you treated Miss W. I agree she was wrong on suggesting to end 24/7 subway service but there was a way to be more civil that my point.

 

I dont have you on my iggy list young man if you got something to say it say it here .

 

So im guessing you dont ride the trains @ 0200 hrs in the morning in NYC right?

 

These words was already spoken before by the OP...

 

You related to him?

 

^^^^^You call THIS not being civil you have alot of growing up to do a lot...

 

You can start by stop lying...

 

BTW for the record i dont stoop to kid level and attack a poster in a thread over an irrelevant topic like you do.

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I dont have you on my iggy list young man if you got something to say it say it here .

 

So im guessing you dont ride the trains @ 0200 hrs in the morning in NYC right?

 

These words was already spoken before by the OP...

 

You related to him?

 

^^^^^You call THIS not being civil you have alot of growing up to do a lot...

 

You can start by stop lying...

 

You need to grow up by stop accusing me of being related to OP or Miss W. I did tried to PM you about the way you talk here and all i get is RTO has chosen to block receive PM messages.

 

With that said I am done with you RTO man and I will not say anything more. Have a nice life.

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You need to grow up by stop accusing me of being related to OP or Miss W.

 

Now you are delusional where did i say that????

 

I did tried to PM you about the way you talk here and all i get is RTO has chosen to block receive PM messages.

 

Liar....

 

Fw: B Div Pick

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTOMan

Will it be the same work program you sent me ZMan? Did they cut more Jobs?

 

Thanks for your Help, Stomach is ok, not great but going to work. Enjoy your day.

 

Same program with a few minor changes.

 

 

With that said I am done with you RTO man and I will not say anything more. Have a nice life.

 

No skin off my back liar my life is great much better than yours im sure...

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With that said Korean, the issue of shuttle buses on short routes like the Rockaway Park (S) or running 40-60 minute headways on a shuttle train overnight like the Rock Park (S)should be looked at.

 

This too has already been "looked at" and addressed. BUSES COST MORE PER PASSENGER TO RUN THAN SUBWAYS DO, AND THEY PROVIDE SLOWER SERVICE. Therefore they are not the solution.

 

How many times does this need to be explained to all the bus bunnies on this forum???

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1. In fact, let us remember in the original doomsday, they wanted to cut buses that ran under subway lines because of the costs and redundant routing, being that its cheaper to run trains than buses. They wanted to force people to use the train whenever possible.

 

2. Also, not all subway lines run near major roads that can be used for bus traffic. (5) shuttle cuts through backyards and splits side streets and what not, there is no road that goes directly from Dyre to 180th. It takes 4x as long for a shuttle bus to go end to end then the 11 minutes the train takes. They will run 30 minute shuttles in an absolute block if they can before opting to shut down the line entirely and substitute it with bus service.

 

3. There are certain lines or portion of lines that have to run 24/7 because they're the only form of public transport in town. The (6) between 125th and Pelham, the (2) between 241st and 96th are some IRT examples. Any piece of the system where one line serves it exclusively must have 24/7 service. Bus substitutions just doesn't work, unless its a very special situation like the good ole (3) shuttle bus. That might be the only exception, where that one bus (and a handful of operators) used for that shuttle was probably cheaper than having several train crews maintain overnight 10 car service to Times Sq.

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Actually i stated earlier in this thread Chicago's CTA, Philadelphia/South New Jersey's Patco and closer to home in NYC the Path are run 24/7 but with 30-60 minute headways appx. between 130am-5am daily.

 

Sorry, haven't read through the whole thread, just the last two pages to get a general idea. I'm not related to anyone here, just expressing my views. ^^; (arguing isn't my style, I'm staying on the transportation topics).

 

1. In fact, let us remember in the original doomsday, they wanted to cut buses that ran under subway lines because of the costs and redundant routing, being that its cheaper to run trains than buses. They wanted to force people to use the train whenever possible.

 

2. Also, not all subway lines run near major roads that can be used for bus traffic. (5) shuttle cuts through backyards and splits side streets and what not, there is no road that goes directly from Dyre to 180th. It takes 4x as long for a shuttle bus to go end to end then the 11 minutes the train takes. They will run 30 minute shuttles in an absolute block if they can before opting to shut down the line entirely and substitute it with bus service.

 

3. There are certain lines or portion of lines that have to run 24/7 because they're the only form of public transport in town. The (6) between 125th and Pelham, the (2) between 241st and 96th are some IRT examples. Any piece of the system where one line serves it exclusively must have 24/7 service. Bus substitutions just doesn't work, unless its a very special situation like the good ole (3) shuttle bus. That might be the only exception, where that one bus (and a handful of operators) used for that shuttle was probably cheaper than having several train crews maintain overnight 10 car service to Times Sq.

 

Here is a very simple summary of this thread in FIVE sentences:

 

1-A very small handful of people think cutting overnight service is a good idea.

 

2-But in reality it is a stupid idea because NYC is a unique "city that never sleeps" which has residents and businesses that RELY on overnight service for employment or business.

 

3-Some people feel that substituting buses for trains overnight is a good idea.

 

4-But it is a horrible idea because buses cost more to run per passenger than trains do, and they provide significantly slower service than trains do which is not acceptable when overnight headways on buses and trains are quite lengthy

 

5-Therefore cutting overnight service, or running buses instead of trains, are both horrible ideas and should not be implemented.

 

Ok, I see why its bad to replace trains with overnight buses. Even so, I do wonder how other major cities pull it off so well (not replacing trains with buses but generally shortening/cutting overnight services..

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Other cities probably have more people that drive from outlying areas. Also, there are fewer 24 hour stores that require fewer night workers, and clubs don't finish at 4am in those cities as they do here. I went to Boston to club once on a Friday night (special artist performance) and at 1am it was over. I actually was back here in NY by 4am. My friends/friends of friends in other cities also comment that their clubs close at 2am or 3am latest, and many leave early as public transport shuts down round 2am. The rest drive, as you don't have to drive out as far to find every house has a driveway. To find definite driving neighborhoods in NYC from midtown...

 

Bronx - Throgs Neck/Country club, more than 12 miles from midtown.

 

Manhattan - none.

 

Queens - At least Woodside (decent street parking), more acceptable is Jamaica out by the end of the (F) train or Flushing.

 

Brooklyn - Midwood...

 

In other cities, only a few miles from the center of town do you find houses that come with driveways, and of course less congestion making driving more feasible, taking possible overnight ridership away. Also 24/7 Walmarts are also available in these places, with parking lots...

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By the way, not to take sides, but the argument that trains are more efficient than buses can be refuted by all of the elevated lines that were torn down (the Myrtle Avenue Line in 1969, the 3rd Avenue Line in 1973, and the Culver Shuttle in 1975). Obviously, I'm not advocating for an entire system shutdown at night, but the people who say that certain lines could be shut down at night have a reasonable point.

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By the way, not to take sides, but the argument that trains are more efficient than buses can be refuted by all of the elevated lines that were torn down (the Myrtle Avenue Line in 1969, the 3rd Avenue Line in 1973, and the Culver Shuttle in 1975). Obviously, I'm not advocating for an entire system shutdown at night, but the people who say that certain lines could be shut down at night have a reasonable point.

 

Yeah, I think so too.. (I'm against elevated being torn down though, xD).

 

Other cities probably have more people that drive from outlying areas. Also, there are fewer 24 hour stores that require fewer night workers, and clubs don't finish at 4am in those cities as they do here. I went to Boston to club once on a Friday night (special artist performance) and at 1am it was over. I actually was back here in NY by 4am. My friends/friends of friends in other cities also comment that their clubs close at 2am or 3am latest, and many leave early as public transport shuts down round 2am. The rest drive, as you don't have to drive out as far to find every house has a driveway. To find definite driving neighborhoods in NYC from midtown...

 

Bronx - Throgs Neck/Country club, more than 12 miles from midtown.

 

Manhattan - none.

 

Queens - At least Woodside (decent street parking), more acceptable is Jamaica out by the end of the (F) train or Flushing.

 

Brooklyn - Midwood...

 

In other cities, only a few miles from the center of town do you find houses that come with driveways, and of course less congestion making driving more feasible, taking possible overnight ridership away. Also 24/7 Walmarts are also available in these places, with parking lots...

 

Hm, Japan and London don't neccessarily rely on cars like major US cities. When I was in Japan, actually Tokyo, the train service ended at 1am and resume at 5am (I've seen mad dashes for the last trains, xD)...Tokyo is just as big as NY, or more so, and relies on trains just like NY...or more so. Tokyo is also busy for most hours of the day, which means they know how to balance ongoing city life and a city that mainly rely on trains with a non 24 hr service.

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Ok, I see why its bad to replace trains with overnight buses. Even so, I do wonder how other major cities pull it off so well (not replacing trains with buses but generally shortening/cutting overnight services..

As far as I know of, only SEPTA in Philadelphia does this, replacing the Market Street-Frankford Line and Broad Street Subway with buses late nights.

 

PATCO does operate 24/7.

 

Next to New York City, only the CTA in Chicago offers 24/7 service, but it's small - only the Red and Blue Line (The Brown Line does operate as a Kimball - Belmont shuttle until 2 or 2:30am Monday-Saturday) and a few key bus routes.

 

Other cites offer extended service on Fridays and Saturdays - In Washington, D.C. operates Metrorail until 3am; In Phoenix, Metro (our light rail line) operates until 3am (for a time, Tempe was operating at least one or two bus routes until 2 or 2:15am Friday and Saturday).

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Sorry for the little bump...

the issue of shuttle buses on short routes like the Rockaway Park (S) or running 40-60 minute headways on a shuttle train overnight like the Rock Park (S)should be looked at.

Shuttle buses are more expensive than shuttle trains.

What would be the objective of 60-minute headways on the Rock Park (S)? As far as I can tell, the (S) is not interlined with anything else, so the only thing such a long headway would cause is the crew idling at each terminal for 20+ minutes, while the customers are freezing/uncomfortable.

 

As far as I know of, only SEPTA in Philadelphia does this, replacing the Market Street-Frankford Line and Broad Street Subway with buses late nights.

Toronto pulls this off as well, replacing most of its subway with special "Blue Night Buses". http://www3.ttc.ca/images/fixedImages/TTC-bluenight.pdf

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This is the wrong attitude for New Yorkers to have about this topic. Virtually EVERY other major city shuts down subway service for the late night hours and we do not. What makes NY special? NOTHING does.

Our sytem is so much bigger than any other system's in America that shutting down the entire system means that people can have ridiculously long commutes to their workplaces in Manhattan. Also, nightlife would be completely shut down in the city this way causing a serious blow to the NYC economy.

Shutting down late night service seems to be a huge inconvience to some New Yorkers. The reality is our subway system can use a huge cleansing job, some station rehab and a huge track upgrade so trackwork doesn't need to be done every other weekend. My 5 train is routinely affected by weekend work. The late night time window is a great time to clean up the system and do all of this work as it inconviences the least amount of riders. More people are riding the train during the weekend and midday hours than the late night hours. The amount of people affected by 12-9's, GO's and every other preventable delay is far higher than the number that ride the trains late night. And besides why give the homeless people another place to roam?

Nearly all subway delays are preventable. So let's start preventing them by fixing the infastructure when it effects a smaller group of riders.

You are "inconveniencing" less people but the magnitude in which you are inconveniencing them is FAR greater. You may have to backtrack during weekend GO's, but you still maintain a basic level of weekend service. If you have NO service at night then you trap people at home. I've been on an (E) train leaving Penn Station heading to Queens at 2:30 AM that was completely SRO.

Ok, I see why its bad to replace trains with overnight buses. Even so, I do wonder how other major cities pull it off so well (not replacing trains with buses but generally shortening/cutting overnight services..

Less ridership, smaller systems (so the amount of people affected is much smaller and by a lesser magnitutde).

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