NX Express Posted August 21, 2010 Share #76 Posted August 21, 2010 Are they planning to fix these issues(if they exist)? If not, there's going to be an issue when the R68s retire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R32 3838 Posted August 21, 2010 Share #77 Posted August 21, 2010 I don't give a shit who throws a fit. I care when f**ksticks who have done nothing for the hobby get behind their keyboards and talk shit about those who do. You're the one who's pissed off that R32's are running out of 207 Yd. I can't wait to see your reaction in 5 years when they're getting dumped in the ocean and you want to cry because the transit museum isn't running 3 R32 nostalgia trains every year. It doesn't matter, they are on their time anyway, im glad to still see them in service, I don't care if they are still on the , Pitkin yard kicks ass when it comes to mantanice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R32 3838 Posted August 21, 2010 Share #78 Posted August 21, 2010 Are they planning to fix these issues(if they exist)? If not, there's going to be an issue when the R68s retire. Trust me NX, you will be riding the out dated subway cars on the for a long time, there is no problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NX Express Posted August 21, 2010 Share #79 Posted August 21, 2010 Trust me NX, you will be riding the out dated subway cars on the for a long time, there is no problem. It's only what? 20 years? Not much at all. Then come the NTTs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R44 5278 Posted August 21, 2010 Share #80 Posted August 21, 2010 Well then that's your choice. No offense but I don't need to prove anything to you to know that what I'm saying is the reason they don't run R160's on that line. To be honest I don't care what line has what fleet, I only wanted to emphasize some Physics behind this topic. Likewise, a person with common sense should be able to infer the facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubwayGuy Posted August 21, 2010 Share #81 Posted August 21, 2010 I doesn't matter how many runs out there, Its just a cover up so the senior T/O's don't have to deal with computer junk, I know the shit that goes on when it comes to the . Yup it's all just one big cover up right and you're gonna stick it to the man now that you've got the inside scoop and literally no one else does... It doesn't matter, they are on their time anyway, im glad to still see them in service, I don't care if they are still on the , Pitkin yard kicks ass when it comes to mantanice. OK Good that's progress see now you're learning, the cars are on borrowed time, since you like them why don't you enjoy them while they're still around instead of complaining about minutia and talking shit over the internet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubwayGuy Posted August 21, 2010 Share #82 Posted August 21, 2010 To be honest I don't care what line has what fleet, I only wanted to emphasize some Physics behind this topic. Likewise, a person with common sense should be able to infer the facts. I understand that but you're looking at it from a textbook perspective which is your first mistake. Not everything is as simple as the textbook. The textbooks isolates factors to make you understand their cause and effect. In the real world, all factors work together at the same time creating an extremely complicated situation. You have voltage drop from substations to third rail, then from each section of third rail to train. Just because DC electricity suffers voltage drop when transmitted over long distances, which is why ConEd feeds the substations with AC because AC is less prone to voltage drop than DC over long distances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R44 5278 Posted August 21, 2010 Share #83 Posted August 21, 2010 I understand that but you're looking at it from a textbook perspective which is your first mistake. Not everything is as simple as the textbook. The textbooks isolates factors to make you understand their cause and effect. In the real world, all factors work together at the same time creating an extremely complicated situation. You have voltage drop from substations to third rail, then from each section of third rail to train. Just because DC electricity suffers voltage drop when transmitted over long distances, which is why ConEd feeds the substations with AC because AC is less prone to voltage drop than DC over long distances. No I am not looking from a textbook's perspective; textbooks teach people how to memorize formulas. My emphasis is on the AC Induction Motors themselves in the fact that they can take any voltage (~~600v, higher or lower) to create a higher voltage for running the train. That's what doesn't make sense. Also, can you specify on percentage of voltage drop please? On the other hand, INDman tells me that the current is not constant. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that there are no neutral sections for third rail lines. Now what happens when the train (even DC motored) enters the break and touches both the ConEd and LIPA-powered 3rd Rails? Doesn't the train "connect a circuit? How can the train run if current is not constant?" Finally, Joe is telling me is that the train's computer cannot constantly control how much voltage is induced, which subsequently halts the system to prevent overloads. How can I believe this when first off, you, INDman, and Joe were talking about 3 different issues (one of which is completely senseless)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubwayGuy Posted August 21, 2010 Share #84 Posted August 21, 2010 On the other hand, INDman tells me that the current is not constant. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that there are no neutral sections for third rail lines. Now what happens when the train (even DC motored) enters the break and touches both the ConEd and LIPA-powered 3rd Rails? Doesn't the train "connect a circuit? How can the train run if current is not constant?" This is by definition necessary on ALL third rail circuits in NYCT. If there is a power off section of third rail and what you say were the case, the train would energize the third rail the second a shoe crossed into it and thus putting workers anywhere along said section at risk. This was a problem with the old Hi-V cars on the IRT and why special purple signs were placed to signal power off zones so that the trains were careful not to bridge the sections. Finally, Joe is telling me is that the train's computer cannot constantly control how much voltage is induced, which subsequently halts the system to prevent overloads. How can I believe this when first off, you, INDman and Joe were talking about 3 different issues (one of which is completely senseless)? If there is voltage drop, the train's preset "tuning" will not be correct for its needs. Everything is calibrated. What Joe was saying is that the Solid State components on the tech trains do not have the ability to compensate for variations to continue running the trains normally. I was explaining those variations. If you put the two together, we have the complete picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rr4567 Posted August 21, 2010 Share #85 Posted August 21, 2010 Amperage has nothing to do with the R160 computers. Amperage or Amperes is the measure of current in a circuit (600v 3rd Rail). In a circuit (even one with different output voltage sources), the current has to be constant in order for it to function. EVERYTHING electrical requires a set amperage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R44 5278 Posted August 21, 2010 Share #86 Posted August 21, 2010 EVERYTHING electrical requires a set amperage. It's funny how you're contradicting what you said earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest lance25 Posted August 21, 2010 Share #87 Posted August 21, 2010 What everyone is saying is that while they're enough power to run a few R160s on the Rockaways branch, there isn't to run numerous trains back and forth. It's similar, if not the same, to overloading a circuit in your house. Sure, you can plug in your air conditioner and a few other electronics into one circuit just fine, but if you try to power your A/C, home entertainment system, oven, fridge and any other large energy-consuming electronics, you'll probably overload the circuit and everything will shut off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R44 5278 Posted August 21, 2010 Share #88 Posted August 21, 2010 This is by definition necessary on ALL third rail circuits in NYCT. If there is a power off section of third rail and what you say were the case, the train would energize the third rail the second a shoe crossed into it and thus putting workers anywhere along said section at risk. This was a problem with the old Hi-V cars on the IRT and why special purple signs were placed to signal power off zones so that the trains were careful not to bridge the sections. If there is voltage drop, the train's preset "tuning" will not be correct for its needs. Everything is calibrated. What Joe was saying is that the Solid State components on the tech trains do not have the ability to compensate for variations to continue running the trains normally. I was explaining those variations. If you put the two together, we have the complete picture. Thanks for your time, but I need to do some calculations on my own for this topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Posted August 21, 2010 Share #89 Posted August 21, 2010 What is irrelevant? Doesn't it make sense to you that the AC Motors used in these trains are Induction Motors over Synchronous Motors? From my understanding, induction (much in the way of a car's ignition system) is how the motors get 625v to run the train after drawing 600v from the third rail. I'm not trying to be rude here, but I know that people who works with railroad components should at least know that there is more than one type of AC Traction Motor. Why are you even bringing up synchronous motors? Do you even know the big difference between induction and synchronous motors? Induction is the method by which power is supplied to the rotor in an AC induction motor. Induction is -not- how the motor itself is powered. You must be thinking of the inverter, which supplies the motors with three-phase AC from the DC third rail. I have no idea what a cars' ignition system has to do with any of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R32 3348 Posted August 21, 2010 Share #90 Posted August 21, 2010 My concern is not of the fact that they made it to Rockaways, but rather of any "incidents" of "problems" along their way to the Rockaways. Since no solid proof exists, I am not convinced by people or even employees telling me that a problem exists. There is solid proof, that proof being that R160s are not running on the . IINM, they were first going to go to the and lines but certain problems prevented that from happening. And fixing the problem was probably nto considered seriously enough because there wasn't any dire need to put new cars on the line, through RTO's eyes. The only reason there is no "solid proof" of this issue is because all the "proof" you see is of one train in the Rockaways. If someone took a video of the R160 Rockaway run, then you wouldn't see any problems because it wouldn't be interacting with several other trains on the line (in terms of electrical current). Are they planning to fix these issues(if they exist)? If not, there's going to be an issue when the R68s retire. They have no choice but to, eventually. Thanks for your time, but I need to do some calculations on my own for this topic. Calculations won't take real-life factors (which are ever-changing) into account. Even though it makes sense to do it scientifically, you can calculate that it would be possible to run R160s out in the Rockaways (assuming current apparent conditions) but that's considering ideal conditions. Real-life conditions would be different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R44 5278 Posted August 21, 2010 Share #91 Posted August 21, 2010 If someone took a video of the R160 Rockaway run, then you wouldn't see any problems because it wouldn't be interacting with several other trains on the line (in terms of electrical current). Doesn't the "issue" pertain with one train at a time running through the flats? How is it that one train is sucking all the power in that section? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R32 3348 Posted August 21, 2010 Share #92 Posted August 21, 2010 Doesn't the "issue" pertain with one train at a time running through the flats? How is it that one train is sucking all the power in that section? Here's what I (well, INDMan) was referring to: I'm not electrical expert, but the R160s are very sensitive to power drops and when there are several of them out on the Rock at the same time taking power, systems on the trains shut down. They have had problems out there since IND service started since the power near Far Rock comer from LIPA. This all came from people at RCC, CED, and line supervision. The problem was and IS that when you have several R160s out in the Rockaways at the same time, the amperage dropped. This drop would cause systems on the trains to shut down and cause the trains to stop. The problem has not been fixed, but cars can still test out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INDman Posted August 21, 2010 Share #93 Posted August 21, 2010 Doesn't the "issue" pertain with one train at a time running through the flats? How is it that one train is sucking all the power in that section? Where did you get that idea? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R44 5278 Posted August 21, 2010 Share #94 Posted August 21, 2010 Where did you get that idea? When Joe brought up the issue of Solid State Circuit problems in a train's computer, isn't that solidly referring to one train having problems picking up a range of voltages? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INDman Posted August 21, 2010 Share #95 Posted August 21, 2010 When Joe brought up the issue of Solid State Circuit problems in a train's computer, isn't that solidly referring to one train having problems picking up a range of voltages? No, the whole problem is when you have several train out there at the same time. Let me give you a real life example. Up at BERA, we have 1 substation to power the whole line. It is located at the "A" end of the line. As you get closer to the "B" end of the line, about a mile or so away, the lights on the cars get dimmer when you go to take power. When we run our subway cars, this is very noticeable. If I am at the "B" end of the line with the R17 and I wrap the controller, it will draw so much power that the substation will overload and drop out. Even if I notch up slowly, other cars will also dim as more power is being dawn by the subway car. Now, the R17 has relays for everything which will work when the power is within a certain range. If I were to (let use our imagination here) and R160 on the BERA main line, there is a very good chance it would not run because the solid state components would not like the drop in power. If several other cars are running at the same time, they would draw too much power for the R160 to operate. This is what is going on in the Rockaways, other trains draw power away from one train which causes problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Posted August 21, 2010 Share #96 Posted August 21, 2010 Haha, just imagine a NTT on the line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R44 5278 Posted August 21, 2010 Share #97 Posted August 21, 2010 Haha, just imagine a NTT on the line. I can imagine too well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INDman Posted August 21, 2010 Share #98 Posted August 21, 2010 Haha, just imagine a NTT on the line. I think J would set the damn thing on fire before it hit the rails. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Posted August 21, 2010 Share #99 Posted August 21, 2010 I wouldn't let that thing taint the museum. I'd rather have 629 than an R160. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubwayGuy Posted August 22, 2010 Share #100 Posted August 22, 2010 I think J would set the damn thing on fire before it hit the rails. If so, I think you found a replacement for the Iowa Sweeper if you ever decide to have a Viking funeral Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.