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MTA's Robotrains prove to have a mind of their own as some go rogue on L line

Queens Surface

By Queens Surface,
in New York City Subway

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CTK246

CTK246

Posted
Posted

Automation is a bad idea IMO. Software glitches occasionally. If future glitches happen, it'll lead to delays and inconvienices.

 

 

And on the whole F Train Fan thing....just let him be. Sure he likes R160s, and so do I. I'm sure most of us were hype like him when the 160 first came out...

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553 Bridgeton Bus Operator

553 Bridgeton

Posted
Posted
You guys are all so mean! FYI , we park slopers have very soft hearts! Teasing and calling me mentally challenged is NOT OK! It's bad enough people will ridicule me in school in 2 weeks when I mention just ONE sentence

about trains! you guys are the only ones I know(Besides my family and my mentee , James) that like the subway/bus system just as much as I do! please don't be disrespectful to me on this forum. I know some of my post are a bit weird and sometimes inaccurate , but you guys don't have to be so mean about it. Please! I'm not asking for a boatload here. I just got scared after reading this since I thought it would effect the R160s running on the (F) , and that the MTA might order Jamaica to put half R46s back on the (F) and now that the (F)'s open to the connecter between to Broadway-Lafayette street and Essex street , a R46 (F) could accidentally end up @ Essex street , the line could be ruined for days! That's why i was worried!

ruined (F) service=epic fail for the entire system! So please don't be mean. Thank you!

 

What in the blue hell does this have to do with CBTC? The (F) has nothing to do with CBTC, get over it.

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rr4567

rr4567

Posted
Posted

I kinda figured things like this were happening

 

Time to upgrade to windows 7.

Yeah, because everybody loves seeing this:

 

cbtclk.png

 

 

Trains are meant to be run by motormen, not computers.

beep.

 

Going to automation is a GREAT idea if we want to have the safety record of the Washington DC Metro.

 

postercbo.png

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Roadcruiser1

Roadcruiser1

Posted
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I don't feel safe looking at that picture above. The New York City Subway has people falling off the platform. What if the computer automated train doesn't stop and kill the person. What if the train is hijacked by a virus. What if someone runs into the train and hijacks it. How would a person feel when they see a train come in without a driver in it. I don't know how they would feel but I know how I will fee insecure. Today the news mentioned a T/O stopped the train on time to save a women on the tracks (MTA). What would happen if it was automated.

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R32 3348

R32 3348

Posted
Posted
postercbo.png

CBTC =/= ATO. Also, this isn't WMATA.

I don't feel safe looking at that picture above. The New York City Subway has people falling off the platform. What if the computer automated train doesn't stop and kill the person. What if the train is hijacked by a virus. What if someone runs into the train and hijacks it. How would a person feel when they see a train come in without a driver in it. I don't know how they would feel but I know how I will fee insecure. Today the news mentioned a T/O stopped the train on time to save a women on the tracks (MTA). What would happen if it was automated.

If something went wrong then the T/O in the front would take control over the train - just like in the situations that occured in the article. It's not like the (MTA) is considering ZPTO.

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TransitStop

TransitStop

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Posted
I don't feel safe looking at that picture above. The New York City Subway has people falling off the platform. What if the computer automated train doesn't stop and kill the person. What if the train is hijacked by a virus. What if someone runs into the train and hijacks it. How would a person feel when they see a train come in without a driver in it. I don't know how they would feel but I know how I will fee insecure. Today the news mentioned a T/O stopped the train on time to save a women on the tracks (MTA). What would happen if it was automated.

 

 

o sorry to give you the wrong impression that is actually the rear of the train while on layover here is the train in the forward direction

 

metro.jpg&t=1

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Tokkemon

Tokkemon

Posted
Posted

I just thought I'd throw in my 2 cents about automated trains.

 

I grew up in Vancouver and their fully automated SkyTrain works amazingly well. It works because it was designed back in 1985 to be a completely closed system, fully computerized, and run by linear induction motors. In New York, the system was built with steel-on-steel traditional third-rail transit, a very different context for a subway system, more prone to maintenance issues because of its age.

 

There's only been raves about the extensions to the system with the Canada line and, as Vancouver grows, the SkyTrain will grow with it. (For those of you who don't know, the Canada Line uses the exact same technology as the JFK Airtrain that was recently built. Indeed, it is another exemplary use of automatic transit.)

 

I think the biggest reason, however, why Vancouver's automated system works so well is the people who ride it. Anyone who's ridden the SkyTrain knows how un-aggressive the people are to get on a train, knowing that another will be right behind. They will also not push or shove and no one has ever fallen on to the tracks throughout its entire history. No trains have ever collided. They have one of the best safety records and best on-time records of any metro in the world. So why does it not work in New York?

 

In New York, the (MTA) faces a very different problem than BC Transit. They have to move close to 5 (or 6?) million people every day on their extremely complex transit system. The people who use it also are far more aggressive to get to work. Not to mention overcrowding on several lines and the lack of service in areas where it is desperately needed. People fall on the tracks, hold the doors, run down stairs, fall down, lose things on the train, drop things on the tracks, etc. Lots of chaos for a chaotic commute. The reason automatic trains wouldn't work on the NYC Subway isn't simply money or unwillingness, its simply safety. There are SO many variables for a train to move forward that the computer wouldn't be able to process. Perhaps the single-conductor mode would work as a middle ground, but the only way that could happen is if the entire system's navigational and signaling system was completely replaced with a modern computerized one. Indeed, this would cost billions of dollars and the (MTA) simply doesn't have the funds to do that. Should it happen one day? Absolutely. If it was up to me, the entire system would be revamped, one phase at a time, and slowly but surely, probably over the course of 20 years, the entire system would be modernized and expanded to meet the demands of New Yorkers everywhere.

 

In sum, would automated work in New York? Sure, but not for a loooong time. And while the (MTA) is facing budget woes, they should spend their money on more important things like a smart card system or capital projects.

 

BTW, those of you commenting on glitches, keep in mind that glitches only happen if the programming is faulty. Perfect programming (if such a thing exists) will never have an error or fault. This is how Vancouver's system has never had an accident because of computer malfunction, because the programming is great. That along with, of course, its context of a much smaller and calmer city.

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rr4567

rr4567

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Posted
What if the train is hijacked by a virus

 

Mental image: Osama bin Laden with a laptop :(

 

CBTC =/= ATO. Also, this isn't WMATA.

 

CBTC = ATO

 

"A CBTC can provide different levels of railway automation, grouped in the following major functionalities:

 

* Automatic Train Protection (ATP)

* Automatic train operation (ATO)

* Automatic Train Supervision (ATS)"

 

Not being racist but the African guy in the photo of the poster looks like Walter Garber from the Taking of Pelham 123.

 

It does.

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LRG

LRG

Posted
Posted
I think the safest formula is a combination of man and computers. When one fails, then the other can pick up the slack. I think sole dependence on either one is not good.

 

While I comprehend what you're saying, the worst thing that can happen is when the computer takes over when it's not necessary.

 

Computers don't need to sleep, they don't need to eat. They don't get sick and don't need vacations. They don't get paid and don't complain.

 

Airplanes are flown by computers most of the time (they can take off, fly and land without the help of the pilots) and no one has complained. Imagine the computer technology prior to the invention of the microprocessor. Our armed services used that to fly bombers to attack germany in WWII. Don't beleave me, look up the Norden bombsight.

 

Why is the subway any diffrent. It's only because CBTC is new, and people have adversion to change. If a 650 ton double decker airplaine can do it...

 

One of the main reasons why I don't like air travel anyway....

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R32 3348

R32 3348

Posted
Posted
CBTC = ATO

 

"A CBTC can provide different levels of railway automation, grouped in the following major functionalities:

 

* Automatic Train Protection (ATP)

* Automatic train operation (ATO)

* Automatic Train Supervision (ATS)"

You forgot to quote the next three paragraphs of that Wikipedia article.

 

"CBTC systems range in complexity based on the functionality provided from CBTC systems that provide only the ATP functions to CBTC that provide both the ATP and ATO functions and CBTC that on top of that provide also the ATS functions.

 

All CBTC systems operate in the same basic way. An off board computer can track all trains operating on track linked to the computer. This allows trains to be spaced closer together than on a manually controlled line. The computer sends information to the computers aboard the train.

 

This differs from normal Automatic Train Operation (ATO) systems in that the train is actually controlled by the on board computers. Older ATO systems, such as San Francisco’s BART, use a system where the off board computers control the train."

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YankeesPwnMets

YankeesPwnMets

Posted
Posted

You guys all forgot that computers are easily hacked, because many companies don't install antiviruses on their computers, servers etc, and if a CBTC train gets hacked.... bad things will happen

 

Seriously what up with some people believing hackers & viruses don't exists? Go to a school, turn on a laptop and there are about 30 different pieces of shit in there

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NX Express

NX Express

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Posted
You guys all forgot that computers are easily hacked, because many companies don't install antiviruses on their computers, servers etc, and if a CBTC train gets hacked.... bad things will happen

 

Seriously what up with some people believing hackers & viruses don't exists? Go to a school, turn on a laptop and there are about 30 different pieces of shit in there

 

Do the CBTC computers have any sort of Internet connection with the outside world?

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