Manhattan/General Bus Ideas

[East New York]

The FDR or the Westside highway will work it is less of a deadhead then koming from spring creek, Yokners & CP. As for the museum Fleet Grand Av or ENY old CMF builden kan make a new home for them. I think the pros out weight the cons in trems of Buses Wasting all that gas just to kome back to the city. With amsterdam as a express annex most if not all midday swing would never have to leave manhattan.

 

I have to disagree on this one too. The Museum Fleet just came from ENY. So we will "X" that one off the list. ENY has waaaaaay too much going on to house the museum fleet as well. That freed up a lot of space that is now well used for other buses. That was one of the smartest moves MTA has made to date. The nostalgia of having the museum fleet at Surface Tansit HQ was nice though.

 

Grand Av is a no go as well. Its a CFM. When Artics come to Brooklyn and Queens, I'm sure a few of them will be serviced at Grand here and there.

 

Housing the buses at Quill in the afternoon is the most effective for overall operations. They can fit about 125 MCI's on the roof alone.

 

I do have a feel for the riders, I myself is a daily rider of the M16/M34 going to and from work (mostly the M16 since it stops in front of my job). Once the bus gets to 34 St & 8 Av, the bus basically empties out excepot for maybe 4 people. Traffic on 8 Av between 34 & 42 Sts is a nightmare with all the taxis and buses in and out of PABT. Once the M16 leaves Waterside, it goes right by the M34 terminal by the heliport. The new M34 can (hypothetically) make a stop at the heliport after leaving Waterside and continue on its way to 11 Av. At the M16 first stop on 9 Av & 42 St, about maybe 4 or 5 people get on but they usually get off before 34 St, as an alternative to the M11. If you combine both frequencies of the pair, you'll have 1 bus that comes just as often as 2 buses

 

I see what you are saying, but I think the M16/34 has a nice setup. I've rode both of them plenty of times. The westbound runs pick up more people, and are very convenient when trying to get to PA. On average, the M34 carries only a fraction more people than the M16.

[Kanarsie Guy]

I kan understand that part I know the area around ENY is a nightmare almost all the time. U kan leave them @ AMS that still leaves space for those few dozens wasted deadheads mainly SC, FR, YON & CP. I think that would Keep most of the MCI's on the island midday which is much needed right now.

[Q43LTD]

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I beg to differ....

 

the M16/34 is one of two crosstown "pairings" that's needed in manhattan (the m31/57 being the other)... the MTA got it right by getting rid of the M30 & the M27.... anyway, it's not really about redundancy when you have the M16 serving a certain section of the east side that's cumbersome to get that part of midtown (general area around PABT)....

 

...now w/ the M42 only terminating over there w/ the M50 on the west side at the pier 80's, your "shot" would leave w/e riders @ the javits ctr. dead stranded....

 

 

...and the M20 is noooo alternative; hell w/ off peak, bro - you try waiting for that bus during rush hour.

...and no one's gonna come off the M16/34 & take the , , or 1 stop to port authority; doesn't make sense...

 

 

I see what you're trying to convey with this, but you can't solely look at the map & (fairly) come up w/ these conclusions.... you have to get a feel of/for the riders habits also....

Don't forget, taking the M104 off 42 St

[East New York]

I kan understand that part I know the area around ENY is a nightmare almost all the time. U kan leave them @ AMS that still leaves space for those few dozens wasted deadheads mainly SC, FR, YON & CP. I think that would Keep most of the MCI's on the island midday which is much needed right now.

 

I think MJQ is best. As i said in my last post, they can house 125 MCI's on the room. And AMS is too far uptown. Sure it's coser than the outer boroughs, but I like MJQ better as a solution

 

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Don't forget, taking the M104 off 42 St

 

I think the M104 should have never been taken of 42st. Although it does run a more on-time schedule now.

[Q43LTD]

 

 

I think the M104 should have never been taken of 42st. Although it does run a more on-time schedule now.

I propose the M104 travel down 42 St weekdays and have the Javits Center branch of the M42 revitalized

[Mysterious2train]

With the M42 cut from the Javits Center, some of those riders might have trickled onto the M34. And with the MTA planning on enhancing the M34 with +SelectBusService and what not, wouldn't it be nice to add ridership to the M34?

 

Thus supporting the theory that the MTA is headed by a bunch of evil geniuses manipulating the riderbase not to save money, but rather for their own amusement.

[Gotham Bus Co]

7. The M42: Revive the Javits Center branch.

 

Not gonna happen. That branch never served its intended purpose -- Javits Center management always evicted the M42 during special events to make room for charter buses.

[East New York]

Just to add to the topic, I think we need SBS on 42nd St, and a busway on 125th St.

[Mysterious2train]

Just to add to the topic, I think we need SBS on 42nd St, and a busway on 125th St.

 

This. If you underestimate the traffic on 125th St, you'll be sorry. Plus, 125th St has way more than enough bus traffic to warrant at least a Rush Hour-only bus lane.

[checkmatechamp13]

I shared it in other routes, but I'll do it here.

 

1. The M6: Reinstated, and the M5 returns to its pre-cut terminal.

 

2. The M61: The route is the northern sister of the M60. Its Queens terminal is LaGuardia, but its Manhattan terminal is Riverbank Park vis Broadway.

 

3. The M12: The M1 South Ferry branch is split with a new route. The M12 goes from South Ferry to Grand Central via Park Avenue South.

 

4. The M97: A West Street/11th/W. End Av. limited going from Battery Park City/Veset Street to Columbia University.

 

5. M1: Its weekend terminal is canned.

 

6. The M18: Reinstated and extended to W. 193rd Street.

 

7. The M42: Revive the Javits Center branch.

 

According to the Service Reductions Booklet, the Javits Center Branch served 60 people on weekdays and 40 people on weekends. It's elimination would save $200,000 annually.

 

(60*260)+(40*100)=15,600+4,000=19,600 annual passengers.

 

(weekday passengers*# of weekdays)+(weekend passengers*# of weekends)=annual passengers served

 

annual passengers served/annual savings=cost per passenger

 

200,000/19,600=$10.20 per passenger.

 

By comparison, the average route costs $1.44 per passenger to operate. There is no way a route segment that is over 7 times more expensive to operate than the average route.

 

Though, as Gotham Co Bus said, part of it was due to the charter buses taking priority over the (M42).

 

As far as service to South Ferry, I don't think the (M6) should've stayed as a route by itself. The (M104) can swap terminals with the (M5) south of Columbus Circle, with the (M5) going to the Port Authority Bus Terminal and the (M104) going to South Ferry.

[Amtrak7]

How about reviving the M6 south of Houston St only and basically forcing transfers to/from the M5?

[checkmatechamp13]

That wouldn't work. If a route is going to be split, it is better that is be split at a major transfer point/destination. You don't want to have people making unnecessary transfers.

Bus service in Manhattan has to make up for its relatively slow speed in one way or another, and one of those ways is direct access to a destination (the other is frequency). Once you force people to make a transfer, the bus service loses its value to the passenger.

That being said, if the (M5) had to be split, a better place to do it would be 23rd Street or 14th Street.

[Cait Sith]

How about reviving the M6 south of Houston St only and basically forcing transfers to/from the M5?

 

That wont work at all...

 

As much as I would like the M6 to come back, the M5 is actually doing pretty good, it has some bunching issues but nonetheless, its still running quite well.

 

What I WOULD like to see is the following

 

100th Street Depot to house about 25-30 40ft buses and have the M96 and M106 to move over there (which wont ever happen, but it would make some sort of sense when it comes to deadheads). As an alternative to that plan, have those two routes move to 126th Street, then to have Michael J Quill take the M66 and M72, as then those routes would interline with the M57 and the M42. Have the M5 split with Michael J Quill with Quill buses interlining with the M20 or the M9.

 

Route wise, I'd like to see the M9 extended south to South Ferry or to Battery Park City instead of laying over at City Hall, ridership has dropped tremendously since the change, and to also decrease the headways from 15 minutes to at least 10-12 minutes. Have select M104s to be extended to Grand Central or 2nd Avenue, extend the M98 to 42nd Street, cutting it all the way to 68th made no sense, ridership was pretty big between 34th and 68th and SOME rush hour trips with the M101 LTD to City Hall, the M103 at times can be very unreliable.

 

I guess thats my 2 cents for now.

[checkmatechamp13]

I don't think the (M9) extension would really help it. I think with the +SBS+ on the (M15), a lot of former (M9) passengers who are going to South Ferry would switch to the (M15), especially considering that the (M15) is more frequent and takes a more direct route.

 

As far as the (M98) goes, I said that it should at least run to 59th Street to connect with the (N)/(Q)/® trains, and the (Q32) to Queens, as well as the (Q60)/(Q101) at 2nd Avenue. Personally, I don't think it should've been cut back at all.

 

I think the (M98) would make a better candidate to run with the (M103) to City Hall (compared with the (M101)). That solves 2 problems with one bus route.

[Cait Sith]

I don't think the (M9) extension would really help it. I think with the +SBS+ on the (M15), a lot of former (M9) passengers who are going to South Ferry would switch to the (M15), especially considering that the (M15) is more frequent and takes a more direct route.

 

As far as the (M98) goes, I said that it should at least run to 59th Street to connect with the (N)/(Q)/® trains, and the (Q32) to Queens, as well as the (Q60)/(Q101) at 2nd Avenue. Personally, I don't think it should've been cut back at all.

 

I think the (M98) would make a better candidate to run with the (M103) to City Hall (compared with the (M101)). That solves 2 problems with one bus route.

 

To some extend I would agree with some of those points, but riders that used the M9 in the past largely got off at South Ferry, with a handful of passengers going to Battery Park City. A good majority of those passengers always utilized the Avenue B corridor, as the M9 would always be full till at least 8th or 10th street.

 

Lately, more people are using the M15 locals instead of the +Select Bus Service+, every bus that I've seen lately has been close to empty on the SBS while the locals are jam packed. Being a resident of the Lower East Side, I think that the M9 would be a good alternative to head down to South Ferry, as it does take people to where they want to go and such. And with the traffic issues burdening the M15 Local / +Select Bus Service+, the M9 would be a perfect alternative.

 

For the M98, the reason I suggested 42nd street is because the turnaround would be much more easier, the turnaround for the M98 at 59th would be a pretty tight run because that block gets a lot of traffic going onto the bridge. Turning at 57th would also not be good because depending on the peak runs, it would get caught in traffic while going back around. While I do agree with the transfer points and subway connections, I think that the M98 would have somewhat of a good transfer points at that spot and a much more easier turnaround back over to 3rd Avenue and vice-versa. Transfer points would be the Lexington Avenue , M42, M101/102/103. One way or another, you are still getting reasonable transfer points not too far apart from each other, as 1st, 2nd & Madison Avenues are not far off, as walking distance isnt that long at all. You can still transfer to the M1-2-3-4 Local & Limited, Q32, M50 and the M15 Local/+Select Bus Service within walking distance.

 

For the M98 to go to City Hall, I wouldnt see that happening because during the Rush Hour, those RTSs and Low Floor Hybrids would be crazy packed before reaching 23rd Street, the M103 carries a lot of passengers up to that point where they would transfer to the M101 or M102. The M103 alone picks up a lot of passengers from City Hall with mostly seats filled including passengers that used the M15 City Hall branch, so it gets more than it used to. To have the M98 down there, it would be close to capacity by the time it would reach 8th Street, its would pretty much be the big issue in the 90s brought back once again, when 40ft buses ran on the M101/102 were filled to the doors before they even reached 14th Street. Sending another articulated line down there would make much more sense.

[MHV9218]

Please, watch the Nazi Banksters Crimes Ripple Effect at http://jforjustice.co.uk/banksters

[Cait Sith]

Politically that's actually not a bad move, considering the enormous uproar from East Harlem residents [wrongly] directed at the MTA when 100th Street re-opened. While the mileage is nothing to send home about, it would look like a thoughtful move for 100th Street to start housing hybrids, and there would certainly be some improvement in terms of the average efficiency of the buses compared to the D60s. As you mentioned, it would of course make plenty of sense as well -- the principle of the M96 out of a depot that's right next to the start of the run would effectively eliminate any running dark that currently happens. But of course, as you said, it's completely unlikely 100th would get 40-footers, which is a shame.

 

I always thought that the move to 100th Street was a no-brainer, but unless they were to convert the M96 to an articulated line, I dont see it happening.

[checkmatechamp13]

I have an idea for the western portions of the (B13) and (Q24) that were discontinued (I doubt it would ever come to fruition, though). It would involve extending the (Q24) down Bushwick Avenue to the (B13)'s former terminal.

 

The routing would be as follows:

 

WB: Broadway-Eastern Parkway-Bushwick Avenue-Grand Street-Graham Avenue

EB: Metropolitan Avenue-Bushwick Avenue-Eastern Parkway-Broadway

 

I feel that buses should be eliminated if they duplicate other buses, but not subway lines. The reason being that buses are usually used for short trips, for which taking the subway is more trouble than it is worth. The nearest parallel bus line is the (B60) on Wilson Avenue, 1/2 a mile away. I figured that, in order to get people to ride the (Q24) on that portion, it should end somewhere useful.

 

Comments?

[B35 via Church]

Disagree... for a few reasons..

 

The MTA was right in cutting the Q24 to Broadway junction.... north/west of that point, virtually nobody took that route... and two, the route is already long & drawn out - and worse than that, it's quite common to see buses snailing/crawling along Atlantic av....

 

I don't think there's needs to be another bus route between broadway & wilson av.... that part of broadway with which the Q24 was discontinued from, is dead... having buses run one block north wouldn't accomplish much, if anything...

 

There were a fair amount of people that took the B13 b/w williamsburg & ridgewood before it was truncated... Ridgewood being the operative term/neighborhood... There's no other bus that does that now.... Whereas people are taking (from what I notice, in subtly increasing numbers) the 60 to the 20 to b'way junction...

{To be honest, now that you bring this idea up, it really didn't dawn on me as to why I see (more than 5 ppl... lol) waiting at broadway junction for the NB B20 - you almost never see anyone waiting across the street for a NB B20... anyone that frequents b'way junction far more than I do, will tell you this... all the "action" so to speak, is on the same side of the subway entrance, which all the other routes picks up people at...}

 

 

My point?

I have two of them:

 

1) What you're suggesting wouldn't facilitate as many riders as you'd think... people in that area would simply walk to the subway, or find their way to the B60, and xfer off that, to w/e other bus they need... Instead of what you're suggesting, more buses need to be put on the B60 - Bushwick riders have been getting screwed for years w/ the subpar, unreliable service on that route!

 

2) you would either have to find another route to want to extend up there, or think of creating a new one... b/c sending the Q24 to williamsburg is the worst choice (of any bus out of b'way junction) to want to extend up there, given what I've stated throughout this post...

[B35 via Church]

How about reviving the M6 south of Houston St only and basically forcing transfers to/from the M5?

 

lemme get this right...

you want to send the M5 back to its original terminal, and have M6's run from Houston street, to south ferry???

 

bro, the MTA got rid of the M6 that went from 59th street to south ferry...

what in the world would make you think running a route from houston st to south ferry would be plausible?

 

Cait Sith was brief in his response to your suggestion... I'm going to spell it out for you a little more...

 

Look, although Houston st is as pedestrian heavy as it is, people in that area aren't trying to get to points b/w it, and South Ferry.... the people you see along/around Houston st are SHOPPING, for the most part, around broadway... why do you think the train gets bombarded with riders b/w 14th st & whitehall? ridership on the old M6 in lower manhattan towards south ferry, and ridership on the current M5 to south ferry in lwr manhattan, isn't nothing to write home about....

 

something about the way you said "forcing transfers" doesn't sit well with me for some reason.... When the M6 was around, you seldom saw anyone x-fering from the M6 to the M5 (or vice versa); anywhere in lower manhattan anyway...

 

So where is all this stemming from...

Putting it another way... What triggered the thought process that prompted this suggestion..

I mean, is it the whole M5 being too long thing? wanting to revive the M6 in some fashion?

[Cait Sith]

lemme get this right...

you want to send the M5 back to its original terminal, and have M6's run from Houston street, to south ferry???

 

bro, the MTA got rid of the M6 that went from 59th street to south ferry...

what in the world would make you think running a route from houston st to south ferry would be plausible?

 

Cait Sith was brief in his response to your suggestion... I'm going to spell it out for you a little more...

 

Look, although Houston st is as pedestrian heavy as it is, people in that area aren't trying to get to points b/w it, and South Ferry.... the people you see along/around Houston st are SHOPPING, for the most part, around broadway... why do you think the train gets bombarded with riders b/w 14th st & whitehall? ridership on the old M6 in lower manhattan towards south ferry, and ridership on the current M5 to south ferry in lwr manhattan, isn't nothing to write home about....

 

something about the way you said "forcing transfers" doesn't sit well with me for some reason.... When the M6 was around, you seldom saw anyone x-fering from the M6 to the M5 (or vice versa); anywhere in lower manhattan anyway...

 

So where is all this stemming from...

Putting it another way... What triggered the thought process that prompted this suggestion..

I mean, is it the whole M5 being too long thing? wanting to revive the M6 in some fashion?

 

The one thing about the M5/M6 though...it didnt really attract any shoppers along broadway.....maybe a few. I only seen shoppers go into Bloomingdales, Best Buy, Old Navy and like 3 other stores. One of the prime pickup/dropoff stops for the M6 was Union Square. Broadway & Houston doesnt really attract bus riders all that much, mostly people calling for taxis.

[B35 via Church]

The one thing about the M5/M6 though...it didnt really attract any shoppers along broadway.....maybe a few. I only seen shoppers go into Bloomingdales, Best Buy, Old Navy and like 3 other stores. One of the prime pickup/dropoff stops for the M6 was Union Square. Broadway & Houston doesnt really attract bus riders all that much, mostly people calling for taxis.

 

Bingo !

 

that's exactly why I brought up the train.

[checkmatechamp13]

By the way, I found this website with some proposals for service in Brooklyn that are intended to create better routings for buses in Brooklyn. (For what it is worth, they were created by somebody who has worked for Operations Planning for a short period of time): http://brooklynbus.tripod.com/. He has a map of the system here: http://brooklynbus.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/proposed_system.gif)

 

You may notice a couple of routes that have been eliminated are on the map, as this was created prior to the service reductions.

 

I just have a couple of comments about the routes (NOTE: I'm using the numbers he used for his proposals):

 

-The B2 should be the route to go along 65th Street to Bay Ridge, not the B1.

 

-The B1 should run the same exact route as the B100 west of Flatbush Avenue.

 

-The B100 should be extended to the Ceasar's Bay Shopping Center, not the B2.

 

-The B22 could be replaced by an extended B5. I can't really see demand for service from Bay Ridge to JFK Airport.

[Kanarsie Guy]

That wont work at all...

 

As much as I would like the M6 to come back, the M5 is actually doing pretty good, it has some bunching issues but nonetheless, its still running quite well.

 

What I WOULD like to see is the following

 

100th Street Depot to house about 25-30 40ft buses and have the M96 and M106 to move over there (which wont ever happen, but it would make some sort of sense when it comes to deadheads). As an alternative to that plan, have those two routes move to 126th Street, then to have Michael J Quill take the M66 and M72, as then those routes would interline with the M57 and the M42. Have the M5 split with Michael J Quill with Quill buses interlining with the M20 or the M9.

 

Route wise, I'd like to see the M9 extended south to South Ferry or to Battery Park City instead of laying over at City Hall, ridership has dropped tremendously since the change, and to also decrease the headways from 15 minutes to at least 10-12 minutes. Have select M104s to be extended to Grand Central or 2nd Avenue, extend the M98 to 42nd Street, cutting it all the way to 68th made no sense, ridership was pretty big between 34th and 68th and SOME rush hour trips with the M101 LTD to City Hall, the M103 at times can be very unreliable.

 

I guess thats my 2 cents for now.

It Makes sense for OHS to House 40FT why not a swap with 126.

 

126- M15, M15SBS, M35, M101-103, M116

 

OHS- M31, M66, M72, M79, M86, M96, M106

 

126 Is More Flexible then OHS because All the Routes run on 125 Expect the M116. U can cut down run time on The Routes past 59th Street that have long deadhead From MJQ & MV.

[NovaBus 5121]

126 St doesn't have the room for the M101-103, the fact that those routes + the 86 require 111 artics (service+spares), there would be absolutely no room (there isn't any now)