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Iamthe1

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I actually didn't mean Albany to Clarkson. I was also thinking of Wingate HS. (my alma mater). I meant Kingston and Brooklyn to Winthrop to Albany to Clarkson. But that might not even be necessary either. That difficult right turn from NY into Winthrop, could be made at Rutland instead which would not be a problem since Rutland is one-way.

 

Your B11 also sounds good. The only question I have is where would the B44 local go coming from Sheepshead Bay?

 

Too bad I'm not the one who you would have to convince. I believe that after travel patterns change, it would be possible to reduce service on some of the other routes where some of the ridership would come from, so I don't believe the extra expense would really amount to much and that is without considering the extra revenue that would be generated from the increased service.

 

However, the MTA would estimate the additional cost in the millions, maybe 10 or 20. I don't know how much work you want to do, but to make them at all interested, you would have to show some service cuts by reducing headways somewhere and somehow cost them out. I don't agree with their notion that all changes must be cost neutral. That is ridiculous. If businesses operated that way, no company would ever open up a new store. They make an investment that they expect to recoup. It should be the same way with transit.

 

Incidentally, Wingate now has some school extra B12s that stop right in front of the school on Kingston AVenue.

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Wow, I'm impressed. The guy who wrote this article is an ex-bus director?Cool! He mentioned all the issues... the proposed route change, some ridership patterns, and even mentioned a few other bus ideas [like a B23 extension :cool:] It's just too bad not every article written about bus service has this much quality B)

 

Quite frankly, I'd prefer all B44 service remain on New York Ave even if a potential bus lane was only between Midwood St & Fulton St. The reroute will benefit riders heading West of Nostrand Ave, although the number of people on New York Ave losing out makes the move definitely not worth it [iMHO]

Admittely, without a bus lane/bus bulbs, it'd be hard to cram in fare machines at some stops [for example, New York Avenue & Avenue D, where the sidewalk is a little thin]

 

I'd keep most of the current bus routes as is:

B11: Maybe, Maybe extend East to relieve pressure on the B6, but I think a better solution is to tweak the B6 and B103 a little.

B12: re-extended Eastward

B16: I'd keep it largely the same [just switching it with the B1 in Bay Ridge, and have it follow a new route to its terminal... but that's for another thread]

B23: extended to VA Hospital or Bay Ridge and Kings County Hosp.

B44: Do I even have to say it?

B48: re-extended to Prospect Park

B69: I'd rather extend it to the heart of Downtown Brooklyn than Williamsburg. Either way it'd be following the B62, but I think more riders might benefit from service Downtown.

 

I can't believe they're serious about this change. :( I might move to Rogers Ave B)

 

P.S. Thumbs up if you like my location :tup:

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Wow, I'm impressed. The guy who wrote this article is an ex-bus director?Cool! He mentioned all the issues... the proposed route change, some ridership patterns, and even mentioned a few other bus ideas [like a B23 extension :cool:] It's just too bad not every article written about bus service has this much quality B)

 

 

 

Thanks for the compliment. I was the one who wrote that article.

 

I also have a letter in this weeks's Courier-Life papers (Bay News, Kings Courier, etc) available throughout Brooklyn making other points about the B44 SBS. Too bad it's not online. It will be on sale through next Wednesday and some libraries also have it. You can also get it for free at many places around the borough. There should be copies as you enter Borough Hall. If I get a chance, I'll scan it and put it on line.

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Will the B44 Select stop at Rogers Avenue & Avenue D (northbound) and Nostrand Avenue & Newkirk Avenue (southbound)? The map from the DOT says we're not stopping there anymore but the listing I checked on Wikipedia a while back says that we are stopping there. It seems like a pretty bad idea not to stop there given the high ridership of the B8. Neither do I get how they got rid of Myrtle, Gates, Avenue L, and Avenue R but I guess you have the alternate B38 on DeKalb/Lafayette which kinda does the same thing as the B54 on Myrtle. Avenue L seems alright since most people could use either the B6 from the southwest or the B41 from the southeast as opposed to the B9. From the southeast it's a good point since the B9 ad B41 do the same thing from Kings Plaza up to Avenue L. Avenue R, well the B2 and B31 don't seem that heavy but still I feel that more stops should have been saved. At least Gates and Myrtle seem like they should have been top priority, in that order. Then L then R. It sorta seems like we could do without R but getting rid of L seems weird to me. People coming from the southwest that want to go very far north have a problem without an unlimited card. I'm guessing their argument is that not many people have that travel pattern, but then again they will do anything within or beyond reason to cut costs as we know.

 

People complained about the B44 Select idea, but it's quite a heavy line and it's the longest line in Brooklyn so I don't see a problem with it being Select. Besides, it spends a lot of time on one-way streets. The one thing I think should be corrected is the stops that they want to cut out.

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The concept is: two separate B44 routes. The B44 local & Limited to run as usual on regular route & B44 SBS which will utilize Articulated buses (accordion) to run down Rogers Avenue. The idea came forth after some exhaustive impact studies that determined that an articualted bus will not be able to make the turn northbound from Farragut Road (right turn then left turn onto New York Ave)

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Wannabe MTA: It's official, the B44 will get SBS by late next year. It'll use the same LFSAs as the Bx12 and M15.

 

Rob: Wait, I thought they were canning the B44 Limited. I know the original plan was for the B44 SBS to be an extra layer of service, but I heard that due to several factors including the recession and a desire to cut costs they will actually replace the Limited with the Select. I think that was the original plan for the Bx12 and M15 as well. Although maybe they figure they can't really get away with that for the B44 since the "express" would be taken off New York Avenue completely. But based on what I heard they are going to do that anyway and leave New York Avenue with local service only. Not one of their better ideas, but it seems like that's how they're doing things.

 

Also they couldn't put SBS on New York Avenue because it's only one lane in both directions up until East New York Avenue/Lincoln Road.

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Wannabe MTA: It's official, the B44 will get SBS by late next year. It'll use the same LFSAs as the Bx12 and M15.

 

Rob: Wait, I thought they were canning the B44 Limited. I know the original plan was for the B44 SBS to be an extra layer of service, but I heard that due to several factors including the recession and a desire to cut costs they will actually replace the Limited with the Select. I think that was the original plan for the Bx12 and M15 as well. Although maybe they figure they can't really get away with that for the B44 since the "express" would be taken off New York Avenue completely. But based on what I heard they are going to do that anyway and leave New York Avenue with local service only. Not one of their better ideas, but it seems like that's how they're doing things.

 

Also they couldn't put SBS on New York Avenue because it's only one lane in both directions up until East New York Avenue/Lincoln Road.

 

I heard the exact same thing. The SBS is to replace the limited, and most likely run out of Grand Av.

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Grand? The run-on/off between Washington Plaza and Grand Avenue depot is roughly 0.1-0.2 mile shorter than the run-on/off between Knapp Street/Emmons Avenue and Flatbush depot, but the actual time it takes to run on/off is probably less on the southern end than on the northern end because the areas on the southern end are less dense and buses are less vulnerable to traffic back there. Especially with that BQE in the north. The south has a highway, the Belt Parkway, but it's not as heavily used as the BQE. Lots and lots of fuel would be wasted if they moved the B44 to Grand. Plus it would take a lot of revenue out of Flatbush, and to even things up they at least have to give back the B47 to Flatbush, which does not generate nearly as much revenue as the B44. Then they gotta find something else to give to Flatbush in addition to the B47 to make up for the loss of the B44. If I had things my way I would have both the B44 and the B47 in Flatbush since that's the most efficient way to go but I digress. Also later in the day when people want to go home from their jobs in Manhattan, you're better off having a bus getting ready to run off by picking up people from the subways and dropping them off in the residential areas. This is how the B44 works going southbound. Just like the mornings where everybody starts at Knapp Street after pulling out of Flatbush, and the peak travel direction is from subway-less residential areas up to the subways and more commercial areas.

 

It's not the same travel pattern for everybody, but that's the general trend.

 

If they put that bus in Grand, they will be very sorry. But if they do, we ain't the ones running things so better them than us.

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Back in the old days, that stretch of Nostrand Ave. was a two way and then they made it a one way. Not sure why.

 

IIRC on a Sunday morning in '63 Nostrand and Rogers avenues as well as a slew of many other streets became one way . This caused major re-routing of many bus lines in Brooklyn at the time. I believe the the newspapers called it "the Barnes Dance", after the traffic czar who came up with the plan. I remember the near misses that day as motorists made turns into what were formerly two way streets. I also remember cars parked in spots on Bedford Avenue in Flatbush that were legal on Saturday night but bus stops the next morning. No, they weren't ticketed or towed but imagine the frustration of people who used to be able to park in front of their homes losing that spot. The idea behind the change was to speed up traffic so traffic lights became somewhat synchronized for long stretches of streets like Nostrand, Rogers and Bedford in parts of Flatbush, Crown Heights, Bed-Stuy, and Williamsburgh.As I recall the B44, B47, B48, and B49 routes were changed that day.

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B44 service now is certainly spotty and while the SBS idea isn't bad, running northbound buses on Rogers Av makes this a bad idea in my opinion. You're basically splitting the route in two as mentioned in other posts and residents do have legitimate issues regarding parking. We'll see how the B49 fares on Rogers Av if this plan sticks.

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B44 service now is certainly spotty and while the SBS idea isn't bad, running northbound buses on Rogers Av makes this a bad idea in my opinion. You're basically splitting the route in two as mentioned in other posts and residents do have legitimate issues regarding parking. We'll see how the B49 fares on Rogers Av if this plan sticks.

 

It looks like the B49 is being set up to run from Sheepshead Bay to Flatbush Ave only. The B44 SBS will cover the B49's route from Flatbush Ave to Fulton St on it's way northbound. S/b Bedford Ave is only 2 blocks from Nostrand Ave from Bergen St to Flatbush Ave.

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It looks like the B49 is being set up to run from Sheepshead Bay to Flatbush Ave only. The B44 SBS will cover the B49's route from Flatbush Ave to Fulton St on it's way northbound. S/b Bedford Ave is only 2 blocks from Nostrand Ave from Bergen St to Flatbush Ave.

 

So then that would mean no local service on Rogers Ave north of Flatbush Avenue if I understand correctly, assuming that the B44 would continue to run doing SBS stops...

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Would you agree or disagree with this Op-Ed opinion that B44 SBS is a poor idea, will not work on Nostrand Avenue, and is a sham? :confused:

 

Op-Ed: http://www.sheepsheadbites.com/2010/11/op-ed-select-bus-service-on-nostrand-is-a-sham/

 

I disagree completely. I've seen this before. People are annoyed about it because they don't want to give up their cars. The B44 is one of the longest if not the longest line in Brooklyn (B6? B82?), it's even longer than the Bx12 and the M15 which are already Select, the 3rd heaviest line in Brooklyn and the 5th heaviest line in the system. The line is bunched up all day with the traffic on Lee Avenue and around Glenwood Road. During rush hours it gets worse and more widespread along the route. Given the length of the route and its ridership it should be improved from its current state. The B46 could use SBS too but the streets it uses would not accommodate SBS. The B6 has a lot of narrow streets and a million turns. The B82 has some narrow streets and it's not as heavy as the B44. The original plan for the Nostrand Avenue subway was to go all the way to Voorhies Avenue. This isn't exactly it, but it's close.

 

When it comes to Rogers Avenue, I do agree that there should have been something on New York Avenue to make up for the loss of the Limited. It would've helped if the TA had extended some lines rather than cut them, like the B23. Then the lines pick up more people so they have a reason to keep them and they avoid hurting the people that depend on them. But New York is narrow south of Lincoln Road/East New York Avenue, so it's better to put it on Rogers where there's more room. Plus there would've been issues with the left from New York Avenue onto Fulton Street, where to put the B44 SBS stop, negotiating with the B25, traffic on Fulton Street, lights, turns, etc. Putting it on Rogers kills several turns. But again that being said there still should have been something on New York to compensate.

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Back in the old days, that stretch of Nostrand Ave. was a two way and then they made it a one way. Not sure why.

 

They made Nostrand and Rogers both one-way so they could have synchronized traffic lights. If people don't double park, it saves you 15 minutes on a long trip if you drive. Since buses stop to pick up and discharge passengers, they don't gain as much as the cars do.

 

The elimination of two traffic lanes, one on each street, will return driving times to the way they were before they started the synchronized lights.

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It looks like the B49 is being set up to run from Sheepshead Bay to Flatbush Ave only. The B44 SBS will cover the B49's route from Flatbush Ave to Fulton St on it's way northbound. S/b Bedford Ave is only 2 blocks from Nostrand Ave from Bergen St to Flatbush Ave.

 

I really don't see the MTA cutting back on the B49 only to Flatbush although this can't be ruled out since they are in a time of reducing service while fares rise. A reroute to Bedford Av going northbound to Fulton St would have to be the alternative and simply put, Rogers Av is the better route.

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I really don't see the MTA cutting back on the B49 only to Flatbush although this can't be ruled out since they are in a time of reducing service while fares rise. A reroute to Bedford Av going northbound to Fulton St would have to be the alternative and simply put, Rogers Av is the better route.

 

I can see them cutting some trips to Flatbush when school is closed, but this won't be possible when Kingsborough is in session.

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I disagree completely. I've seen this before. People are annoyed about it because they don't want to give up their cars. The B44 is one of the longest if not the longest line in Brooklyn (B6? B82?), it's even longer than the Bx12 and the M15 which are already Select, the 3rd heaviest line in Brooklyn and the 5th heaviest line in the system. The line is bunched up all day with the traffic on Lee Avenue and around Glenwood Road. During rush hours it gets worse and more widespread along the route. Given the length of the route and its ridership it should be improved from its current state. The B46 could use SBS too but the streets it uses would not accommodate SBS. The B6 has a lot of narrow streets and a million turns. The B82 has some narrow streets and it's not as heavy as the B44. The original plan for the Nostrand Avenue subway was to go all the way to Voorhies Avenue. This isn't exactly it, but it's close.

 

When it comes to Rogers Avenue, I do agree that there should have been something on New York Avenue to make up for the loss of the Limited. It would've helped if the TA had extended some lines rather than cut them, like the B23. Then the lines pick up more people so they have a reason to keep them and they avoid hurting the people that depend on them. But New York is narrow south of Lincoln Road/East New York Avenue, so it's better to put it on Rogers where there's more room. Plus there would've been issues with the left from New York Avenue onto Fulton Street, where to put the B44 SBS stop, negotiating with the B25, traffic on Fulton Street, lights, turns, etc. Putting it on Rogers kills several turns. But again that being said there still should have been something on New York to compensate.

 

People don't want to give up their cars because the SBS is only an alternative if your entire trip begins and ends in the Nostrand Avenue corridor. Survey car owners using Nostrand Avenue and I bet you will find virtually none of their trips both beginning and ending there. That means for them to switch to a bus they still would have to use at least one more slow local bus and a car will still be more convenient.

 

The SBS will also wreak havoc with non-bus traffic due to sacrificing a traffic lane for a bus lane when there will be a bus on it only every five minutes most of the time. The original plan from 2005 called for using a parking lane for the bus lane which made more sense. Nostrand and Rogers are the streets most cars use because they are the only streets with two traffic lanes in the same direction. Now every North-South Street with the possible exception of Flatbush Avenue will have only one north-south lane. Did you ever try to drive between Empire Blvd and Eastern Parkway during the morning rush hour? It takes about 15 minutes. Now it will take even longer.

 

The worst part of the plan is that no one rides from Sheepshead Bay to Williamsburg to take advantage of the 20 minute time savings. The average passenger will save only 6 minutes and I'm not sure if that even accounts for the extra walking they will have to do to access the SBS stops. When that is considered, there may not be any time savings at all.

 

If they just implemented priority signals for buses, and enforced existing laws against double parking, they could achieve the same benefits without all this expense and confusion that will result.

 

A B46 SBS between Eastern Parkway and Kings Plaza or a modified B82 SBS along Avenue P either to Gateway, or even Aqueduct Racino and JFK would be better idea because the average trip length would be longer and there would be greater time savings.

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It is now official. The MTA plans to begin the B44 SBS with next July's system pick!

 

Dumb question: Do you mean July of 2011 or July of 2012?

 

Will the B44 Select stop at Rogers Avenue & Avenue D (northbound) and Nostrand Avenue & Newkirk Avenue (southbound)? The map from the DOT says we're not stopping there anymore but the listing I checked on Wikipedia a while back says that we are stopping there. It seems like a pretty bad idea not to stop there given the high ridership of the B8.

 

We are definitely stopping at Ave D/Newkirk Ave. On page 10 of this powerpoint, Ave D/Newkirk is shown among the list of stops. Also, at the Open House back in October or November (yes, I actually forgot which month it was) the poster given out showed the new stop on the updated map. The problem is that the DOT's main B44 BRT page uses the original route map that doesn't have Ave D/Newkirk listed as a stop. They simply haven't gotten around to updating it.

 

Also, I don't see why the MTA would cut the B49. I know they're trying to save money, but still. Also, it'd be stupid. After all, the best way to justify the creation of a bus lane is to cut service that could potentially use it, don't ya know :P

 

@BrooklynBus:

 

I know the bus lane will eat up a driving lane, but if it's any consolation, during Rush Hours one of the two parking lanes will be used as a driving lane. So, the only time there will truly be only one driving lane will be during middays. And the bus lanes are only in effect Weekdays from 7 AM - 7 PM anyway.

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