Bus Operation Restrictions

[Trainmaster5]

As a M/M in school car many years ago we had a discussion about subways operating across county lines, Queens to Nassau, Bronx to Westchester, etc.At that time it was established that it was NYCTA as the operator, although it was under the umbrella of the , and it wasn't allowed. In fact the NYCTA was in the process of cutting most of it's rail connections with the national rail network so we wouldn't be under strict federal oversight like the railroads are. Nowadays we have LIB, NYCT and bus crossing county lines. I bring this up because somewhere on these forums I saw a thread about running NJT buses into Staten Island. Interstate as opposed to intrastate. Is this being done already? Can the or NJT run buses to NJ from Staten Island or use NJ roadways to go from Staten Island to Manhattan via the Holland tunnel? If it can be done wouldn't it be under federal oversight like Greyhound is ? Just wondering.

[ML111]

In terms of what you are asking, it involves the aspect of where the operation (NJT, NYCT, etc.) conducts passenger operations (as in loading and unloading of passengers and soliciting fares).

 

NYCT is able to operate via the NJ Turnpike on services from Staten Island to Manhattan because of the nature of the route. The purpose of the service is for transportation between those two locales within the state of NY. They do not conduct any interstate commerce inthe State of New Jersey, they are merely "passing through". This is the reason why they do not need a US DOT number, which is needed when conducting business between multiple states.

 

This was the original argument petitioned aganist the MTA with the operation of the S89 service between SI and Bayonne, NJ. The plaintiff, Joel Azumah of Transport-Azumah, who operated the former Coach USA 144 line between SI and Jersey City claimed the MTA was operating the service illegally because they did not have a US DOT number. They were conducting business in two states (the northern terminus was the 34th Street HBLR Station). The MTA quickly plastered a US DOT number to circumvent that challenge.

 

As far as NJT is concerned, because so much of their commuter line program is focused on interstate service between New Jersey, Manhattan and Pennsylvania, the whole fleet is covered under their own US DOT number. Therefore, they could conceivably operate a service from NJ into SI. However, they will not because it 1. would cost too much money for direct operation vs. return, 2. would not fit a contract service package and 3. the rights to a service from SI-NWK Airport (the most logical service with the most demand) is optioned out from the Port Authority and not NJT.

[sealteam1962]

 

As a M/M in school car many years ago we had a discussion about subways operating across county lines, Queens to Nassau, Bronx to Westchester, etc.At that time it was established that it was NYCTA as the operator, although it was under the umbrella of the , and it wasn't allowed. In fact the NYCTA was in the process of cutting most of it's rail connections with the national rail network so we wouldn't be under strict federal oversight like the railroads are. Nowadays we have LIB, NYCT and bus crossing county lines. I bring this up because somewhere on these forums I saw a thread about running NJT buses into Staten Island. Interstate as opposed to intrastate. Is this being done already? Can the or NJT run buses to NJ from Staten Island or use NJ roadways to go from Staten Island to Manhattan via the Holland tunnel? If it can be done wouldn't it be under federal oversight like Greyhound is ? Just wondering.

yes it would because you are going from one state to another and any bus that does must have a valid dot card no exceptions .

[KNIGHTRIDER3:16]

(T)hose X17's ,I wonder if they deviate in NJ to get around better?

Queens to LI no probs but this is A great Question :cool:

[Trainmaster5]

In terms of what you are asking, it involves the aspect of where the operation (NJT, NYCT, etc.) conducts passenger operations (as in loading and unloading of passengers and soliciting fares).

 

NYCT is able to operate via the NJ Turnpike on services from Staten Island to Manhattan because of the nature of the route. The purpose of the service is for transportation between those two locales within the state of NY. They do not conduct any interstate commerce inthe State of New Jersey, they are merely "passing through". This is the reason why they do not need a US DOT number, which is needed when conducting business between multiple states.

 

This was the original argument petitioned aganist the MTA with the operation of the S89 service between SI and Bayonne, NJ. The plaintiff, Joel Azumah of Transport-Azumah, who operated the former Coach USA 144 line between SI and Jersey City claimed the MTA was operating the service illegally because they did not have a US DOT number. They were conducting business in two states (the northern terminus was the 34th Street HBLR Station). The MTA quickly plastered a US DOT number to circumvent that challenge.

 

As far as NJT is concerned, because so much of their commuter line program is focused on interstate service between New Jersey, Manhattan and Pennsylvania, the whole fleet is covered under their own US DOT number. Therefore, they could conceivably operate a service from NJ into SI. However, they will not because it 1. would cost too much money for direct operation vs. return, 2. would not fit a contract service package and 3. the rights to a service from SI-NWK Airport (the most logical service with the most demand) is optioned out from the Port Authority and not NJT.

 

I understand your point,although the post following yours seems to disagree with you. The PANYNJ could run service from SI to EWR if it was profitable and leave the and (NJT) out of the mix or even EWR-LGA, with their own US DOT if they saw a profit in it ,(sorry Coach). Is that correct?

[ML111]

Here's the difference, and it's a very important one at that:

 

NYCT does have a US DOT number, however if you look at the registration assigned to the number, it is for intrastate service. The information I am referring to is in this link:

 

http://www.safersys.org/query.asp?searchtype=ANY&query_type=queryCarrierSnapshot&query_param=USDOT&original_query_param=NAME&query_string=306482&original_query_string=NEW YORK CITY TRANSIT

 

From my understanding, for a service to be governed under the same intercity rules and regs as Greyhound, the service has to cross state lines in commerce doing business with another state. In that event, it will need another DOT number for that authority or amend that number to include interstate service.

 

In the case of the S89 service, it gets a bit fuzzier, so I won't go into the legal details of it.

 

The Port Authority is no longer in that type of business, where they would self-contract itself to run that kind of service. In their RFB process, they would screen companies that would have that authority, they would just be the owner of the contract (which would effectively be a non-compete).

 

It is the same system used for the Manhattan-LGA/JFK services operated by NYAS - thus why the MTA or any other operation cannot go in and compete - only NYAS has the authority under the PA to operate such a service.

[Locomotion69]

yes it would because you are going from one state to another and any bus that does must have a valid dot card no exceptions .

 

Not if it's a municipal vehicle which I don't think MTA buses are. For example DSNY trucks sometimes dump in NJ and they(drivers) don't need to have a dot card to do so.

 

For the record we(those on the 8006 B/O list) don't need

the DOT Medical Card to drive NYCT buses right?

[metsfan]

S89 is what came of people wanting HBLR access to staten island, but since there is no funding to take it past west 8th street, the S89 goes between staten island, and 34th street HBLR, where that line used to terminate.

 

If it (S89) gets cut back to, or makes another stop at west 8th before heading over the bridge, i have no idea, but it's been like that since just after the HBLR opened.

 

With roads getting increasingly unable to properly handle automobile volume, they may end up doing several things, both on the NY-NJ part and the NJ-PA part, linking services in new ways to get a few more cars off the road. What that may look like, i also have no idea, we are in uncharted waters both fiscally and politically in this country, and a lot of the mass transportation stuff we need is being dumped in favor of road widening & highway stuff. It's pretty pathetic actually.

 

Sigh.

 

Anyways, MNRR is under a state charter that covers the now defunct conrail commuter rail service in the northeast, however its west of hudson lines, which had new york central rights of way via the acquisition of the west shore railroad, also have operating rights. To simplify things, NYS owns and operates the stations & related parking lots etc, (NJT) owns the tracks via an agreement made in 1983, since the only real access is via hoboken. That's the :pvl:, the other line to port jervis was the erie railroad's main line, it is largely owned by NS well into new jersey, (NJT) has operating rights here and provides with a way to get people living in NY to get to the city.

 

That's the railroads, which by law need all kinds of agreements and trackage rights and so on, and can get very convoluted and confusing.

 

The bus part of (NJT) is separate from the rail part in its legal and financial structure, and can make any number of agreements with without affecting (NJT) or rail operations. As someone who works in albany for the said, it's basically a funding umbrella for separate entities. Metro north is a perfect example of this, it has a specific spelled out charter that covers the former conrail commuter operations on the hudson, harlem, and new haven lines to the CT state border. From the border amtrak has ownership, and in fact this (nyc) is where the electrification used to end, the overhead lines are new, amtrak used to rent space from (MTA)/MNRR to operate out of GCT.

 

Any bus routes that go between states can be contracted by the state's operators, leaving and (NJT) owned vehicles in their respective states. They can also make exemptions, but it needs to be passed in state assembly on both sides.

 

One last thing... There really isn't much of a need for bus service to be very between-states in new york and hudson counties, you either take (NJT), PATH or amtrak to get to and from parts of NJ and the city, there are also a few bus routes that do PABT. The rest are private lines/contracted operations.

 

- A

[Dan05979]

Not if it's a municipal vehicle which I don't think MTA buses are. For example DSNY trucks sometimes dump in NJ and they(drivers) don't need to have a dot card to do so.

 

For the record we(those on the 8006 B/O list) don't need

the DOT Medical Card to drive NYCT buses right?

 

You need a dot card if you have a cdl. they won't pull you over if your driving a city vehicle but of you get into an accident they sometimes ask for it.

[Locomotion69]

You need a dot card if you have a cdl. they won't pull you over if your driving a city vehicle but of you get into an accident they sometimes ask for it.

 

Right, I am sure that is part of the accident investigation

process. When I first got my CDL I went to my doctor so

I can get the DOT card, the physical exam took about 15 minutes tops. Later on I found out that I didn't need it either for DSNY or the MTA. So my CDL B has an A3 restriction. I have no interest in driving coach buses interstate.

[Noflexdont]

This is what you guys are talking about. Like stated before municipals don't need this. http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations/topics/medical/aboutdotexam.htm

[Dan05979]

This is what you guys are talking about. Like stated before municipals don't need this. http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations/topics/medical/aboutdotexam.htm

 

Thats info for the driver's medical d.o.t card

 

And I've never seen a city owned vehicle (bus truck ect.) with a USDOT number.

[Noflexdont]

Thats info for the driver's medical d.o.t card.

 

Correct, If you want that A3 off your CDL you need that filled out. The D.O.T medical exam is not needed for municipals.