ARC fiasco begins to unfold...

[metsfan]

New Jersey Governor Chris Christie called his cancellation of the Trans-Hudson ARC tunnel project a "dollars and sense issue," as New Jersey couldn't afford the cost of $2.7 billion plus any overruns for the project. But now that he's cancelled it, the Federal Transit Administration is asking for the state to refund the cash they put in. In a letter written to NJ Transit head James Weinstein, the FTA says, “NJT must immediately repay all the Federal financial assistance expended for ARC under the [work agreement] which is currently estimated to be $271.091 million, plus reasonable interest and penalty charges that will be determined by FTA." Who wants to bet on when NJ Transit raises their fares?

 

The original work agreement stated that New Jersey would be responsible for $2.7 billion and any overruns for the $8.7 billion project. The Port Authority of New York and New Jersey would pay $3 billion, and the FTA would pay $3 billion from their "New Starts" program, but was entitled to a refund if the project were cancelled. NJ Transit spokesman Paul Wykoff and Christie spokesman Michael Drewniak said they did not know where they would find the funds to pay off the FTA.

 

Assemblyman John Wisniewski criticized Christie for leaving the state with a massive debt. “The governor famously throughout this has said he is not going to spend money the state doesn’t have. I wonder where he is going to get this money. We’re approaching $700 million," he said, referring to the $400 million lost when the state messed up their Race to the Top application. Meanwhile, Amtrak continues to talk about whether "the work already accomplished on the tunnel project could be incorporated into" Amtrak plans for a new trans-Hudson tunnel. But Drewniak said in a statement, "To repeat yet again, the ARC Tunnel project is over."

 

http://gothamist.com/2010/09/07/tall_buildings_are_attractive_for_s.php

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I have some choice words for Governor Lardass McGee. :mad::tdown::mad::tdown::mad: My poor girlfriend all ready has to shell out way more for her bus pass than she did at the beginning of the year, now what will happen? :confused::mad::tdown:

 

Guy is making it f***ing impossible for NJT to operate the way it needs to, first cutting state subsidy, now this? :mad::tdown::mad::tdown:

 

- A

[Forest Glen]

I'm sick of lard @ss Christie, Palin, Paladino, and those other Tea Party Looney Tunes.

[Nova RTS 9147]

So much for being a fiscal conservative.....

[metsfan]

So much for being a fiscal conservative.....

 

The guy has no idea what he's doing, and if he does he should be kicked out of office for turning NJ's finances into a circus.

 

- A

[Tokkemon]

So putting the state into Billions of debt is better than mere millions?

[N-Trizzy2609]

So putting the state into Billions of debt is better than mere millions?

 

Either way, were in debt. Not for nothing you're so quick to answer I see a SEPTA logo in your user name, do you live Jersey? Cuz if you did, you'd see the impact this tunnel has on us. You're not the one getting congestion texts on his phone from NJ Transit.

[Tokkemon]

Back when I lived in Rockland I had to take the Pascac valley every morning. So yeah, I know what I'm talking about. I was never delayed BTW.

 

Also, on the occasional days I have to take the NEC to get to NY from Philly, I also have never been delayed.

 

Unlike on SEPTA, delays on NJT, LIRR, and Metro-North are relatively rare.

[nycbusfan]

IMO, Christie is better off putting the state in millions of dollars of debt than over a billion. If times were better than I'm all for this project but in these times we just don't have the money to spend. If we keep spending the debt may have to be paid off in higher taxes down the road.

[N-Trizzy2609]

Unlike on SEPTA, delays on NJT, LIRR, and Metro-North are relatively rare.

 

Ill looking at my phone's inbox right now. I have exactly 5 messages from yesterday and 8 messages the day before from NJ alone about delays in the tunnel and equipment failure.

 

Quoted from my texts just yesterday:

Wed, Nov 10th 4:48PM

"Trains in and out of Penn Station-NY are now subject to 15-25 minutes delays due to congestion."

Tues, Nov 9th 3:56

"Trains in and out of Penn Station-NY are subject to 30-60 minutes delay due to switching problems @ Secaucus."

[Tokkemon]

Awesome. So out of several hundred trains, only a dozen or so were affected. That's a pretty good record compared to SEPTA. Almost every single train on SEPTA is behind schedule. In fact, I can't remember the last time I rode one that WAS to the schedule.

[metsfan]

Back when I lived in Rockland I had to take the Pascac valley every morning. So yeah, I know what I'm talking about. I was never delayed BTW.

 

Also, on the occasional days I have to take the NEC to get to NY from Philly, I also have never been delayed.

 

Unlike on SEPTA, delays on NJT, LIRR, and Metro-North are relatively rare.

 

Your trip on the PVL went into hoboken, not new york, totally unrelated, and hoboken has extra capacity for service. As for your hand full of trips from philly, wow, so a few trains were not late. What's your point?

 

IMO, Christie is better off putting the state in millions of dollars of debt than over a billion. If times were better than I'm all for this project but in these times we just don't have the money to spend. If we keep spending the debt may have to be paid off in higher taxes down the road.

 

The problem is that the billion dollars in debt would have been after.. AFTER the tunnels were complete and trains running through them.

 

Awesome. So out of several hundred trains, only a dozen or so were affected. That's a pretty good record compared to SEPTA. Almost every single train on SEPTA is behind schedule. In fact, I can't remember the last time I rode one that WAS to the schedule.

 

A dozen trains = 6000+ people & then down the line things get delayed and crews miss their slots and things get messy.

 

As for several hundred, yea maybe several hundred run on the entire system, but only about 25 trains run into new york, and 25 out, averaging 2.08 per hour over the day. Nearly a quarter of those trains are during the 3 hour inbound AM and 3 hour outbound PM peak travel periods each.

 

So your "only a dozen trains" is the entire peak period, which affects the most people, and has the added bonus of pissing the most amount of people off, which isn't good for business.

 

Dude, i've ridden on days when most trains were canceled due to weather, and that one day when they lost signals between jersey ave and morristown, days when it was so crowded they put out 3 extras each way.

 

If everyone that has the practical option all the sudden decided to hop the train, we'd be in a lot of trouble, because the capacity isn't there.

 

Someone on railroad.net (a NJTR engineer) brought up an interesting tidbit, these service constraints only really started after midtown direct service began. Maybe re-route those trains back to hoboken till a tunnel is completed. Would free up tons of slots.

 

- A

[Shortline Bus]

Someone on railroad.net (a NJTR engineer) brought up an interesting tidbit, these service constraints only really started after midtown direct service began. Maybe re-route those trains back to hoboken till a tunnel is completed. Would free up tons of slots.

 

- A

 

 

Metsfan without the Midtown Direct riders along the I-80 coordior would be in a parking lot 7 days a week. Right now I-80 is busy even on weekends. Plus a few drive from all the way in the Poconos to get the Midtown Direct to get to NYC.

 

Maybe make every other off peak train to/from Dover go to Hoboken especially we now have the Seacus station. Still you do need the Midtown Direct service to NY-Penn Station.:eek:

[Tokkemon]

Your trip on the PVL went into hoboken, not new york, totally unrelated, and hoboken has extra capacity for service. As for your hand full of trips from philly, wow, so a few trains were not late. What's your point?

 

*cough* Perhaps I wasn't clear. I transfered at Secaucus to get to NY. Again, getting into Penn had hardly any late trains.

 

The problem is that the billion dollars in debt would have been after.. AFTER the tunnels were complete and trains running through them.

 

And we *still* wouldn't be able to pay it then.

 

A dozen trains = 6000+ people & then down the line things get delayed and crews miss their slots and things get messy.

 

As for several hundred, yea maybe several hundred run on the entire system, but only about 25 trains run into new york, and 25 out, averaging 2.08 per hour over the day. Nearly a quarter of those trains are during the 3 hour inbound AM and 3 hour outbound PM peak travel periods each.

 

So your "only a dozen trains" is the entire peak period, which affects the most people, and has the added bonus of pissing the most amount of people off, which isn't good for business.

 

It's certainly not 25 trains a day. Just the :nec: line alone has that many, and that's only one out of four lines that go into Midtown. PLUS, all the Amtrak trains going along the most traveled piece of rail in the country. The capacity is WAY more than you're saying. A dozen trains over the whole system (note that, the whole system, not just the ones going into Penn) is not that much in the grand scheme.

 

Dude, i've ridden on days when most trains were canceled due to weather, and that one day when they lost signals between jersey ave and morristown, days when it was so crowded they put out 3 extras each way.

 

You can't blame NJT for the weather. It's not their fault their entire system isn't underground (lol).

 

If everyone that has the practical option all the sudden decided to hop the train, we'd be in a lot of trouble, because the capacity isn't there.

 

But luckily for us, they take the bus, which, despite its lack of speed, some days feels like the more attractive option.

 

Someone on railroad.net (a NJTR engineer) brought up an interesting tidbit, these service constraints only really started after midtown direct service began. Maybe re-route those trains back to hoboken till a tunnel is completed. Would free up tons of slots.

 

 

That wouldn't fix the problem. People want to get directly into Midtown because that's where the jobs are, usually in those massive skyscrapers. Offloading all that stuff to PATH will be annoying because a) PATH is slower than directly, requirement to pay *another* fare on top of the train fare.

[nycbusfan]

The problem is that the billion dollars in debt would have been after.. AFTER the tunnels were complete and trains running through them.

Regardless of wheather or not the tunnels will be built I don't think we are in the position to spend.

[Nexis4Jersey]

Alot of Railway groups blasted NJT , the current plans for the Tunnels weren't needed. NJT should have cancelled this project back in the early 2000s.....they passed up a few alternates and the Tunnel Project was sucking funding for other projects statewide. It should have been designed better.... We should spend the $$$ on enhancing our Dense Suburban / Urban Network and connecting our cities. If we built the Light Rail network and connected it into Paterson and Newark and extended the PATH into Elizabeth that would reduce the usage strain on the Tunnels by eating away at the Rail ridership.

[metsfan]

Newark to Elizabeth would not affect people going to and from new Brunswick, Hamilton, and Princeton junction, which is where the majority of the nec passengers board/alight.

 

- A

[metsfan]

*cough* Perhaps I wasn't clear. I transfered at Secaucus to get to NY. Again, getting into Penn had hardly any late trains.

 

Yes, bypassing 95% of the NEC line.

 

It's certainly not 25 trains a day. Just the :nec: line alone has that many, and that's only one out of four lines that go into Midtown. PLUS, all the Amtrak trains going along the most traveled piece of rail in the country. The capacity is WAY more than you're saying. A dozen trains over the whole system (note that, the whole system, not just the ones going into Penn) is not that much in the grand scheme.

 

The NEC is what i was talking about. Those trains have never officially terminated at anywhere else but new york penn. Coast line service used to be largely out of hoboken using diesel locos. The wires didn't even go out to long branch till 1988

 

 

You can't blame NJT for the weather. It's not their fault their entire system isn't underground (lol).

 

Not sure what your point is. My point was that i've likely ridden more times than you, including days when the ish hit the fan.

 

 

 

But luckily for us, they take the bus, which, despite its lack of speed, some days feels like the more attractive option.

 

I'm not talking about people who ride transit or private line busses, i'm talking about people who drive.

 

That wouldn't fix the problem. People want to get directly into Midtown because that's where the jobs are, usually in those massive skyscrapers. Offloading all that stuff to PATH will be annoying because a) PATH is slower than directly, B) requirement to pay *another* fare on top of the train fare.

 

It would fix the problem, hoboken used to be a terminal for trains all through new york, nj over to buffalo, binghamton, rochester, chicago, it has the capacity to handle all of the midtown direct traffic, if they lose a one seat ride oh well, its their governor who they elected that made decisions about NJT that did it, maybe they will vote differently next time. As for PATH, the hob-33 line could run with shorter headways if they slowed the trains down a few miles per hour. Right now they operate at track speed and require a distance to keep them from piling up or occupying the same block.

 

Diverting a few coast line electric trains to hoboken would also free up slots, but only in and out of ny penn, not on the trunk between union and karny.

 

I think a compromise of halving MtD service during peak hours taking those other ones to and from hoboken, and taking every 3rd train to long branch or matawan or amboy and bringing them to/from hoboken is a good idea. Maybe PATH can allow some kind of discounted pass for people taking the rerouted trains from hoboken to be sold by NJT.

 

- A

[Tokkemon]

The NEC is what i was talking about. Those trains have never officially terminated at anywhere else but new york penn. Coast line service used to be largely out of hoboken using diesel locos. The wires didn't even go out to long branch till 1988

 

And that was 22 years ago. Why the heck is that relevant now?

 

It would fix the problem, hoboken used to be a terminal for trains all through new york, nj over to buffalo, binghamton, rochester, chicago, it has the capacity to handle all of the midtown direct traffic, if they lose a one seat ride oh well, its their governor who they elected that made decisions about NJT that did it, maybe they will vote differently next time. As for PATH, the hob-33 line could run with shorter headways if they slowed the trains down a few miles per hour. Right now they operate at track speed and require a distance to keep them from piling up or occupying the same block.

 

Diverting a few coast line electric trains to hoboken would also free up slots, but only in and out of ny penn, not on the trunk between union and karny.

 

I think a compromise of halving MtD service during peak hours taking those other ones to and from hoboken, and taking every 3rd train to long branch or matawan or amboy and bringing them to/from hoboken is a good idea. Maybe PATH can allow some kind of discounted pass for people taking the rerouted trains from hoboken to be sold by NJT.

 

See, here's what you're not getting. People want to get *into* Manhattan. The whole point of taking the train to NY is to get *into* Manhattan, not to go 90% of the way and transfer at Hoboken. Back in the day, that was making all the Main/Bergen/Pascak Vly Lines riders mad because they had to go to Hoboken instead of New York. That was the whole point of building Secaucus Junction. People are paying good money to get into Manhattan as their final destination. You add the PATH into it you increase the commute time by at least a 1/2 hour. People will just take the bus instead because it goes directly into the island.

[Shortline Bus]

Not sure if this is true but according to the NY Post, Christie's wife had a huge role in canning the project. Here story link.

 

 

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/christie_wife_didn_dig_tunnel_752QpWHgJO31xanRlGSAeO

[metsfan]

Dude, it does not take a half hour to get to 33rd or wtc from hoboken. More like 13 minutes hob-33rd, and 10 for hob-wtc.

 

The longest travel time is newark to 33rd via jsq.

 

- A

[N-Trizzy2609]

Not sure if this is true but according to the NY Post, Christie's wife had a huge role in canning the project. Here story link.

 

 

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/christie_wife_didn_dig_tunnel_752QpWHgJO31xanRlGSAeO

 

Sooo, he basically listened to his wife? Can anyone see whose really running Jersey? That what I call a backwards marriage, the women points the man follows. No one has a pimp hand anymore.

[Tokkemon]

Dude, it does not take a half hour to get to 33rd or wtc from hoboken. More like 13 minutes hob-33rd, and 10 for hob-wtc.

 

The longest travel time is newark to 33rd via jsq.

 

- A

 

Lol, I'm including the transfer time and the time it would take to walk back to Penn (if applicable) to get to one's job near there (or the extra subway time it would take to get to other places).

[Tokkemon]

Not sure if this is true but according to the NY Post, Christie's wife had a huge role in canning the project. Here story link.

 

 

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/christie_wife_didn_dig_tunnel_752QpWHgJO31xanRlGSAeO

 

*cough* I stopped reading once it said that the terminal was going to be under Herald Sq. For those who were actually informed about the project, it was intended to be within the old Farley Post Office across 8th Ave from MSG and the current Penn Station. If *that* is what Christie's wife based on canceling it, I'm sorry, but she's an idiot. Macy's would never allow a new train station under their land, and, to complicate matters, a large Subway station is right there too. There's no way to fit an entire new station there. Perhaps some common sense could be afforded to the First Lady.

[Shortline Bus]

*cough* I stopped reading once it said that the terminal was going to be under Herald Sq. For those who were actually informed about the project, it was intended to be within the old Farley Post Office across 8th Ave from MSG and the current Penn Station. If *that* is what Christie's wife based on canceling it, I'm sorry, but she's an idiot. Macy's would never allow a new train station under their land, and, to complicate matters, a large Subway station is right there too. There's no way to fit an entire new station there. Perhaps some common sense could be afforded to the First Lady.

 

 

 

The Tea Party at best in the Northeast US. :eek:

[metsfan]

The ARC is not related to the attempt to turn the old post office into a train station head house.

 

The very tippy east end of the ARC terminal, where you come up to street level on that last entranceway, would be herald square it would not be "under". The station proper would primarily be under 34th street with entranceways flush to the facades here and there, with connections to the current penn station.

 

Macy's was actually looking forward to this, as it would bring a lot more business.

 

- A