Experts say plans to extend 7 line subway to New Jersey are a dead end, feds won't fund it

[T to Dyre Avenue]

I'm just going to come out and say it.

 

The sheer stupidity of this idea knocks me hard on the floor.

 

Here's why:

 

You can't do a tunnel, too expensive for fantasyland extension of one limited capacity line.

 

You can't make a bridge, the line is too deep.

 

There is no where to run the line in NJ.

 

Metrocards for service do not work in NJ. Try to buy a monthly metrocard at a PATH station, i'll bet you won't find the option. Pay per ride, sure, but passes won't.

 

There is no demand at all for such a service that A. cannot be provided by PATH or direct trains from NYP. B. new tunnels such as in the ARC plan.

 

And, who is going to pay for this? Not NJ that's for sure.

 

As for NJ not deserving the subway, uh dude, have you ever even been to NJ? Don't get me wrong, i love NYC, but the subway is more showing of its age than every other transportation system in the country. It's falling apart. Maybe with some proper funding it could get the attention it needs, but please, don't say such stupid things. NYC has neglected its railroads, NJ has not. Doubt me? Try riding any 30 miles on LIRR or NJTR then get back to me.

 

- A

Then PATH should provide such a service. But it would have to terminate in a different place from the current Midtown PATH line, as any new PATH trains to Midtown would completely overwhelm the existing 33rd Street terminal. Where it would terminate in Manhattan is a good question. At least with a extension, they won't have to build a new terminal in Midtown for the line to terminate. It can just continue east into Queens as it does now. NJT can't provide any more service than it already does into Penn Station in the existing tunnels and ARC is not an option now.

 

So what's the solution if the extension is a "stupid" idea? Is it PATH? More NJT buses? Personally, I'd prefer a new PATH extension because PA is already legally authorized to run in NJ and NYC. If they can just find a suitable place to terminate it.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

Well I guess the New York City Subway and the has gone from realism to fantasy map drawing. They don't focus on the places where New York still needs subway service like Eastern Queens, Eastern Bronx, Cemetery Way in Queens, Utica Avenue, the southern section of Nostrand Avenue, a 34th Street Crosstown Line, a LaGuardia Airport extension, Eastern Manhattan (Second Avenue Subway), Western Manhattan (10-12th Avenue), a far Western Bronx (Riverdale) extension, Staten Island, and Dyker Heights. Instead we are spending a chunk of our money for the people that don't even live in New York State.

 

Perhaps that 34th Street Crosstown Line could be the routing for the new trans-Hudson PATH service that I suggested in my previous post. I do agree that the should be concentrating on extending the subway into parts of the city that don't have it now.

[Trainmaster5]

It's great to see these responses, pro and con,'cause that's what I was looking for. Ideas for discussion. I do have a problem with those who don't seem to realize that PATH has no say-so in the matter directly. It's parent , the PANY&NJ itself, has the power needed, through the respective states, along with the U.S. government to make or break the project at any step. Just envision the projects merits or faults because as far as I can see only the aforementioned authorities and jurisdictions have a say in the matter. Well them and the bondholders.

[Roadcruiser1]

Though what would happen if the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey gave this project the green light. The only way I see this happening is if PATH/Port Authority of New York and New Jersey profits from this too.

[Pablo M 201]

Though what would happen if the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey gave this project the green light. The only way I see this happening is if PATH/Port Authority of New York and New Jersey profits from this too.

It all depends where the line ends up. PATH has a high volume of ridership from every station in NJ so a extension into NJ won't put much of a dent into PATH's ridership numbers cause guess what, folks might still need to hop on a PATH train to get to the , or maybe some other mode such as NJT Bus or HBLR to get to wherever the ends up.

 

Like I said, this whole extension to NJ is just idea, King Bloomberg and others trying to take advantage of the situation of the ARC Tunnels being canceled and wanting to provide an "alternative".

 

It can be taken more seriously if talks continue and some actual plans with good estimates of costs come out.

 

This isn't the first time that the idea of a extension to New Jersey has been mentioned.....

[Rell]

all i can think of right now is how many more trains they would have to run to keep from an 1/2 hour delay.

That and the aforementioned matter that certain areas ( especially Eastern Queens, The edges of Manhattan, and the northwest bronx ) in NY need to be taken care of before we focus on NJ.

all in all, the idea may work, but remember the revolutionary SAS from around 80 years ago, which is still nowhere near ready in the 2000's.

[Roadcruiser1]

"This is a Journal Square bound local train. The next stop is 10th Avenue". "Stand clear of the closing doors please"

 

I know I am just kidding around, but someday this might really happen.

[mark1447]

Theres more important things to deal with then this... PATH is what you got for the city of NY to NJ.. Extend the PATH instead of the for any other part of NJ to NY..

 

PATH is not going to be fully affected unless the were to head to Newark.. NJT may get hit due to higher prices from to NYP.. It ill sound similar to taking the MNR to Fordham for the nearby, which is cheaper. Or LIRR to Woodside for

[lilbluefoxie]

yea, this is a bad idea, let them extend PATH to meet the 7 line rather.

 

Ooh theres an idea, let em build a path extension to the port authority bus terminal.

[TwoTimer]

That means I could go to NJ, but folks might not like it because it look like making longest trips.

I still going to use either PATH or trains.

Us crews no need fear, there's going to be no 5 trippers to 34th lol. It's going to turn into the , 3 with a few 4's scattered about. Jersey would make everything 3.

[Alargule]

Sound like a plan. But, as someone else already suggested, why not use the PATH tubes that are already there to connect the to? Additional stations along the west side of Manhattan could be built in the process.

[Roadcruiser1]

Last I remember PATH is a railroad. The subway and the railroad can't share tracks together, because the FRA and the FEA both annouced that a subway isn't a railroad. So a extension can't run along with PATH. It needs it's own right of way and tunnel. Also again if I was a builder or an extender of the NYC Subway System, New Jersey would be the last on my list.

[SmallParkShuttle]

This is an interesting idea to be brought up. I do agree that NYC should be the primary focus of new service, but I think this idea has a merit that no one really addressed: the reverse commuter.

 

Since 9/11, many businesses moved out of the CBD, but not far from it, like Jersey City and Hoboken, as some examples. This created a growing need for transportation options leaving the city in the mornings and returning in the evenings. This is why the S89 came to life.

 

A subway extension into NJ would create an attractive option for NYers working in NJ, provide direct East Side Access to a part of NJ, and could grow the areas impacted by a project like this. Also, the real cost of these projects come from the amount of construction in the city, which for this idea is relatively minimal. Anywhere that has direct access to the NYC Subway system is attractive, even if it's the other side of the Hudson.

[Alargule]

Last I remember PATH is a railroad.

 

Semantics. Last I remember, the subway uses rails to get trains from point A to point B, too.

 

The subway and the railroad can't share tracks together, because the FRA and the FEA both annouced that a subway isn't a railroad.

 

Semantics. The only thing that should matter here is whether it's technically possible to connect the PATH tubes to the subway tracks.

 

We had no problems back here in Holland with connecting a former railroad to the Rotterdam subway system. I can't imagine why such connections would be impossible across the pond.

[Princelex]

Well I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that I support the idea of the going to NJ. I don't understand all of the politics that would be involved in making or not making this a reality but I like the idea of being able to go from the east side on Manhattan to NJ without having to leave the subway to do it. People also are forgetting that PATH cost less than the subway where pay per ride is concerned so I don't think that PATH will lose that much ridership but I could be wrong. I'm all about having as many options in getting around as possible and if this is something that can happen, then I'm all for it. It would finally make that project of the going to Javits not look so silly.

 

In the end, its all an idea so for all we know, it might be D.O.A. by the end of the year. If it doesn't go to the , then it should go to the 2nd Ave project. One thing's for sure, this has gotten really, really interesting.

[Roadcruiser1]

A extension of the line to New Jersey would never be done in my lifetime. I am in full support of this because it would help people even though we should be focusing on New York right now. Second Avenue is the best example of tunneling and even then it's moving at a snails pace. It would take either 2-3 phases to complete such a project.

 

This website has a poll I and a majority of the people voted that this would never get done on our lifetime.

http://online.wsj.com/community/groups/news---greater-new-york-898/topics/no-7-subway-extension-new

 

Also these are news articles

http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article/20101117/REAL_ESTATE/101119871

http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news/local&id=7793480

http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2010/11/17/to-replace-the-arc-tunnel-a-subway-extension-to-new-jersey/

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2010/11/17/nyc-subway-line-may-continue-into-n-j/

http://www.dnainfo.com/20101117/manhattan/city-consideris-plan-extend-7-train-new-jersey

 

Images

From the Transport Politic

 

A repost of the map from the first page. For the people that didn't see it.

 

Also this came in from Jay Walder this morning:

In a press conference this morning, MTA Chairman Jay Walder discussed the potential 7 Train extension to New Jersey. He argued that the agency needs to focus on the system’s existing mega-projects, including the Second Avenue Subway, East Side Access, and the current (shorter) 7 Train extension. The MTA, he noted, has no funds for this project. Any funding for this project would have to come from another source.

 

I mentioned the exact same thing. We don't have any more money, and we have 2-6 projects going on including Second Avenue. The can't afford another one. If the is to be extended to New Jersey we would need money and equipment from the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, New York, New Jersey, and the US Government.

[TwoTimer]

TA could just finish building the current configuration to 11th Av, then sell the entire line to PATH and save money (personnel, equipment, etc), and let PA build the Jersey extension and have it function as a PATH line.

 

Let TA take its 62A's over to fill shortages elsewhere in the IRT , the lines that do not share equipment, and PATH can bring in their own equipment and everyone's happy. The line as it is only has one switch just north of Queens to the BMT and runs by itself otherwise. All other lines in the system have multiple ways to get to other trunks. Transfers to other IRT/BMT/IND lines with the exception of Queensboro all go thru lengthy corridors or staircases, so an additional fare payment area is easy to place and implement.

[Roadcruiser1]

Again PATH is a railroad company people. The government says that subways don't count as a railroad. Also the won't sell the Flushing Line. It's one of the more sucessful NYC Subway Lines. You sell it and hell well break loose. I thought up of a better idea. Why doesn't the make a four track tunnel and line. 2 tracks would be railroad tracks and 2 tracks would be subway tracks. The would use 2 tracks and PATH would use the other two and branch off the line just before it reaches 34th Street and serve Penn Station.

[TwoTimer]

As far as physical track, railroad and subways are the same.

[Roadcruiser1]

They are but I doubt the would sell the Flushing Line which is one of their most profitable lines.

[Pablo M 201]

TA could just finish building the current configuration to 11th Av, then sell the entire line to PATH and save money (personnel, equipment, etc), and let PA build the Jersey extension and have it function as a PATH line.

 

Let TA take its 62A's over to fill shortages elsewhere in the IRT , the lines that do not share equipment, and PATH can bring in their own equipment and everyone's happy. The line as it is only has one switch just north of Queens to the BMT and runs by itself otherwise. All other lines in the system have multiple ways to get to other trunks. Transfers to other IRT/BMT/IND lines with the exception of Queensboro all go thru lengthy corridors or staircases, so an additional fare payment area is easy to place and implement.

LOL! Best idea I've heard yet.

 

Maybe the MTA can learn a few things about running a subway line more effiently.

 

[SubwayGuy]

I didn't post the link ,(didn't know how), but the gist of the article is that the states of New York and New Jersey as well as the PANY&NJ would have to study the feasability of such a proposal and such. Obviously I'm aware of the limitations of the NYCT and the MTA as far as the legalities go but the implications of the PANY&NJ make this somewhat murkier. The PA does have powers that neither the MTA nor NJT have as far as regional transport goes. After I read the article I got the impression that this was a "trial balloon" for real estate and transportation types to make the West Side properties worth more. You've even got Bloomberg, both governor's offices, and Senator Schumer weighing in on the project. Federal dollars can make little legalities go "poof" in a heartbeat. I have no horse in this race. I'm newly retired from NYCT and I just wanted to see what the forum members thought. Remember we're still waiting for phase 1 of the SAS to be completed so I'm not talking about a "shovel ready" project but a study.

 

Congratulations on retirement...you've earned it.

 

My thoughts on this are that extending any line requires proper planning. There's this idea among some circles of the railfan community and politicians that just believe if you extend a line and put one stop in an underserved area, you've provided a good service. Just like the people who believe that extending the 1 to Staten Island is enough (by itself) to basically "replace" the ferry.

 

Dumping the 7 in jersey with just one stop isn't going to solve anything. The line will be very crowded, and turning trains will not be easy. All of these operational considerations must be looked at before spending $5 billion dollars that neither we the taxpayers nor any level of government have at the current time. In addition, there is also the aforementioned issues of PATH, how it affects the PANYNJ, and how oversight works between the two states.

 

Who knows? Maybe Phase 3 of the SAS will be up and running before ground is broken for this one. Just my 2c.

[Pelham Bay Dave]

I would love it if the 7 was extended to NJ. I would only hope I could pick something on the NJ Side. That make my commute 1 Hour via NJT N/E Line.

[IRTFlushing7]

This is a New Jersey Bound Local Train. The next stop is Willets Point-Mets.

 

This is a Queens bound Local Train. The next stop is Jersey Avenue.

 

Hell of a long trip.

[Roadcruiser1]

Not really it's only going to gain like 3 or 4 miles not enough to effect the that badly. It's the new people that would spill into the that would get me worried. Besides they should focus on extending it 5 miles into Eastern Queens while they are at it. They are unserved and it's in the original Flushing Line proposal too.