Unbuilt Stuff

[Bus Guy]

Hey guys, I've been doing some research on unbuilt lines, connections and what not and I cant seem to find a complete list so i was wondering if yall could put one together. Thanks

[NX Express]

IND Second System.

http://www.google.com/cse?cx=007460888643256869042:xiz_pzdrmii&q=ind+second+system&sa=Search&cof=FORID:1&siteurl=www.nycsubway.org/

[Roadcruiser1]

Most of those lines which were possible in that map on the year 1929 is now almost impossible due to Robert Moses.

[MainStreetBound7]

Damn, I really wish that, that 7 extension went through. It would have been cool.

[Brighton Local]

The Staten Island-Subway connection would've been and still would be extremely vital!

[Grand Concourse]

To Brooklyn, perhaps, but hopefully you don't mean the direct route to Manhattan cuz that's just too much for just one borough.

[metsfan]

I wonder if there are any maps showing where the LIRR whitestone branch & flushing line intersected, there was a station there before the whitestone branch was abandoned, not too long after the world's fair came knocking & they built the current willets point station and tore down the old one farther to the east.

 

- A

[bigrene18]

Why sure. I have a list right here:

 

Roosevelt Avenue Terminal and trackways:

The only IND Second System station that was actually finished is the

Roosevelt Avenue terminal (on the upper level of the IND Queens Blvd

Station in Queens), it has trackways but no tracks. There is a

trackway just east of the Roosevelt Avenue Station that diverges away

from the D1 track (Manhattan-bound local track).The trackway ramps up

to the same level as the 2 trackways coming from the never-used

Roosevelt Avenue Terminal, making 3 trackways on the upper level. The

ramp flies over the mainline tracks along with the two other

trackways. There is a diverging bellmouth next to the D2 track

(Jamaica-bound local track) several hundred feet north of the station,

just at the location where the 3 upstairs trackways are crossing

over. I think only the city-bound trackway from the Roosevelt Avenue

terminal station meets the main line; the other turnout, on the

eastbound side, ends in a concrete wall shortly after the start of the

turnout. When Roosevelt Avenue was the terminal from 1933 to 1936, the ramp leading to the upper level probably had track on it at one time.

From looking from the side window of an train, it looks there isn't

even any ballast on the ramp IIRC. That converted signal is actually

in the path of the ramp, it would have to be moved if the ramp were to

ever go in service. There is no tape on the model board either. If

there was anything there, it was painted over. You have to look up at

it in just the right way with certain lighting to see faint

indentations of where the Winfield spur was to have turned off from D1

and D2. It would have been something if the line was built, 2 towers

at Roosevelt. It is a terminal station with two trackways and an island

platform, fully tiled, with blank signs in place on the island

platform. The tunnel continues for quite some distance above the

tracks that serve the lower station, until the point where they would

no longer be on top of each other; you can see the trains on the lower

tracks from the tunnel. At the time I was there it was largely used

for storage of non-critical items (it was absolutely filthy with steel

dust). Part of the station has been converted to equipment rooms and

(at one time) was used as a police substation; I'm not sure what it is

used for now (I was there in '96 or '97). AFAIK it is one of only two

never-used stations (the other being Nevins Street lower level) to

have been tiled - the other never-used station shells are in the

rough. (Of course, there are a number of formerly-used stations that

are fully tiled.) The Winfield Connection platform of Roosevelt Avenue is hardly controversial as to its existence. The home signal is still out in the

field. Take a good look at the "automatic" signal north of the ramp on

D1 track. It has a blanked-out bottom head. On the Roosevelt Avenue interlocking machine in the station tower, there are spare levers for the necessary signals and switches and if you look carefully, you can see where the tracks were once displayed on the model board but have been painted out. On the ramp leading to the Southbound local track, from the unused upper level, there is a homeball signal, "D1-1415" which has the lower portion lenses covered over and now functions as an automatic signal. It was possible to look out the back of a Manhattan-bound local from a

RFW to see the ramp (sans tracks). All four Roosevelt trackways end in a concrete wall where they begin to diverge from the excavation for the existing line.

 

South of the Canal Street station on the A, C, & E:

A bellmouths was built south of Canal Street on the IND 8th Avenue

local southbound track (trains headed towards World Trade Center) and

was supposed to be where the trains would come off the 8th avenue

trunk and turn onto Worth Street and East Broadway. On the wall there

was a arrow painted with the words "Worth St." on it. Is this where

the Worth Street tunnel was going to be.

 

 

2nd Avenue station on the F:

Space was reserved for the 2nd Avenue line at 2nd Avenue on the IND

6th Avenue Line / look above at that end and there is a higher

ceiling. The 2nd Avenue station wasn't built as an express station.

The tracks end shortly past the false wall that is there (I believe

one train length/535 ft). The two tracks extend about 535 feet from

the end of the platform to the end of the track and tunnel, just shy

of one train length. There is nothing more beyond that point, though

it was intended to become an under-river tube to Brooklyn, under the

2nd Phase of the IND, was supposed to lead to what was supposed to

have been the South 4th Street Station. When the service started

running there, the false wall was move a little back into the tunnel

to give the trains a little more than just 600 ft to berth in the

station. Near the ending of the tail tracks, the tracks begin to

separate and end at bumper blocks. At the end of the tracks at the

bumper blocks, there is a provision of a center track which only

extends about 15 feet and it stops at the bulkhead at the end of the

tunnel. I think the skells took over the area so it was blocked off so

that they would stop living there. When trains were laid up there they

were 8 car B trains so the layups did not really have to stick out

into the station. When the K service stopped running in 1976, 4 B

trains laid up at 2 Av midday 2 in the station and 2 between the

station and the bumping blocks.

 

 

2nd Avenue Subway Connections:

The IND 63rd Street line, east of Lexington Avenue/63rd Street, the

bellmouth for the 2nd Ave Subway connection are clearly visible.

Now when it mears to the left it does not go in that much. I would say

it goes at most 25'. No tracks have been laid as of yet. Also where

the bellmouth ends there is just 2 bars there to hang on which is on

the floor. Thats about it. I personally would of though it was in much

deeper where you can't see nothing but black.

 

 

At Lexington Avenue/63rd Street on the F line, behind the platform

walls on each level is a second track intended for future connection

to the proposed Second Ave Subway. East of this station, the planned

track connections to the 2nd Avenue Subway curves slightly north and

ends with a bumper. After the tracks ends, the roadbed goes on for a

few hundred feet and the the smooth cement wall floor and ceiling come

to a stop.

 

 

Bellmouths east of 63rd Drive/Rego Park:

There is a turn-off provision off the D1 Track (Mahattan-bound local)

east of 63 Drive/Rego Park station, which would have gone down to the

Rockaways via the former LIRR line. This turnoff ramps up to

an upper level. It crosses over the existing IND Queens Blvd Subway to

curve south, and ends at the edge of the line under Queens Blvd. Well, I've ridden on the eastbound R line between Roosevelt Avenue and

71st-Continental many times and have seen the turnouts at from the

railfan window (when the line ran R-32s). I can't recall the exact

area, but I know that at least one of the turnouts is very short and

comes to a wall perhaps 40ft away from the main line (I believe its

the one next to the D2 Track), and, interestingly, even has an

emergency exit that was built into the wall that curves away from the

main line. The other one goes a little longer. I've read somewhere

that one of the tunnels continues as far as 66th Avenue. As I said, it

does go a little longer than the other one. These were obviously

turnouts intended for lines to be built later, which of course, never

were. That emergency exit where the tunnel first turns off. I heard someone said that in the mid 1950's at this exit, there was a big blue & white sign stating: "Motormen Beware, Dead End." I asked a signal maintainer who had started with the orignal IND about this & several other pockets around the system. At the 63rd Drive station the structure at the end of the Jamaica/Forest Hills bound end was to be a tower. It is unknown if any equipment was ever installed. This structure supposed to be the tower for the proposed Rockaway Line connection east of the 63rd Drive Station.

 

 

The tracks east of 179th Street:

East of 179th Street on the IND Queens Blvd Line, the small layup yard

on both levels east of the 179th Street Station, which was planned for

an extension of the F train to Springfield Blvd or Little Neck Pkwy.

The upper level track east of this station was to be extended eastward

while the lower level tracks was always intended to be relay tracks.

The tracks on the upper level is longer than the lower level tracks

and the upper level tracks has a wooden partition at the bumper

blocks. The tracks for the upper level were put in sometime in the

late 1950's.

 

 

South of 59th Street (4th Avenue Line):

South of 59th Street/4th Avenue (next to the local tracks), there are

bellmouths for a proposed line to Staten Island. Well, they're not

really bellmouths, but the tunnel does not narrow south of 59th St.,

thereby leaving two trackways- one on either side of the 4 active

tracks. Looking South on the S/B platforms, the MoW building that you

see 100 feet into the tunnel is sitting in one of the trackways. The

view from the N/B platform is unobstructed, albeit much darker. The

trackways run for about 150 feet. The one on the N/B side ends in a

brick wall, with evidence of some sort of space beyond. Even further

South, the bridge over the Bay Ridge cut has four trackways, with the

2 active tracks of the 'R' line occupying the two westernmost ones (by

this point, the Fourth Av line swings over to the Western half of 4th

Av).

 

 

South Fourth Street provisional platforms:

Above the Broadway station on the G there is a unused station shell

that was supposed to be called, "South 4th Street". This was part of

the IND Second system, where 2 lines coming from Mahanttan was

supposed to merge into. If your in the last car of the southbound G line at Broadway station..you can "see" the darkened transfer tunnel that looks like a very wide passageway that would have taken you to the upper levels

where the 6 track South 4th st station is located..there is also a

closed off door located in the station where the walkway is. The

station wall there looks like it was an after thought...with a steel

linked door blocking entry on the left. NOTE: South 4th St. isn't a complete, full-length station. It's only as long, roughly, as the G-line station below, Broadway, is wide. If you have access, once you're let through a locked gate at the end of one of the platforms of the G's Broadway stop, is up the crude

"ramps" that were never turned into finished stairways. They're steep,

and slippery with dust. The station is a semi-complete shell, all

platforms and trackbeds in place, but no rail, no tile, no stairs.

I've got down on the trackways and walked to one end or the other to

see where they deadended at blank walls, waiting for a connection that

never came (I've got permission from an MTA Employee). I was at the Broadway station in fall of 2008 and saw what looked like an opening in the ceiling above the N/B platform near the northern end - looked like a ventilation shaft of some sort. Perhaps it had do something with the S 4th St station above.....

 

 

*Bedford–Nostrand Avenues Middle Track:

The "express" track at Bedford-Nostrand on the G was meant to be a

separate line, not an express track, like it seems to be. After

Bedford-Nostrand going Queens-bound there was supposed to have been a

line continuing down Lafayette Street, and Bedford-Nostrand was

supposed to have been the transfer point. The extension along

Lafayette Avenue would have turned a bit at Stanhope Street and joined

the Myrtle Ave-Central Ave Line (Central Ave in Glendale, not

Brooklyn's Central Ave) to form a four-track line. Classon Avenue was

to have had a turning track. All this was to be built as part of the

IND Second System, which would have made the subway map look much

different than it does today.

 

 

*Utica Avenue station shell:

At the Utica Avenue station on the A and C lines, in the center of the

station, the ceiling slopes down compared to the rest of the station.

Above are unused platforms intended for use of the propsosed Utica

Avenue Line as part of the IND Second System. There were blocked

stairways up from platform level to the unused station shell, but

possible evidence is present at ceiling level. It appears that there

are four trackways and two island platforms running diagonally across

the ceiling in the center of the station. There are some locked doors

which could serve as access to the unfinished platforms. The station

shell sits unused yet relatively clean and well-lit. Before the

renovation of this station in 1995, it was possible to see the station

shell from the mezzanine. Past the main booth, there was a long ramp

that goes down to a landing from which stairways lead to the 2 active

platforms. There was a fence there. Past the fence, there was a tiled

wall with a door. The door had a few of slots missing. A look into the

door revealed the unused station platform, with the trackways. After

the renovation of this station, the door which was the access to the

unused platforms, was no longer there. The only access to the unused

platforms would be from the locked doors in the mezzanine.

 

 

*Nevins Street Trackways:

South of Hoyt Street on the IRT Brooklyn line there is a

trackway splits from the southbound local track, and starts heading

to an lower level. At the curve in the subway from under Fulton Street to Flatbush Avenue, the trackway curves under the southbound local track, and is joined by another bellmouth heading north for a proposed Manhattan

Bridge connection. These trackways leads to the built-but never used Nevins Street platform. After the lower Nevins Street platform, a trackway

splits to the east for a subway under Lafayette Avenue, this was later

built for the IND Crosstown 70(GG)/(G) line. On the other side, it rises again to merge with the southbound local track. Between this merge and Atlantic Avenue is another bellmouth, splitting from the local track towards a

subway under Fourth Avenue, later bulit for the BRT/BMT. Running the other

way (Manhattan-bound), provisions were made for both the same connections in the wall alongside the main level Manhattan-bound local track.

 

 

At Bowery on the BMT Nassau Street Line, in one part of the station

has a high ceiling which was built for a proposed subway to pass

through it. There is also an "Future Doorway" at this station where an

opening could be made to the never-built subway station, if it had

side platforms.

 

 

At southbound Chambers Street on the J/Z, If you walk alongside the

express track to the south end of the platform, you will see that

cavernous empty space. If you look up at approximately a 45 degree

angle, in the distance you'll see a single yellow bulb hanging from a

ceiling, over what appears to be a darkened elevated walkway or

trackway that crosses over the entire width of the station. Its too

far away from me to discern exactly what it is, but its clear that

there is a walkway there, with what appears to be a concrete side wall

that is approximately 5 feet high. This was for the proposed

Brooklyn Bridge connection. It may have been, though from where the cliff leaves off to the J-M-Z below, it would hae been quite a steep grade to climb (I'm a bad estimator of height, but it had to be a 50 to 100ft. drop off). My guess was that perhaps the brooklyn bridge el tracks had an 'underground' terminal, like that of the tracks which went over the 59th street bridge.

In any case, here's a few more details of this odd tunnel: an old steel set of steps connected it to the 'wine cellar' - under those steps I noticed (and have a photo of, actually) an odd message written on the wall that stated 'commit no nuisence here' . (it wasn't written in graffiti style letters, and there was no graffiti in this tunnel). Towards one end was what seemed like a loading dock - with another set of steps up to it. by climbing the steps and ducking down along a truely low ceiling (3, perhaps 4 feet at some spots), you'd reach the cliff overlooking the J-M-Z stop. Short of the 'loading dock', 2 tunnels meet - one comes in on a curve, and the other (which has the steps in from the wine cellar) is straight. In the dirt where there 2 tunnels met, you could clearly see some type of rail switch track. The truely puzzling part is that perhaps 10, 20 feet from this switch, the track runs directly into the 'loading dock' (!), pointing in the direction of the cliff and J-M-Z station.

 

 

At the lower level of Canal Street of the BMT Broadway line (Manhattan

Bridge line) west of the station, tunnel stubs point to a planned line. This was supposed to be a "Canal Street Line" that ran from the Manhattan Bridge to a loop near the Hudson river. Plans were changed when it was decided that the Manhattan Bridge - Canal St route would be connected to the BRT/BMT Broadway Subway instead. The pockets for the Canal St subway exist.

On a northbound (N)/(Q) stopped at the Canal Street, it is possible to see a few feet of tunnel straight ahead, past the turning point to Broadway. There is a lot of equipment in this area now including a storage bricked building on one of the trackways, but if you look carefully enough you will still see it.

 

North of 57th Street on the BMT Broadway Subway Line two trackways turns west from the local tracks, and curve slightly towards the west before

ending. This was a plan for a line that would serve the Upper West

Side. When the BRT/BMT was building the Broadway line as part of the Dual Contracts, the company also wanted to be awarded the Central Park West/8th Avenue route, which was on the planning boards at that time. The company figured that if they built ramps from the Broadway line that could naturally be extended to an 8th Avenue line, they would get a toehold on being awarded that line, rather than lose out to the IRT, the only other subway operator when the Dual Contracts were built. The BMT/BRT never built that line for various reasons including the bankruptcy of the company after Malbone Street and Hylan's plan to include the 8th Avenue/CPW route in the IND system. The ramps were built but never used for revenue service. If you look carefully, there are actual track on those trackways (covered by many years of dirt--they are like two parrallel bumps). I've walked over the dirt covered stretch. If it's not track someone did a good job of making it look that way. The old tunnel went about 300 ft or so, not sure. There are Power and Signal rooms back there.

 

Classon Avenue Trackway:

The middle trackway at the Classon Avenue station on the G appears to

have been set aside for a relay or a lay up track. If you look at the

south end of the south bound at Classon, there is a room there that

looks like it was to become a tower. It looks like other towers of the

IND. Large door and several windows. This was also at the north end of

the northbound platform at the 63 Drive station for that proposed

Rockaway connection. It has since been changed for other uses and

doesn't resemble a tower room anymore. I believe that had they built

that line that feeds into the G Line at Bedford/Nostrand that it would have

been a terminal at certain times of the day. There are some rooms

north of the station's northbound platform that resemble crew

facilities. The middle trackway at Classon would have been very handy.

Strange that they had never left it as 3 trackways BETWEEN Bed/Nost.

and Classon.

[bigrene18]

There's more:

 

 

East Broadway on the F:

At East B'way on the F Line, there locked doors at the north end of

the station mezzanine that was supposed to lead up to where the Worth Street

subway was to have a transfer station at. Nothing of the station was

built. From one end to the other there is an empty space paralelling

the station below.

 

Bellmouths east of Utica Avenue:

South of the IRT (3/4 Lines) Utica Avenue station platforms in

Brooklyn there are bellmouths on both levels for the proposed Utica

Avenue line of the IRT that was not built.

 

 

East of the Jamaica Center-Parsons/Archer station (Upper level) on the Archer Avenue Line, the track stubs turns south & abruptly ends. It was intended that the upper level (IND) was to go all the way out to Springfield Gardens, parallel with the LIRR trackage, as I had once recall from the original planning. Right now, the tracks do continue further and curves, and ends where at the stub end that a provision for a portal to go outside would have built. A Central Instrument Room (753CIR) is located deep in the tunnel on track D2A bench wall. The tail tracks on the upper level are positioned to meet up with the LIRR ROW at it's stub end. On the upper level the tracks (both D1A & D2A) curves south on 160th Street, and ends on South Road. The tail tracks at Parsons-Archer end at stationing 755+00 I believe the station platform end is at around 733+00, so there is approximatly 2200 feet of tail track. The lower level (BMT) has the trackage all the way for the provision of a diamond crossover switch at the end (circa 160th Street), and perhaps extending into a possible terminal station at Merrick Boulevard or 190th Street. In any case, as right now, a train could be easily stored as layups on each track on both levels at each ends. You can store more than one train on D1A and D2A in the back of Jamaica Center - Parsons Blvd. The J its just on train on J1 and J2 in the back at Parsons Blvd. Originally, the MTA made provisions to send the and trains to Parsons/Archer. As we all know the got the assignment. In the mid 1980's there were signs on the northbound platform at Union Turnpike denoting just that kind of service. IIRC, the and were to have originally served Archer Ave, with a special "G" shuttle operating from Jamaica Center to Van Wyck Blvd at night. A little known fact, the Archer Ave Subway line was finished years before the line opened (12/11/1988). The Archer Ave Subway line (both levels) was finished in late 1983/early 1984. The Archer Ave Line original target date of full service was supposed to be sometime in 1985. I found that hard to believe though. By the September of 1985 the ramp from the existing Jamaica Ave. El to the tunnel of the lower level Archer Avenue Subway wasn't yet connected. I remember bumper blocks at 121st which prevented trains from going east of here well into 1987. But I was sure that the was preparing to open the subway portion earlier (upper level) because I can still remember signage over the eastbound local track at Union Turnpike (covered over with black tape, but still readable) depicting an earlier service pattern (G and N to Jamaica Center, not E) as far back as early 1986, which baffled me for nearly 3 years (No signs existed showing R service to Jamaica Center, so I'd assume the E to Jamaica Center plan was already decided by mid 1987). You can kind of make out under the black tape of the northbound Grand Ave-Newtown platform sign something to the effect of "Late nights for Parsons/Archer take F local to Van Wyck Blvd for G".

 

On the BMT Broadway Line , bellmouths located south of Whitehall

Street, allowing for a connection to a never-built East River tunnel

south of the Montague Street Tunnel.

 

East of 205th Street on the IND Concourse Line, though used for D

train relays, is a train length tunnel extension on both tracks,

originally to become a line extending towards Co-Op City.

 

 

At Woodhaven Boulevard/Queens Mall, on the IND Queens Boulevard Line,

at each end of the station a bellmouth exists in the tunnel walls (N/B

& S/B), where the tunnels widen to allow conversion to an express

station. If you look carefully, these bellmouths don't branch out so

much as they veer away, but they still point ahead. The bellmouths

abruptly ends on both sides of the station.

 

 

North of 168th Street (IND 8th Avenue A/C), the center tracks continue

to the 174th Street yard, where the C train relays. These tracks was

supposed to be a proposed connection to New Jersey over the George

Washington Bridge via the lower level.

 

 

There's a bellmouth along the northbound Brighton line between Atlantic and DeKalb that I assume was built to provide access to the Ashland Place connection to the Fulton Street elevated, which was a hot issue while that part of the BMT was under construction. What is a mystery to me is that there does not appear to be a corresponding bellmouth along the southbound Brighton line tracks, or the 4th Avenue line tracks, for that matter.

 

Between 59th Street & Bay Ridge Avenue on the BMT 4th Avenue Subway,

the current tracks is on the west side of 4th Avenue. When the subway

crosses the LIRR Bay Ridge branch (the same time daylight is visible,

only for a brief moment), in a lower deck of a bridge, you could

clearly see that the bridge has four trackways of which only the 2

current western tracks are used. The tunnel leading up to each side of

the bridge was built only for the existing two tracks. The two unused

trackways on the eastern side are empty.

 

Between DeKalb Avenue and the portal to the Manhattan Bridge (Near the abandoned Myrtle Avenue station), there is a provision for a never-built loop that would of turn trains around back to Southern Brooklyn.

 

When the (Briarwood) Van Wyck Blvd station on the E and F opened in 1937, there used to be bellmouths located south of this station. This was for a proposed line down Van Wyck Blvd, as part of the IND second system. These have been since connected to the Archer Avenue Subway. The entire grade separated tunnels for tracks D1A and D2A were built as part of the Queens Blvd lines contract under Public Works Administration (PWA) project No. 2741 in 1935 and 1936. The original tunnel lighting was installed and operative. They were called tracks D5 and D6 in 1935-36 and were destined to terminate at Rockaway Blvd. The tunnel was built originally from the (Briarwood) Van Wyck Blvd station to the middle of the present interlocking just north of the Jamaica-Van Wyck station. When the Archer Avenue Extension was added the original tunnel was left original except for the addition of ties and track. I kind of figured the provision for the Van Wyck Blvd./Archer Ave. line south of the Van Wyck Blvd (Briarwood) station was built at the same time as the rest of the Queens Blvd line, given the numerous bellmouths elsewhere on the line, it made perfect sense. It certainly made things a whole lot easier when construction on the Archer Ave. line began in the 1970's.

 

East of the 21st Street-Queensbridge station, before the F line connects to the Queens Blvd line, there is a bellmouth that was supposed to be for the Super Queens express service to Forest Hills and on to Jamaica planned in 1968.

[SubwayGuy]

Too long didn't read. Here's a short list:

 

-Second Avenue Subway

-Roosevelt Avenue IND Queens Blvd Spur intended to go to Rockaways

-Worth St. Line, South 4th Street, Myrtle Avenue Subway, Houston Street subway from 2nd Avenue to South 4th

-Extension of IND Fulton Line beyond Euclid (rather than merging onto the old BMT Fulton El as it does today) - this includes the fabled 76th Street

-Extension of BMT 4th Avenue Line to Staten Island

-Extension of IRT Flushing beyond Main St. station

-Extension of IND Archer Avenue Line beyond Parsons/Archer to approximate the stations lost when the Jamaica El was torn down

-Nostrand Avenue IRT Extension

-Utica Avenue Subway

-Extension of the BMT Astoria Line eastward

 

There's more but those are the big ones. All planned never built.

[INDman]

Too long didn't read. Here's a short list:

 

 

Wow, way to steal someone's thunder with a hell of alot less information.

[Roadcruiser1]

Hey NX I hope you won't get mad because I feel like posting the map here to give more clarity to the discussion.

[bigrene18]

Too long didn't read. Here's a short list:

 

It seems like you're not even interested in these kind of stuff, if you can't even read the whole thing.

 

There's more but those are the big ones. All planned never built.

 

I already posted most of them anyways.

 

to give more clarity to the discussion.

 

I was quite clear in my posts.

[SubwayGuy]

It seems like you're not even interested in these kind of stuff, if you can't even read the whole thing.

 

No, it's just if you put huge posts with no formatting or paragraphs or heading, very few people are going to read an entire book. On the contrary, I am interested in this stuff but brevity is the soul of wit, as they say.

[bigrene18]

No, it's just if you put huge posts with no formatting or paragraphs or heading, very few people are going to read an entire book. On the contrary, I am interested in this stuff but brevity is the soul of wit, as they say.

 

Well, I'm sorry then.

[bigrene18]

A few more.....

 

There are bellmouths just west of the Liberty Avenue curve, east of Broadway Junction's switches. This is viewable from the RFW of a Fulton Street local (R32), aka the train. This was for a proposed Jamaica Avenue Subway. It was not a provision for the IND Second System as were similar never-built structures on other IND subway lines. Oddly enough, the one on the northbound side has an emergency exit. Strangely, there is nothing on model board at the Broadway/East New York tower to show this.

 

The roof canopy at the Alabama Avenue station on the is flat, suggesting that there was planned express track as the flat top would be used for support. All that remains or was built is a trackway which rises east of Broadway Junction and ends at the west end of the Alabama Avenue station. The never-used ramp was built as part of the Dual Contract reconstruction of the Broadway Junction complex that took place between 1915 and the early 1920s. At that time there was also a proposal to reroute the line via a new elevated structure directly down Jamaica Avenue and demolishing the original elevated structure over Fulton Street to eliminate the curves between Crescent Street and Cypress Hills. That ramp actually had track and 3rd rail in the 1920's but it was never used, and removed sometime after that.

 

There is an bellmouth just south of the 14th Street station on the , , and on the southbound local track. There appears to be a provision for a branch off the southbound express track as well. The space between the express and local tracks south of this station are an effect of the curve onto Greenwich St, but the space between the tracks maintains its trackbed width for longer then seems necessary. It also appears that while the active tracks upgrade, the empty trackbed either stays level or downgrades. This provision only appears on the southbound side. It seems to be just a remnant of the construction of the subway and not for any specific purpose. There is a similar type of construction on the northbound local track immediately north of the 145th Street station on the upper level.

There is inconsistency on the western side of northbound local track that suggested a junction of some kind at the point where the track curves into from Greenwich Avenue to under 8th Avenue, just south of this station. The space was a provision for switches between the local and express or they were provisions for a connection for a never built line.

 

The provision for a line that was never built can be seen on the Sixth Avenue Line Subway Queens-bound local track ( and trains) just south of the West 4th Street – Washington Square station. It is not known why this was built.

[INDman]

The provision for a line that was never built can be seen on the Sixth Avenue Line Subway Queens-bound local track ( and trains) just south of the West 4th Street – Washington Square station. It is not known why this was built.

 

That's just empty space, the express tracks are directly over that space so nothing could have been built there.

[bigrene18]

That's just empty space, the express tracks are directly over that space so nothing could have been built there.

 

How do you know that's just an empty space then?

 

I have twice rode the northbound 6th Avenue Local from Bway-Laf to West 4th and have seen our track suddenly merge into another tunnel, long before the switch with the 8th Avenue tracks. There don't appear to be any buildings or doors/entrances over there, but there is one of those blue lights against the wall near the back. Not really sure if it is a bellmouth though, so you could be right. Could be just an area they decided just to leave open during the bulding of the line. It is at the point where the norhbound local turns north onto 6th Ave. I thought I remembered some doors on the benchwall within this open area, although it has been awhile since I have gone through.

 

I had also forgotten to mention that the open area might just have been left like that because it is also merging with the 8th Ave. line on another level. Also, I don't remember seeing a bellmouth on the southbound side. Would seem odd to be just on one side.

 

Just so you know, it is on the beginning of the curve before the 6th Av. track is aligned under 6th Av.

[INDman]

How do you know that's just an empty space then?

 

 

Like I said before, there are tracks right above that open area, it is NOT a bellmouth.

[bigrene18]

Like I said before, there are tracks right above that open area, it is NOT a bellmouth.

 

Did you even read the rest of my post? I said you COULD be right.

[INDman]

Did you even read the rest of my post? I said you COULD be right.

 

I read it and like I said, after looking at maps and drawing of the area, it's empty space.

[CenSin]

Hey NX I hope you won't get mad because I feel like posting the map here to give more clarity to the discussion.

His long posts cover some things the map doesn't cover and vice versa.

[bigrene18]

I read it and like I said, after looking at maps and drawing of the area, it's empty space.

 

Looks more like a bellmouth to me still....

 

A empty space in the tunnel doesn't even shape like that.

[bigrene18]

Another few:

 

About 30 years ago I took the 70(RR) train downtown going towards 95 St. South of 36th St, After the ( (now the ) veered off to the left to make the ramp going up toward 9 Ave, There was another ramp that went downhill and a left turn going east. This four track turnout I saw was originally to have been a connection to a four track route going east under 40 Street(#11F). The turnouts extend as far as the east building line of 4 Avenue. After construction had begun it was decided to make the connection into the West End and Culver Lines via "Culver Cut." This involved removing the original south half of the 36 Street Station and extending the platforms to the north.

 

From Tunnel Rat (From SubChat/SubTalk): At the Bedford-Nostrand Avenue station on the is a 600 foot BRT subway tunnel that crosses under the at this point. This tunnel was rediscovered in 1965 by a signal maintainer & his helper who (IIRC) were cleaning out a fan chamber & found a manhole and opened it up, and smelled freshly poured concrete,went down a rung ladder & found themselves on a 600 foot empty subway tunnel that the T.A. had no blueprints on. Through extensive research I found out the end of the Franklin Avenue Shuttle was supposed to connect to Queensboro Plaza & this section of tunnel was built in anticipation of the G line being built. No provision for a transfer station was built here. I never could find the entrance to this tunnel & am still trying [when the urge hits me]. BTW, I don't know how true this is because I never heard this one before.

 

There is a very slight provision on the Chambers Street/Broad Street-bound curve between Bowery & Canal Street on the Nassau Street line. If I remember the original plans correctly, this provision was for a branch into the IRT subway at Spring St, for which no definite plan was ever provided. The joint in the wall is fairly slight. It doesn't really look like a bellmouth.

 

People I talked to says that bellmouth on the local track just past the northbound platform at 145th St. on the 8th Avenue Line was for a provision for a line to The Bronx. So why build an additional trackway from the upper level that is beginning to turn away on St. Nicholas Avenue to the diverging Concourse line? This idea is even more puzzling especially when there isn't a provision for a similar southbound track. Here's what I think - the IND had money to spend, or money to burn. The architecture of the area, the streets and avenues, the trackpaths of the trains, the engineering to support the whole operation simply creates blank un-used spaces. Especially since there is no record of any plans of the IND having anything other than a Washington Heights Branch and a Concourse branch. While in other places in the IND there were "tunnel-stubs" to what would be turnoffs to other IND-Second System lines in a spaghetti-like configuration, I do not think that is the case here. The so called "bellmouth" N/O 145 St U/L on A-2 track is just a vagary of the construction in that area and was never intended for any expansion use.

[MikeGerald]

"People I talked to says that bellmouth on the local track just past the northbound platform at 145th St. on the 8th Avenue Line was for a provision for a line to The Bronx. So why build an additional trackway from the upper level that is beginning to turn away on St. Nicholas Avenue to the diverging Concourse line? This idea is even more puzzling especially when there isn't a provision for a similar southbound track. Here's what I think - the IND had money to spend, or money to burn. The architecture of the area, the streets and avenues, the trackpaths of the trains, the engineering to support the whole operation simply creates blank un-used spaces. Especially since there is no record of any plans of the IND having anything other than a Washington Heights Branch and a Concourse branch. While in other places in the IND there were "tunnel-stubs" to what would be turnoffs to other IND-Second System lines in a spaghetti-like configuration, I do not think that is the case here. The so called "bellmouth" N/O 145 St U/L on A-2 track is just a vagary of the construction in that area and was never intended for any expansion use."

 

The Concourse line does not immediately turn east north of the 145th Street station toward the Polo Grounds as most think, rather the line continues northward a bit as indicated on "Sanborn" or "Bromley" maps made after the subways were built and also shown on such maps up until the 1990's. The Concourse line extends a bit, while it is the St. Nicholas Avenue branch of the Washington Heights line that turns at a bit, and begins the descent of the express tracks for the 155th Street station. When I worked in the planning office on 125th Street in Harlem, I looked at and reviewed the Sanborn maps of Harlem/northern Manhattan on a daily basis. The open space is simply the roof of the Concourse line in the subway structure below it.

 

Mike