7 Train to Hoboken

[matthewhandler]

 

We all know that with the death of the ARC Tunnel, bloggers and local politicians have been scrambling to think of alternative ideas. The most popular in recent weeks has been extending the 7 train to Secaucus Junction. While this does create a new rail link to NJ Transit, to alleviate traffic on the old cross-hudson rail tunnels, it doesn't solve a lot of other problems that have been plaguing NJ commuters for decades, and does not make use of existing and new infrastructural developments. For these reasons, and I know I'm not the first to do so, I would like to propose that the 7 Train be extended to Hoboken Terminal, via a southern extension under 11th Avenue. Here are some key reasons why this, and not a full blown extension to Secaucus, is the right choice.

 

1. COST -- tunneling under the Hudson River is going to be expensive enough as it is. Why tunnel for nearly 4 miles deep underneath Hoboken and the meadowlands just to get to Secaucus, when you could cut the tunneling by over 50% and just end at Hoboken. The purpose of the ARC train in Secaucus was two fold, 1) to create another tunnel into Penn Station, and 2) provide riders from NJ Transit points north a one seat ride into the city. With the ARC tunnel declared dead, the 7 train to secaucus proposal solves neither of these problems. The Hoboken connection, however, provides a much better alternative....

 

2. HOBOKEN CONNECTIONS-- Hoboken Terminal is home to more rail, ground, and water transit lines than any other metropolitan area transit center. Secaucus provides links to all of the NJ transit lines, but no local rapid transit lines or subways. In addition, its isolated from residential and commercial development. Penn Station on the other hand is home to ALMOST all NJ Transit lines, and two subway connections. However, it is operating way beyond peak capacity, suffers from a poor design, and is overcrowded. No one likes Penn Station. Hoboken Terminal on the other hand, has connections to ALL NJ Transit lines, the PATH train, Hudson Bergen Light Rail, Hudson Ferries, and with some luck, a NYC subway connection. In addition, Hoboken, unlike Secaucus, is a growing and lively city in its own right. A submerged subway link within Hoboken Terminal would provide direct access to Midtown, including the EAST SIDE, to ALL NJ Transit lines, the expanding Hudson Bergen Light Rail, and PATH Train. No other option on the table provides this kind of transit access.

 

3. ALLEVIATE PENN STATION-- an ARC tunnel to Penn Station would NOT have helped alleviate Penn Station. It would have increased traffic through the station, and would have done nothing to modify the actual Penn Station layout. Hate to say it, but with the "renovation" of MSG, instead of its relocation, Moynihan Station aint happening, and Penn Station is here to stay in its current form. But, what if you could divert a portion of Penn Station traffic to Hoboken Terminal, where they would be able to take a subway to both Midtown West AND Midtown East. Problem solved. Lets clear up Penn Station traffic. The ARC Tunnel didn't offer that option.

 

4. HIGH LINE FAR WEST SIDE DEVELOPMENT -- A southern extension of the 7 Train, which currently has rail spurs to 25th street, would allow for a 14th Street / 11th Avenue subway stop, which could eventually connect to an extended L train. With the growth of the Meatpacking District, installation of the new Whitney Museum, increasing construction in that area, and upcoming opening of the High Line phase 2, what better place to have a new subway link to Midtown West and Midtown East. MTA commuters could take a train from Tarrytown or New Rochelle to Grand Central, and hop on a subway to the Meatpacking District. Currently, the closest subway to that area is the L/ACE train at 14th and 8th, about a 15 minute walk. In terms of cost and construction, the intersection of 14th Street, 11th Avenue, and 10th Avenue, provides plenty of space for street grade construction without significantly disrupting traffic. There are several onramps which could be temporarily disabled, and a large park. The current 7 train extension to Secaucus proposal could also integrate this subway link.

 

5. DIRECT SUBWAY LINK TO NEWARK AIRPORT / MEADOWLANDS / XANADU -- NJ has invested greatly in the Meadowlands NJ Transit stop, the Newark Airtran and Newark Airport NJ Transit stop, and (the seemingly worthless) Xanadu project. If you want to open up access to these points in a greater volume, more efficiently, and at less cost, a 7 train extension to Hoboken could eventually connect through to the existing NJ transit lines, proving the public with a direct subway link to these points. This could drastically cut transit times to Newark Airport, the Meadowlands Sports Complex, and Xanadu, making them more attractive than the hour long trip to JFK or bus/subway combo to LaGuardia. Not to mention, the Nets are picking up to leave to Brooklyn. If you want to entice future franchises to the aging IZOD center, or a future arena, you may want to also include a direct subway link to the Meadowlands Sports NJ Transit stop.

 

6. HOBOKEN vs. SECAUCUS -- When you think of Secaucus, you think of a place where the mafia takes their recent victims. When you think of Hoboken, you think of 20 somethings celebrating St. Patty's day, but also an up and coming community, with local links to Weehawken, Port Imperial, West New York, Jersey City, Harrison, and Newark. Why not utilize the existing infrastructure and help expand these parts to benefit both New Jersey and New York. The Secaucus option does not aim to do this, nor would it do this.

 

I am not a graphic artist, but I made a little mockup of the planned route. I have scribbled several track map ideas for the connections with the L train, and at Hoboken Terminal, being that the 7 and L are A and B series transit lines, and would not be able to share a platform with one another without some sort of adjustable platform configuration. They could, however, both share rail tracks and a terminus station with multiple platforms, like at the current Hoboken PATH terminus.

 

Reactions? Thoughts?

 

[Roadcruiser1]

A)Your proposal won't happen because the is an IRT line and the is a IND/BMT line. They both have different car length and widths although it might work if it's a bi-level tunnel which won't happen because it would be expensive.

B)You have just drawn another map that someone else on the forums and on their website has drawn a long time ago named Vanshnookenraggen.

.

C)The extension plan is to Secaucus not Hoboken though it might be interesting if the extension to New Jersey would travel through Hoboken and Journal Square all the way to Secaucus with stations, it could be three tracked and the could serve as an express.

D)A better proposal would be the which has 75 ft BMT/IND cars which are wider and longer so it could handle the passengers from New Jersey.

[NX Express]

How about just extend the and trains? The is too narrow, and, as stated above, is incompatible with the .

You could also just extend the MNR New Jersey Lines to somewhere in Manhattan (i.e. Grand Central).

[Alargule]

The might be 'too narrow', but at least it goes to a lot more interesting places than the does (Javits Ctr, Times Sq, Grand Central...). That's why a extension would be much more viable than an extension of the line. Platforms at all the Manhattan stations would have to be lengthened and widened to cope with the extra passenger load. Not to mention the installation of more escalators to and from the platforms. So all in all, a extension would still comprise a lot more than just boring a tunnel right into NJ.

[lilbluefoxie]

how about no, the to Jersey idea is no good, they better off expanding PATH

[SoSpectacular]

Leave the alone, it's not going to NJ, nor does it need to, that is what PATH is for. Look to them for answers. Sheesh....

[Roadcruiser1]

Why would PATH extend to Grand Central when they canceled ARC 2 months back?. A better idea is to extend the current PATH from Penn Station to Grand Central. It's cheaper then digging a whole new tunnel under the Hudson, and they could branch off the curent PATH line near Secaucus to Secaucus knocking off two birds in one stone.

 

There is actually no need to a Hoboken Extension if they use PATH because PATH already serves Hoboken.

[Roadcruiser1]

Anyway I thought up of this idea instead. The would be extended to New Jersey using the current 14th Street station. It would run from there to Hoboken Terminal, Pavonia-Newport, Jersey Avenue, Journal Square, and etc all the way to Secaucus. Then they can extend the current , to 14th Street and create a transfer point from the to the , which still allows people to get to Grand Central.

 

Anyway these extensions to New Jersey would not be given money from the . It would have to be given state and national permission. Also it would have to be paid for by the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey.

[TwoTimer]

 

D)A better proposal would be the which has 75 ft BMT/IND cars which are wider and longer so it could handle the passengers from New Jersey.

You're actually wrong. The uses 60' ft equipment 8 cars long, for a total of 480 ft. That's shorter and all likelyhood fits fewer people than the 560' of 11 cars of the . Now the L has those wide body cars 143/160 and while packed, still has a roomier feel than the boxy-like 62A's. However, by time such a plan was executed, built and put into service, who knows what cars the line would run by then.

[metsfan]

I have a better idea:

 

 

- A

[matthewhandler]

A few things to note about these replies, mainly with the one referring to the vanshnookblog or whatever it is. I love their maps, great stuff. But their suggestion with their number 7 train to Hoboken ignores several things that are present in my plan.

 

1) Simplicity, which ultimately equals cost. Their plan requires significantly more tunneling and money. My plan suggests connecting the 7/L directly to Hoboken Terminal, via either an annex on the east side of the terminal, or an underground connection under the terminal. As to your comment on the 7 and L trains being IRT and BMT, I addressed this in my post. Let me explain how the two divisions, A and B, work. The 7 train is skinnier than the L, but thats not because the track gauge is skinnier. Both are 4 feet, 8 and a half inches wide. Thus, they both can run on the same track underneath the hudson, and connect on the same rail. The tunnel would have to be able to accommodate the L, which it would do no problem since no one in their right mind would build a tunnel that could only accommodate IRT trains. In terms of the Hoboken terminal stop for the 7/L, all you need is two island platforms and problem solved. The express platform could be designed to accommodate the 7, and the local, the L, or vice versa. In other words, no problem. This is done where the 7 train and BMT share a stop in Queens at Queensboro Plaza.

 

2) Vanshnooki's plan for the 7 train involves several stops in "hoboken", but none that connect to Hoboken Terminal, which defeats the whole purpose of spending several Billion dollars on the project to begin with. Connecting to Hoboken Terminal links the NYC subway to ALL NJ Transit lines, PATH train, and Hudson Bergen Rail. Vanshnook's plan does not. So when I said, in my original post, that I was not the first to suggest the 7 going to Hoboken, I was well aware of other plans. However, none have suggested in such simplicity for it to connect, in an inexpensive manner, directly to Hoboken Terminal. The infrastructure supports a connection to Hoboken Terminal. The large rail yard next to Hoboken terminal allows for future connections to the main NJ Transit lines similar to LIRR's connection to Grand Central via the Sunnyside Yards. Its a less expensive, more efficient, and greater impact alternative. That was the whole point. See my original post, it spells out the advantages to existing proposals.

[matthewhandler]

AND, see two posts above my last post. I meant to explain that you don't have your facts right when it comes to train length and capacity. The 7 is the only 11 car train in the system. There is nothing impossible about my suggestion. You can easily mix the two divisions so long as they are not sharing individual platforms, which I have not suggested.

[mark1447]

None of this aint happening. So idk whats the point. The to NJ idk..

 

PATH is all you got.

 

I still think the ARC project should be built.

[matthewhandler]

why should the ARC project be built. It was going to build two more tunnels into an overcrowded train station that does not have any access to Midtown East. It was also going to spend several hundred million dollars just so that commuters from NJ Transit north wouldn't have to walk down two flights of stairs to connect to one of the hundreds of Secaucus to Penn Station trains that travel through the Junction an hour. The ARC tunnel was proposed when there was supposed to be a brand new Moynihan Station with more capacity, better connections, etc. The 7/L train suggestion utilizes existing infrastructure to alleviate overcrowding in Penn Station and connect commuters more efficiently to points east. If you live in NJ and work in the Chrysler Building, good luck. The ARC tunnel would have done nothing except make Penn Station even more unbearable. The proposals on blogs like this are great, but often fantastical. They take no mind as to cost and construction obstacles. I'm no engineer, but at least I have attempted to take into consideration the cost of the proposal I have put forth, while simultaneously demonstrating the likely positive economic results of the proposal for NJ and NY.

[rr4567]

Hows about this - No.

 

1) No money. Unless Christie wants to shoot money out his nose.

 

2) It's called the New York City Subway for a reason.

 

3) People act like the 7 could deal with the increased distance.

 

4) PATH. $1.75.

 

5) NJT.

 

6) Would it even be legal for the MTA to do interstate operations?

[Trainmaster5]

Hows about this - No.

 

1) No money. Unless Christie wants to shoot money out his nose.

 

2) It's called the New York City Subway for a reason.

 

3) People act like the 7 could deal with the increased distance.

 

4) PATH. $1.75.

 

5) NJT.

 

6) Would it even be legal for the MTA to do interstate operations?

 

Re:#2 - Most parochial thinking New Yorkers, ( I'm one), forget that the subway belongs to the , not New York City. That's METROPOLITAN, as in metro area, and they and the PANY&NJ can do what they please when they make up their minds to do something. It's all about money and power and the subsidiary, NYCT, has neither anymore. Especially with any project crossing the Hudson River below the GWB where the PANY&NJ reigns supreme by law.

[Alargule]

I've heard the "it's called the NYC Subway" argument too many times now to take it - or the people using it to defend their opposition of the extension - seriously any longer.

NY and NJ form one metropolitan area, with lots of people coming from NJ into NY each day for their jobs or leisure activities. And there's bound to be some 'reverse commuting' (meaning New Yorkers going to NJ (just imagine!)), too.

 

An extension of the NYC subway system into NJ - be it the as has been the hot proposal of the last few weeks, the or any other line that could be extended across the Hudson - would benefit a lot of people on both sides of the Hudson river.

 

Whether it is the best option is something that has to be studied - thorougly - in comparison to all the other alternatives, like the ARC project or a better integration of the PATH system into the subway system.

[rr4567]

I've heard the "it's called the NYC Subway" argument too many times now to take it - or the people using it to defend their opposition of the extension - seriously any longer.

NY and NJ form one metropolitan area, with lots of people coming from NJ into NY each day for their jobs or leisure activities. And there's bound to be some 'reverse commuting' (meaning New Yorkers going to NJ (just imagine!)), too.

 

An extension of the NYC subway system into NJ - be it the as has been the hot proposal of the last few weeks, the or any other line that could be extended across the Hudson - would benefit a lot of people on both sides of the Hudson river.

 

Whether it is the best option is something that has to be studied - thorougly - in comparison to all the other alternatives, like the ARC project or a better integration of the PATH system into the subway system.

 

Here's my problem. Even IF they extend it into New Jersey, all current plans call for it to go one station or mimic PATH. Is that really worth the hundreds of millions, possibly billions, of dollars.

[Roadcruiser1]

Have you forgotten about the platform differences between IRT and BMT/IND trains. Such a difference would require platform fillers for the gaps between the IRT and BMT like the at the old South Ferry loop. Also in your plan there is no need for express service since you are only serving Hoboken Terminal which in reality would be useless because you would need to get into the interior of New Jersey like Secaucus to get the customers to use the line via with lots of stations. If the is going to go to New Jersey it should be best a three track line in New Jersey with Bi-directional express service which would be the .

 

Also for the Hoboken Terminal I suggest that you just turn it into another Hudson Yard redevelopment project. You could call it the Hoboken Yard redevelopment project, and from there it would be ok to not have trains to stop there.

[Alargule]

Here's my problem. Even IF they extend it into New Jersey, all current plans call for it to go one station or mimic PATH. Is that really worth the hundreds of millions, possibly billions, of dollars.

 

I believe your question is rhetorical - you probably do not think it's worth all those dollars. I really don't know about it yet, and I believe the people who ultimately have to make a desicion about don't know it either - but until then, I do believe it should be approached as a serious alternative to the ARC plan.

[Roadcruiser1]

Also it doesn't matter if the New York City Subway is called the New York City Subway. In some places in the world Subway Systems have stops at where we would call Nassau County. It doesn't matter as long as a subway system has Jurisdiction to cross into another state, but hopefully any NYC Subway extension to New Jersey would be a joint operation by the , Port Authority of NY/NJ, and the New Jersey Transit.

[NYtransit]

I think were missing something here...oh ya,the MTA is in debt and the damn people cant give MTA money but for stupid plans like this? and if it ever does get built,it will just eat up the MTA funds some more.

[rr4567]

I believe your question is rhetorical - you probably do not think it's worth all those dollars. I really don't know about it yet, and I believe the people who ultimately have to make a desicion about don't know it either - but until then, I do believe it should be approached as a serious alternative to the ARC plan.

 

The problem for the plan to mimic PATH is that people will want to use the cheaper alternative. The cheaper alternative will be PATH. The other plan, to extend it one stop into Jersey, that's like saying "We're gonna use all this money to add one stop after Coney Island". Even if that one station extension gets built, it'll take YEARS to recover construction costs in the form of fares.

[Roadcruiser1]

NY Transit thats why there's $3 billion dollars of Federal funding available, and anyway this type of project would be funded by by the Port Authority of NY & NJ not the , because it would be going on to New Jersey.

[Roadcruiser1]

Matthew Handler for your post eariler Vanshnookenraggen actually wants to create a transfer between the , Hoboken Terminal station in his proposal to the regular Hoboken Terminal station and bus depot. It would still serve Hoboken Terminal.