7 Train to Hoboken

[Urbanfortitude]

You want to use the NYC subway? Come into NYC and use it.

[matthewhandler]

Road Cruiser -- vanschnook's plan has the 7 connecting to Hoboken near the terminal, at Washington Street. Two problems with this, 1) its not a direct connection, but more importantly, 2) its part of a much larger, much more expensive 7 train extension. Just up to that point its more expensive, with many more stops. They nixxed the 10th avenue 41st street station even though the tracks and infrastructure were built around that station, why, because of cost. I agree that this is all very hypothetical, but there are $3 billion in unused funds at the Port Authority, federal funding and public policy pushing towards mass transit improvements, and the public wants a new connection to NJ. NJ commuters hate Penn Station. PATH train users have it great if you work at the WTC or on Sixth Avenue. But if not, what's your alternative? My suggestion was made to be cost effective, and open up many commuter combinations, which would alleviate Penn Station.

 

Road Cruiser again -- as for the differences between the IRT and BMT/IND trains, this would simply be solved by a dual island station. This would be much more expensive and less feasible (because of road width) under Vanschnooks plan. But building a single station, with dual platforms as I had suggested, solves the problem of having the two different systems working together. They can share a tunnel and track no problem. See my earlier posts and others that talk directly about this.

 

As for arguments that the NYC Subway is NYC Subway for a reason, that's just close minded and backward thinking. Do you think that 100 years from now the NYC Subway will NOT have expanded into NJ. It already has joint operations with the Port Authority, links to JFK Airport, the PATH, and other NY/NJ operations. If the plan makes sense for the MTA, the State of NJ, and the State of NY and NYC, why wouldn't the parties get on board. The problems are not going to solve themselves, and if either side wants to promote long term sustainable growth, I think its a feasible, simple, cost-effective plan to help connect existing infrastructure. Plus, why spend billions of dollars on building additional stations throughout NJ when they already have PATH and the new Hudson Bergen Light Rail. The only thing missing is a central connection to NYC. The 7/L extension to Hoboken completes this missing link.

[Kamen Rider]

Please, watch the Nazi Banksters Crimes Ripple Effect at http://jforjustice.co.uk/banksters

[Kamen Rider]

Please, watch the Nazi Banksters Crimes Ripple Effect at http://jforjustice.co.uk/banksters

[matthewhandler]

If you see a thanks in this thread with my name, it's an accident.

 

I was amining for quote, but missed.

 

anyway, no, you can't just easily mix them. IRT cars have thier trip valves on the right, BMT/IND have them on the left.

 

There are already two places in the system where the two divisions cross over and share track. 1) Queensboro Plaza 2) Junius St / Livonia Ave. Even if this were a problem, which its not, its fixable. Modify the track or the cars on the two lines. Easy fix. No need to bolster silly problems when the real hindrance is politics and money.

[Roadcruiser1]

The real point everyone is trying to make is any subway extension to NJ would be unviable as long as you build only one station in New Jersey. That's why even the current plan of extending the , to Secaucus with only one station (Secaucus) would fail. You need to build more then one station to have people use it. It's like building the Second Avenue Subway with a station at 125th Street and Hanover Square and that's it. Unless if it's some superexpress service then that might happen, but it isn't because these superexpress or one station lines won't gain the customers to profit from the construction budget.

[SoSpectacular]

I don't see why I'd want to spend $2.25 over $1.75... LOL

 

It's just ridiculous. They're better off finding another damn option.

[Kamen Rider]

Please, watch the Nazi Banksters Crimes Ripple Effect at http://jforjustice.co.uk/banksters

[matthewhandler]

Not true, that's just a connection for non revenue moves.

 

 

 

that's not third rail powered, and only leads to the Linden Iron shops.

 

 

True for the Linden Shops, but not true for Queensboro Plaza, where at one point, revenue service was shared between the lines. Look at the current connections, even on Google Maps, and you can see just how easily the share is accomplished. True that sharing platforms would result in a gap, but that's why I suggested two island platforms, with one line coming through the middle and the other going on the sides.

[Roadcruiser1]

Look there is no need for both the , and the to go to NJ. If it ever happens you could dig a four track line or a three track line and have the run as an express and the as a local. If it's the in NJ it could be accomplished by creating a <>. There is no need for another service to be used as an express.

[Kamen Rider]

Please, watch the Nazi Banksters Crimes Ripple Effect at http://jforjustice.co.uk/banksters

[matthewhandler]

The real point everyone is trying to make is any subway extension to NJ would be unviable as long as you build only one station in New Jersey. That's why even the current plan of extending the , to Secaucus with only one station (Secaucus) would fail. You need to build more then one station to have people use it. It's like building the Second Avenue Subway with a station at 125th Street and Hanover Square and that's it. Unless if it's some superexpress service then that might happen, but it isn't because these superexpress or one station lines won't gain the customers to profit from the construction budget.

 

My initial map was a first phase. I described in my original post that the 7/L could eventually connect with existing NJ Transit lines to connect to the Meadowlands / Xanadu and Newark Airport. But if you are looking at it as in building one station to New Jersey, in a vacuum, that's not a good approach. If New Jersey were some unconquered frontier, yes, building a single station would be silly. But I'm suggesting connecting Hoboken Terminal, which has more rail / ground / ferry connections than any other terminal in the metro area, to the NYC subway system. If you think you need multiple stations in Hoboken to make this route successful, just ask commuters from Rockland / Bergen Counties, or commuters traveling to points in Midtown East or Union Square. Hoboken Terminal gets 4.5 million NJ transit commuters and 1.2 HBLR transit commuters, and that number is growing. HBLR is up 20% from last year, and with the opening of additional stations on the route, that number is expected to grow. Meanwhile, Penn Station sees 20 million commuters from NJ transit with another 8 million from Amtrak and who knows how many from LIRR. But for all of the disparity in traffic, Hoboken Terminal has 18 tracks, Penn Station has 21. So in terms of capacity, its not that Hoboken Terminal can't handle more traffic, but there is no demand. People know if they end up at Hoboken Terminal, their only options into the city are the PATH train or Hudson ferries. If there was a link with the 7/L, you really don't think commuters on NJ transit would choose which terminus was a better link to their ultimate destination? Of course they would. Commuters to Midtown West would choose Penn Station. Commuters to Midtown East would likely choose Hoboken Terminal. And commuters from the North, who currently have to transfer at Secaucus Junction, would also probably divert in large numbers to Hoboken Terminal, where they would have one less connection to make en route to their ultimate destination. In other words, if you look at the extension as a single stop in New JErsey in a vacuum, you would be ignoring all of the existing infrastructure in place that lead to Hoboken Terminal. Its an underutilized transit hub, and Penn Station is horrible. Its a cost effective easy step towards improving regional transit.

[matthewhandler]

I don't think you understand how Queensboro Plaza worked. BMT subway trains terminated at QBP, you got off and switched to an El train, which was built to IRT stands. only IRT trains had thru service.

 

[Roadcruiser1]

Here is a better idea. You can extend the to 23rd Street and have the , extended to 23rd Street, and then you can run it father to New Jersey and have people transfer to the at 23rd Street, and there is no need for a to run to NJ because the express service in NJ is served by the . People on the would transfer to the too. There is nothing wrong with transfering look at Atlantic Avenue-Pacific Street. It's full of people transferring from one train to another.

[Roadcruiser1]

Dual tracks doesn't mean those tracks are served by both IRT and BMT services it means that the tracks are bi leveled, and you can tell that the IRT service used the Queensboro Bridge.

[matthewhandler]

Here is a better idea. You can extend the to 23rd Street and have the , extended to 23rd Street, and then you can run it father to New Jersey and have people transfer to the at 23rd Street, and there is no need for a to run to NJ because the express service in NJ is served by the . People on the would transfer to the too. There is nothing wrong with transfering look at Atlantic Avenue-Pacific Street. It's full of people transferring from one train to another.

 

Good idea, except its just one extra transfer. Being that the majority of commuters will likely use the 7 train anyway, its not a big deal. Several other issues though. 1) If you are going to propose spending the money to extend the L north, why not spend the same amount of money to extend the 7 south so that people coming from Midtown can access the Meatpacking District / High Line. 2) In terms of cost, building a direct tunnel from 23rd street would cost more money than from ~10th street in terms of distance tunneling. One of the reasons I suggested making the connection at 14th Street with the L was because of the abundance of road / park / open space from which to construct the actual connection. This means less road delays and costs in doing the actual construction. Nevertheless, I like where your head's at. I'm just trying to propose something simple, cost effective, and intuitive.

[matthewhandler]

Dual tracks doesn't mean those tracks are served by both IRT and BMT services it means that the tracks are bi leveled, and you can tell that the IRT service used the Queensboro Bridge.

 

My point wasn't that they shared revenue service, which I still assert they did with modified cars, but that they could share track. We can all agree that they can't share platforms without a modification (which still wouldn't be a big deal). But there seems to be a disagreement about their ability to share track, which I believe is unfounded. There are two places in the subway system where track is shared. Its not shared for show. It either has, or used to have, a shared purpose. If you use a dual island platform, combining the two divisions is not a problem. Eventually, since I proposed connecting the extension to the NJ transit main lines, similar to the new LIRR alignment in Sunnyside Yards, perhaps the 7 could terminate at Hoboken Terminal and the L could extend to other stations, since the L, I believe, would be compatible with existing NJ Transit platforms. I may be wrong on this. Either way, again, the track / platform / rolling stock problems are not material hindrances. The big hindrance is cost and politics.

[Tokkemon]

Imagine this:

 

Have the PANYNJ sell the PATH to the MTA and integrate it into one system. That would infuse several billion $$ into the and unite the two state's Metro areas which are ridiculously separated because of the politics between the two states. Its amazing that in a city the size of New York, there are only three Vehicular crossings, and ONE train crossing into Manhattan between the western half of the city.

[Roadcruiser1]

I don't think the can afford the money to buy PATH from the Port Authority of New Jersey and New Jersey.

 

Also again the isn't needed in NJ. The only train service that would ever possibly go to NJ would be the , and there is no need for an express in New Jersey followed by a local , or a express local , because again I will say this, and it's the last time I am saying it because I have had been saying this for a million times the if it ever goes to NJ could have the as the express. Have you ever heard of the Matthew. If you haven't the is the Flushing Local and the is the Flushing Express. If the ever runs into NJ from Hoboken to Secaucus the can run express and the can run local. In my idea the and the , would be extended to 23rd Street, Manhattan where there would be a transfer from the , to the . From there the , would branch away from Manhattan and run underneath the Hudson and it would stop at it's first stop in NJ (4th Street, Hoboken), and continue on as a four track line with the as an express and the as a local. From there there would be stations all the way to Secaucus.

[Tokkemon]

You do realize that using more bullets doesn't make your points more valid don't you?

 

[SoSpectacular]

*Epic facepalm*

 

It's a foamer's dream, what can I say?

[Roadcruiser1]

I am not trying to foam all I am saying is the can't run with the and if the does go to New Jersey most likely the would be the express there is no need for the to go to New Jersey.

[matthewhandler]

I am not trying to foam all I am saying is the can't run with the and if the does go to New Jersey most likely the would be the express there is no need for the to go to New Jersey.

 

The idea of the and L terminating in Manhattan with the continuing is a good one. That being said, there is no reason why the and L can't terminate at Hoboken Terminal, with the continuing to the Meadowlands / Xanadu, and/or Newark Airport or other points along the NJ Transit lines. Which leads me to two questions:

 

1) Why are you insistent on having the subway go to Secaucus? What would be accomplished by going to Secaucus that wouldn't already be accomplished by having a link at Hoboken Terminal?

 

and

 

2) Why are you ignoring the cost of all of this? Are you seriously proposing building a four track multi-stop line throughout Hoboken and west towards Secaucus. They might as well have spent the money on the ARC tunnel. It would probably cost more to do multi stops with a four track set up.

 

And for the last time, the (7)/<7> and the L cannot share a common platform. But they share the same track gauge and thus can run on the same track. Both lines include powering elements on both sides of the train. IF there are other engineering obstacles, like the trip valve that someone mentioned before, I'm sure the trains could be modified, or by the time this thing ever gets built, there will likely be a new class of trains altogether. This is not an obstacle. Its not like one train runs on a track gauge of 4 and a half feet and the other on 5 feet. They both run on track gauges of 4 feet 8 and a half inches. This is demonstrated by the connections between the lines at Queensboro Plaza and to the Linden Shops, even though they are not used for revenue service.

[matthewhandler]

Imagine this:

 

Have the PANYNJ sell the PATH to the MTA and integrate it into one system. That would infuse several billion $$ into the and unite the two state's Metro areas which are ridiculously separated because of the politics between the two states. Its amazing that in a city the size of New York, there are only three Vehicular crossings, and ONE train crossing into Manhattan between the western half of the city.

 

The politics and lack of crossings are ridiculous. The PATH wasn't made for NYC. It was made for a place like London or Paris. The entrances and exits are poorly designed in Manhattan, and expanding the PATH would be a poor decision in my opinion. Lets just enjoy that its 1.75 and that will be its appeal. For those that live in Newark or Jersey City, its a good way to get to the Hoboken Terminal, where they could then jump on the newly constructed extension. But I definitely agree with you that the lack of integration has hurt the growth of the area, mainly New Jersey, who relies on NYC for jobs but still tries to isolate itself from the city in terms of transit.

[Roadcruiser1]

It's not useful to just extend the one stop into NJ. It's not useful and it's not worth the price to make a lower platform for the in NJ or a lower level for the . They might be able to share the tunnel through the Hudson if it's wide enough, but the would require a whole new lower level. Anyway the whole reason why there is IRT and BMT type cars is because of the width of the tunnels. The IRT tunnels are narrower then the BMT tunnels that's why they can't run together. If the want's to they can make the Flushing Line from A to B division but the cost would be staggering along with the Steinway Tunnel it isn't a good option.

 

I keep making mention of Secaucus because the current plans include extending the , to Secaucus. The , even in Vanshnookenraggen's plan includes a transfer at Hoboken Terminal between the PATH and the HBLR.

 

In the end it comes up to the is better at where it is right now. Maybe it could be extended up to 23rd Street in Manhattan if something happens, but it isn't worth it to send it to New Jersey. I have to say this it's better to extend the south of Canarsie farther down into Brooklyn as a crosstown Brooklyn line then send it to New Jersey especially if such an idea includes the Cesar Bay Shopping Area because the buses down there are frequently overcrowded.

 

If part of your reason of extending the to New Jersey because you think the , can't handle the new crowd of people from NJ which would use the , you are wrong because it would do fine in NJ by itself. It can handle the crowd in Queens which has almost the same density of the population in New Jersey. The , would do fine by itself.

 

Also a New Jersey extension of the doesn't have to be four tracked. It could be three tracked like the Flushing Line so the would be a peak directional express train like back in Flushing. That would mean in the morning the from New Jersey would run express to Manhattan, but would run local in Manhattan, and Queens. The from Queens in the morning would run express in Queens, but local in Manhattan, and NJ.

 

At night the from Queens would run local in Queens, and Manhattan, but express in New Jersey. The from New Jersey would run local in New Jersey, and Manhattan, but express in Queens.