7 Train to Hoboken

[Tokkemon]

Srsly, the BMT/IRT differences are the LEAST of the problems on getting this thing done.

 

So why can't we just twin the original PRR Tunnels and be done with it?

[matthewhandler]

Srsly, the BMT/IRT differences are the LEAST of the problems on getting this thing done.

 

So why can't we just twin the original PRR Tunnels and be done with it?

 

You really want to add more traffic to Penn Station? Penn Station has 21 tracks for NJ Transit, Amtrak, and LIRR, and no access to Midtown East, Union Square, Queens, etc. Hoboken Terminal has 18 tracks for just NJ Transit and happens to be located right on the water. Where do you think there is more room for expansion?

[Roadcruiser1]

In reality the estimation for the extension to Secaucus back in November was $5 billion. If you send it through Hoboken and add more stations to the entire route including a 3 track configuration line from 23rd Street, Manhattan-Secaucus via Hoboken it would be as expensive as ARC itself, and if there are delays and construction equipment failures it might be even more expensive. In total this might cost somewhere between $11-13 billion dollars. The US Government might be willing to give more then $3 billion dollars if this goes through, but at most I did say the US Government would only give somewhere between $5-6 billion. The other half would be coming out of our pockets, because it would be constructed and funded by the Port Authority which uses our tax dollars.

 

Matthew again I told you only the , would go on to NJ if this goes through I don't want to hear anything else about the , and for the millionth time if this happens the wouldn't got directly to Hoboken Terminal. A train can't just shoot out a tunnel and then stop. Tunnels have approaches just like a bridge that's why Vanshnookenraggen drew his plan like that instead of turning it into something like yours. Even if the branches off of Manhattan from 23rd Street it would still have to stop at 4th Street, Hoboken. That station could be made a local station. The next station would be Hoboken Terminal and that could be an express station, and from there people would use a passageway (transfer) to go to the bus depot, the HBLR, and PATH. From there the , would continue on to go all the way to Secaucus making local and express stops.

 

Matthew stop pushing on this. If you ever studied basic engineering (I've studied on the subject) you know that it's impossible to have a station at a tunnels approach, and you can't put a station directly after running a train through the tunnel. You would also know that specific tunnels have specific width, length, and height, and you can't force something like a train to do your will especially in engineering, because it can put peoples lives at risk.

[Tokkemon]

You really want to add more traffic to Penn Station? Penn Station has 21 tracks for NJ Transit, Amtrak, and LIRR, and no access to Midtown East, Union Square, Queens, etc. Hoboken Terminal has 18 tracks for just NJ Transit and happens to be located right on the water. Where do you think there is more room for expansion?

 

Penn Station is not to full capacity, only the tunnels are. Many tracks in the NJT concourse are often sitting unused. Perhaps they should just reduce the layups to 5 minutes instead of 10 minutes. That would free up an incredible amount of platform space.

[matthewhandler]

In reality the estimation for the extension to Secaucus back in November was $5 billion. If you send it through Hoboken and add more stations to the entire route including a 3 track configuration line from 23rd Street, Manhattan-Secaucus via Hoboken it would be as expensive as ARC itself, and if there are delays and construction equipment failures it might be even more expensive. In total this might cost somewhere between $11-13 billion dollars. The US Government might be willing to give more then $3 billion dollars if this goes through, but at most I did say the US Government would only give somewhere between $5-6 billion. The other half would be coming out of our pockets, because it would be constructed and funded by the Port Authority which uses our tax dollars.

 

Matthew again I told you only the , would go on to NJ if this goes through I don't want to hear anything else about the , and for the millionth time if this happens the wouldn't got directly to Hoboken Terminal. A train can't just shoot out a tunnel and then stop. Tunnels have approaches just like a bridge that's why Vanshnookenraggen drew his plan like that instead of turning it into something like yours. Even if the branches off of Manhattan from 23rd Street it would still have to stop at 4th Street, Hoboken. That station could be made a local station. The next station would be Hoboken Terminal and that could be an express station, and from there people would use a passageway (transfer) to go to the bus depot, the HBLR, and PATH. From there the , would continue on to go all the way to Secaucus making local and express stops.

 

Matthew stop pushing on this. If you ever studied basic engineering (I've studied on the subject) you know that it's impossible to have a station at a tunnels approach, and you can't put a station directly after running a train through the tunnel. You would also know that specific tunnels have specific width, length, and height, and you can't force something like a train to do your will especially in engineering, because it can put peoples lives at risk.

 

Finally you make a decent point. Engineering. Are you actually 17 though? Because if so I don't know why I should take you seriously. The actual arrangement of the tunnel with the terminal would be a challenge. But not so much so that the whole idea should be discarded. In terms of approach, the 7 Train runs around 60 feet below ground from Times Square onward. The depth of the Hudson between Hoboken and 14th Street is 50 feet below sea level at a maximum, with average depths around 45 feet at low tide. So unlike a traffic tunnel, which has to dip from at grade to below the river bed, the 7 train extension would likely not have to dip at all. Coming back into Hoboken, again, no need to rise to 20 feet below or at grade, like the NJ Transit lines. There could simply be escalator connections like what's being built in Grand Central for East Side Access, which is much deeper than a 7 train extension would have to be.

 

As for your point about cost, I don't know where you think that a shorter tunnel, with less obstacles, and less stations, would cost twice as much. You are completely backwards in that regard.

 

As for the L train, you have yet to find a legitimate reason why perhaps in a Phase 2, a connection cannot be made in Manhattan to the 7 train tunnel and eventually to a dual island platform in Hoboken. Not a dual level platform like at Queensboro Plaza, but a dual island platform like any normal express stop in the system.

 

Lastly, sending a 7 train extension across 23rd street and turning in towards Hoboken, traveling south bound to an eventual perpendicular crossing with the Hoboken Yards, not the Terminal, doesn't make sense. Then you cut off all opportunity to connect to the existing rail infrastructure. This means more tunneling, and more costs. I enjoy looking at Vanschnook's maps, I think they are similar to when Robert Moses would look at the metro area's highways and he would draw lines to tie up missing links. But he didn't take into consideration the cost, both monetary and in terms of construction obstacles. Vanschnook's Secaucus/Hoboken plan would likely be endlessly more expensive than the ARC tunnel or a simple 7 extension to Secaucus. I was personally proposing something that would counter a simple 7 extension to Secaucus, because personally I don't see the benefit of extending the 7 to Secaucus when a 7 extension to Hoboken Terminal would be less expensive and connect to more lines.

[Kamen Rider]

Please, watch the Nazi Banksters Crimes Ripple Effect at http://jforjustice.co.uk/banksters

[BJSm]

 

1) Why are you insistent on having the subway go to Secaucus? What would be accomplished by going to Secaucus that wouldn't already be accomplished by having a link at Hoboken Terminal?

 

 

All NJT trains coming from the north terminate at Secaucus (and cannot go on to Hoboken or Penn Station because of the lack of connections and congestion). Only NJT trains coming from the south reach Hoboken, and even then a good chunk bypass Hoboken and head to Penn Station (there is no NJT track from Hoboken to Penn Station).

 

So a connection at Secaucus serves all NJT trains, including the ones coming from the major commuting communities in Bergen and Passaic Counties while the connection at Hoboken only serves some NJT trains and still requires a lot of people to transfer at Secaucus--the whole problem the extension is meant to alleviate as there is currently a crush of trains coming out of Secaucus headed to Hoboken and Penn Station.

 

It might not be worth it anyway, but there is good reason why a connection at Secaucus is much better than one at Hoboken.

[matthewhandler]

All NJT trains coming from the north terminate at Secaucus (and cannot go on to Hoboken or Penn Station because of the lack of connections and congestion). Only NJT trains coming from the south reach Hoboken, and even then a good chunk bypass Hoboken and head to Penn Station (there is no NJT track from Hoboken to Penn Station).

 

So a connection at Secaucus serves all NJT trains, including the ones coming from the major commuting communities in Bergen and Passaic Counties while the connection at Hoboken only serves some NJT trains and still requires a lot of people to transfer at Secaucus--the whole problem the extension is meant to alleviate as there is currently a crush of trains coming out of Secaucus headed to Hoboken and Penn Station.

 

It might not be worth it anyway, but there is good reason why a connection at Secaucus is much better than one at Hoboken.

 

You're just wrong.

 

Secaucus Junction services:

1. Main Line

2. Bergen County Line

3. Montclair Boonton Line

4. Morristown Line

5. Meadowlands Extension

6. North East Corridor Line

7. North Jersey Coast Line

8. Pascack Valley Line

9. Port Jervis Line

 

Hoboken Terminal services:

1. Main Line

2. Bergen County Line

3. Montclair Boonton Line

4. Morristown Line

5. Meadowlands Extension

6. Gladstone Branch

7. North Jersey Coast Line

8. Pascack Valley Line

9. Port Jervis Line

10. Hoboken-Tonnelle HBLR

11. Hoboken-22nd Street HBLR

12. Hoboken-33rd Street PATH

13. Hoboken-WTC PATH

14. Journal Square-33rd Street PATH (nights and weekends)

 

 

 

You have your facts just plain wrong. Check out Rich E. Green's maps at: http://www.richegreen.com/ if you want to check up on what lines go where and with what connections.

 

The Secaucus Junction was a complete waste of money to begin with. Anyone coming from the Bergen, Main, or Port Jervis Line knows what a hassle it is to have to add 15 minutes to your trip everyday because of the Secaucus transfer. And that's if trains arrive on time, which, lets face it, its NJ transit, they're never on time. There's nothing nice anywhere close to Secaucus Junction, no local transit, not even good parking. The ARC tunnel at least made sense since it would have gone directly into Penn. But if we are talking about extending the 7, why in the world would you ever spend that much money to go to Secaucus, when Hoboken is closer, and has far more connections. Let alone 10 more tracks to work with and location along the growing Jersey waterfront.

[Roadcruiser1]

BJSM the only reason why I raised the price was Bloomberg, and his crew proposed to extend the to Secaucus, and only Secaucus for $5-6 billion. He doesn't want to put any stations in between so I think it isn't worth the cost. Plus Secaucus is something that few New Yorkers would go to except for the New Meadowland Stadium. To solve this problem from this direct route without any stations in between I suggest another option.

 

In my proposal the , is extended to 23rd Street, Manhattan along with the which would create a transfer point between them. Then the , would turn away into a tunnel under the Hudson to Hoboken and run to 10th Street in Hoboken. From there it would run on down to Hoboken Terminal with a station in between, and it would keep going as a three track line all the way to Journal Square in Hoboken where it would turn north to Union City then turn west to Secaucus. Union City and Hoboken are where most New Yorkers want to go with express and local stations served by the , and .

 

Once you do this you would have a higher ridership rate, and a lot of people would use this service from both NJ, and NY. Which is more viable for the cost.

[Joel Up Front]

This is no better than a "fantasy map" thread.

[Tokkemon]

The Secaucus Junction was a complete waste of money to begin with. Anyone coming from the Bergen, Main, or Port Jervis Line knows what a hassle it is to have to add 15 minutes to your trip everyday because of the Secaucus transfer. And that's if trains arrive on time, which, lets face it, its NJ transit, they're never on time. There's nothing nice anywhere close to Secaucus Junction, no local transit, not even good parking. The ARC tunnel at least made sense since it would have gone directly into Penn. But if we are talking about extending the 7, why in the world would you ever spend that much money to go to Secaucus, when Hoboken is closer, and has far more connections. Let alone 10 more tracks to work with and location along the growing Jersey waterfront.

 

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Remember the days that there WAS no Secaucus Junction? Folks had to travel through Hoboken and into downtown via the PATH. What sense does that make when everyone is trying to get into Midtown? That's where the majority jobs are post-9/11.

[matthewhandler]

This is no better than a "fantasy map" thread.

 

Nothing like reading a really well thought out substantive response.

[matthewhandler]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Remember the days that there WAS no Secaucus Junction? Folks had to travel through Hoboken and into downtown via the PATH. What sense does that make when everyone is trying to get into Midtown? That's where the majority jobs are post-9/11.

 

You're supporting my position unintentionally. The problem was with a lack of a Midtown connection from Hoboken. Mainly for the Main, Bergen, and Port Jervis Lines, which all terminate in Hoboken, and do not terminate at Penn Station. Had there been a subway link to the or all along in Hoboken, the Secaucus Junction would have been a pretty big waste of money because commuters wouldn't be stuck in Hoboken with no way to get to certain points in Midtown. They would have been able to access Times Square, Bryant Park, and Grand Central, all from Hoboken Terminal.

[CenSin]

This is no better than a "fantasy map" thread.

It's now a "my fantasy versus your fantasy" thread. I see a lot of obvious inaccuracies and lack of research in the posts.

[Roadcruiser1]

No one here better make any mention of dual platforms or anything like that. Either the , or the , because they will never run together. The cars are also way too different. Have the as a bi directional express train in NJ and the as a local in NJ and that would seal the deal there is no need for anything else.

[matthewhandler]

It's now a "my fantasy versus your fantasy" thread. I see a lot of obvious inaccuracies and lack of research in the posts.

 

 

Well I appreciate the constructive criticism and help with fixing these "obvious inaccuracies and lack of research" sir senior member. Good to know there's no snobbishness in the oh so sacred NYC Transit Forum.

 

Next time if you want to perhaps add to the conversation, you're welcome to join. If not, why not spare your keystrokes and just move on.

 

B)

[matthewhandler]

No one here better make any mention of dual platforms or anything like that. Either the , or the , because they will never run together. The cars are also way too different. Have the as a bi directional express train in NJ and the as a local in NJ and that would seal the deal there is no need for anything else.

 

You may want to run this post by CenSin. He's felt the need to insert his higher knowledge of the transit systems of NYC and NJ into our conversation... oh wait, no, all he did was make a wise ass comment.

[CenSin]

You may want to run this post by CenSin. He's felt the need to insert his higher knowledge of the transit systems of NYC and NJ into our conversation... oh wait, no, all he did was make a wise ass comment.

I didn't point out which ones, but you may read the previous posts by other members if you wish. I just get tired of seeing people repeat the same mistakes after another member has provided corrections. And this higher knowledge was gained in the course of reading this thread and the comments provided by the said members.

[matthewhandler]

I didn't point out which ones, but you may read the previous posts by other members if you wish. I just get tired of seeing people repeat the same mistakes after another member has provided corrections. And this higher knowledge was gained in the course of reading this thread and the comments provided by the said members.

 

Thanks again for nothing. You truly have been a beneficial addition to this thread. If only I had learned from your higher knowledge, I would have simply posted: "7 Train to Hoboken.... it aint happening, please do not respond, conversation is pointless."

[Kamen Rider]

Please, watch the Nazi Banksters Crimes Ripple Effect at http://jforjustice.co.uk/banksters

[B35 via Church]

Thanks again for nothing. You truly have been a beneficial addition to this thread. If only I had learned from your higher knowledge, I would have simply posted: "7 Train to Hoboken.... it aint happening, please do not respond, conversation is pointless."

 

At least that stance would have been a correct one.

[CenSin]

Thanks again for nothing. You truly have been a beneficial addition to this thread. If only I had learned from your higher knowledge, I would have simply posted: "7 Train to Hoboken.... it aint happening, please do not respond, conversation is pointless."

A post that is purely and overly sarcastic and contemptuous is truly nothing. The least you could do was use the sarcasm to entertain people (even if it were at my expense).

 

With that said, I didn't attack your concept (which is good), but the fact that you push your agenda too zealously ignoring the criticisms and corrections provided. …and it's not just you.

[matthewhandler]

attack of the senior members... thank you again for all your help, all I ask, is if you're going to join a conversation, that has, up til this point, been focused largely on the substance of the proposals out there, at least add to the conversation, instead of sticking your nose up at it. If there's a problem with something one of us normal members posted, in terms of accuracy, feasibility, I'd be delighted to hear your thoughts. But the snarky comments are a waste of everyone's time. Me and Mr. Roadcruiser have been going back and forth about this for a while, and I love it. He disagrees with everything I say, but there in lies the fun of these forums. Comments like those from CenSin are self-serving elitist garbage. Post your snobbishness somewhere else. Or contribute to the conversation. Again, the invitation for the "obvious inaccuracies and lack of research" is still open.

[Kamen Rider]

Please, watch the Nazi Banksters Crimes Ripple Effect at http://jforjustice.co.uk/banksters

[matthewhandler]

It's not attack of the senior members, it's attack of the people who actually know what they are talking about!

 

You are not the first person to show up with an idea and get upset when we start shooting holes in it.

 

what's next on your agenda, wander into CERN and start giving a nuclear physics lecture?

 

 

1) if you were actually shooting holes in it, I'd be open to hear the criticisms, as I have been, and I have responded to such criticisms. Trust me, I'm aware of the obstacles to the proposal I have put forth. Many of these obstacles were highlighted in my initial post! And I'm sorry if I thought your comments on the differences between the trains' trip valves was missing the point, but if you think that combing services between the lines in a multi-billion dollar project is going to come down to which side the trip valve happens to lie on the current rail fleet, you're stuck on minutia.

 

2) my problem with the senior members is not with you as much as it with someone whose first post was as snobbish as it was useless. I never claimed to be an expert. But apparently if you and your fellow senior members are claiming to be experts, engineers, urban planners, whatever you are, please, enlighten me. Say something of substance.

 

3) seriously? on a NYC Transit Forum? how old are you guys?