Savino calls for subway, rail links for Staten Island with floating $3B

[CenSin]

The problem here is that the SI Ferry would be faster (not to mention cheaper ) than the Subway. This is an unacceptable drawback to the incredible cost of even building a Brooklyn-SI tunnel.

Replace service at all the river crossings with ferries and see how that goes. It's a crazy idea, but think about all the hassle of transferring! And remember that the idea is to bring mass transportation to Staten Island. A bridge full of cars doesn't exactly move much people mass.

 

Also, for point 5, I meant to contrast it with building light rail in Staten Island. If you build a good light rail network in Staten Island and you decide to build a subway connection later, there is nothing to connect it to. On the other hand, by sending a cheaper line from Brooklyn to allow the subway to establish a foothold, you can spur subway expansion. When money is there to link Manhattan to Staten Island, there will be a well-connected system to link it to.

 

So?. There are demands for a Bronx-Queens line. Not everyone has an automobile. You can't have people ride in a circle to work. A Bronx-Queens Line would be the same as the Staten Island-Brooklyn Line. Just because you have a car doesn't mean a person that works have one.

The only push for such a link that I know of was bundled with the TriboroRX plan, and that's another topic altogether.

 

@CenSin I was actually thinking of connecting the BMT line to whatever finally gets built at the St George Ferry terminal. West Shore, light rail or bus and the SIRT which is already there. In other words, heavy rail-heavy rail and other options. Use the existing railroad trackage south of 59th St, Brooklyn and build a tunnel ala the 63rd St LIRR subway combo. Kill 2 birds with one stone if feasible.

Whatever option brings the most benefit at the cheapest cost is probably the best option. I don't know what that option may be, but it seems that the 4 Avenue line is very flexible on the topic of expansion.

[SI Subway]

Why not just extend the North Shore Line to Newark Airport. That is an existing airport, and is way closer then JFK.

 

Why do you need to connect any line to any airport? As has been said many times in this thread, Staten Islanders want Manhattan. I know from experience. Sure, you could extend the North Shore Line into Newark Airport, but that should not be the primary goal. No offense Roadcruiser, but simply extending the NSL to Newark will not do anything whatsoever except blow $3 billion. Manhattan should come first.

 

Even though we already dismissed the idea for a tunnel under NY Harbour, I just want to say one more reason why not to. SI's bedrock is extremely hard, and it would be impossible to dig anything underground, which a tunnel from Manhattan should require.

 

My idea is to extend the into New Jersey alongside the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail, and end the along Richmond Avenue. This way, Staten Island and NJ residents would have access to several major transfer stations along 42nd street, and make one transfer (maybe 2) instead of 3.

 

By the way, I am a long-time-reader-first-time-poster for the forums. A "hi" would be nice.

[Roadcruiser1]

The NJT tracks don't use third rail. They use overhead canaries. So no it won't work. Not to mention the is already a long route and if it's extended to Staten Island via NJ the line would be practically redundant.

[SI Subway]

The NJT tracks don't use third rail. They use overhead canaries. So no it won't work.

 

I said that the would go alongside the HBLR, not that they would use the same tracks, or the same stations for that matter. I was using the HBLR as a refrence point to show which direction it was going.

 

And about the length, the could be made an express in NJ, or a new 8 line could be created to serve express, and terminate at a spot along the Lexington line. My point was getting SIers to 42nd street for transfer purposes. No need to get angry with me over specifics.

 

Again, I mean no offense to your ideas, Roadcruiser. Actually, I am a longtime admirer of your posts. But everyone has his/her own opinion.

[Roadcruiser1]

I am not angry though just trying to prove a point at an engineering standpoint. Sorry if I sound like I was though. Also the light rail extension from the West Shore would be going to Hoboken Terminal where people could transfer to a NJT train to 42nd Street so a subway connection would be redundant.

[SI Subway]

Why spend hours planning routes that will never happen? Because they sound like a good idea? Because maybe those neighborhoods could use more service and its mental masturbation to draw a line on a map where you can pretend you gave it to them?

 

Fantasy maps are fun because they help to spread ideas. For example, say someone has an idea for a line on Utica Avenue. How can he show a way that this line can be implimented properly with the rest of the system? With a fantasy map of course. It is interesting to see how people can mix and match their own ideas with those of other people to create an ideal . Who knows, the may even be watching this site when they have built up enough money, looking for new and exiting ideas from fantasy maps. :eek:

 

And please keep your posts PG-13, at least. No one wants to hear about what you said in your last sentance. :tdown:

[SI Subway]

I am not angry though just trying to prove a point at an engineering standpoint. Sorry if I sound like I was though. Also the light rail extension from the West Shore would be going to Hoboken Terminal where people could transfer to a NJT train to 42nd Street so a subway connection would be redundant.

 

Thanks. I am sorry if i sounded rough too. And I believe that the NJT goes to 34th, and at one station. The would go along the whole of 42nd street, giving more transfer options for manhattan than the NJT. i.e, you can't get to the Lexington Line from the NJT, but you can with the That was my thinking...

[Roadcruiser1]

You surely haven't forgotten that at Hoboken people could board a Secaucus bound train and transfer to a 42nd street bound train there too.

[Tokkemon]

You surely haven't forgotten that at Hoboken people could board a Secaucus bound train and transfer to a 42nd street bound train there too.

 

At a $4.00 premium. No thanks!

[SI Subway]

You surely haven't forgotten that at Hoboken people could board a Secaucus bound train and transfer to a 42nd street bound train there too.

 

True, but that requires, if you're travelling from Richmond Rd., a total of 4 transfers to get to, say, 125th street. A train is a 2 seat ride for such an endeavour

[SI Subway]

Additionally, you said that the NJT has a stop at 42nd street, which it does not.

[IntExp]

Extending the to Staten Island via New Jersey is useless.

 

I ride the everyday to get to and from school. I've riden it my entire life, so I know it pretty well. The reason I say this because number one, the has no business in extending the subway to NJ. That's we have these great things called PATH, and NJ Transit. If anything, they should extend it downward to Chelsea, the Village and maybe even downtown. (Probably not gonna happen because of NIBYISM, financial constraints, etc). Second, they can't even take care some of the stations in Queens properly. How would they be able to do son in Jersey? Third, they already have their hands full with the Steinway Tube and the installation of CBTC, and a better idea would be to extend the train from South Ferry, under NY Harbor, and into Staten Island, or create a light rail network to Bay Ridge, Brooklyn for the . (Or to run the SI Ferry more frequently and/or expand +SBS+ more quickly in SI) And lastly, having the go alongside HBLR will be impractical, and NJ won't allow it to happen (just look at the ARC Tunnel).

[Roadcruiser1]

Extending the would cost billions of dollars, and take at least a decade or more to build, and it wouldn't be compatible with the SIR, because the SIR uses B division standards. It would also exclude a extension. Extending the is impossible, because of the length of the . The only thing I can see in the future is light rail which is the only mass transit idea that can even cross the Verrazano Narrows Bridge, and you can't build the subway there, because all the Staten Islanders I talked to outside of the forums rejects the subway as a mean of mass transit. It has something to do with their belief that the Subway still has a lot of crime.

[SI Subway]

The reason I say this because number one, the has no business in extending the subway to NJ. That's we have these great things called PATH, and NJ Transit.

 

If the has no business in extending the subway to NJ, then why are PATH and (NJT) able to extend their service to NYC? Besides, the already has Metro-North lines in CT and NJ. Why not subway, too?

 

About your other options, the or would be impossible to send to Staten Island, because a tunnel would be five long miles of nothingness, let alone the sheer cost of it. The would also be impractical, because a train cannot be extended from 95th street straight to SI. There's not enough room.

 

The reason I want to send the to NJ is because it is the most feasible and practical method of getting to Staten Island. In fact, the could even go superexpress between Hoboken and SI. NJ is not the main point, it is merely a connection between SI and the rest of New York City, primarilly Manhattan.

 

And did I say the would go down Richmond Rd. before? :confused: I meant Richmond Ave.

[SI Subway]

Extending the would cost billions of dollars, and take at least a decade or more to build, and it wouldn't be compatible with the SIR, because the SIR uses B division standards. It would also exclude a extension. .

 

I said that the would go down Richmond Ave, not the SIR. While I agree that light rail would be a good short-term option for SI, it would not intergrate properly with the rest of the subway system. Besides, didn't you have a map in another thread that showed your light rail going the same route as my , at least in NJ and SI?

 

About SIers rejecting the subway, I have family that live in SI, and none of them reject subway transport. In fact, they embrace the in Manhattan after the ferry ride.

[Roadcruiser1]

That map features the proposed West Shore Light Rail which is basically an extension of the Hudson Bergen Light Rail from 8th Street across the Bayonne Bridge which is a serious proposal. Also you don't really need the subway. You just need high speed ferries to replace the current ferries running on the Staten Island Ferry, and add more destinations. That would require pier extensions sure, and much more ferries, but it certain well work better as these new ferries can travel at 70 knots. That's about 80 MPH. The new destinations would be

 

-Hoboken Terminal

-West Midtown Ferry Terminal

-South Ferry Terminal

-Coney Island Terminal

-Fulton Pier

& A new 42nd Street Terminal near the Grand Central Station.

[SI Subway]

That map features the proposed West Shore Light Rail which is basically an extension of the Hudson Bergen Light Rail from 8th Street across the Bayonne Bridge which is a serious proposal.

 

And the would be the same, except subway instead of light rail. I'm not farmiliar with the Bayonne Bridge, so the subway may not go directly across it, but use a new bridge in the same location.

[Roadcruiser1]

The is already pretty long, and the NJT is a certified railroad. Just like the MNRR it can leave city boundaries. Something like extending the is something I am seriously uncertain about.

[SI Subway]

The is already pretty long, and the NJT is a certified railroad. Just like the MNRR it can leave city boundaries. Something like extending the is something I am seriously uncertain about.

 

Okay, I hear you there. Maybe a new (8) line would be created to serve the area I was talking about, and end somewhere on the Lexington line, possibly 125th street. The point is getting Staten Islanders to 42nd street, where there are abundant transfer options.

[Roadcruiser1]

That could easily be implemented with a high speed ferry as I have had mentioned going at 80 MPH. The distance between St. George, and Grand Central is only 19 miles. A ride on the ferry there would take only several minutes.

[SI Subway]

That could easily be implemented with a high speed ferry as I have had mentioned going at 80 MPH. The distance between St. George, and Grand Central is only 19 miles. A ride on the ferry there would take only several minutes.

 

Again, I hear you. But would you rather transfer at South Ferry-Whitehall St., where there are 2 trains, or somewhere along 42nd street, where there are 13 (including the SAS, if it is ever built.)

[Roadcruiser1]

The thing is there are multiple destinations. The Ferry Terminal would be expanded to increase the speed of service and to take down the wait time, but not just that it would open up many new routes. Thus people would have multiple destinations to choose from.

[SI Subway]

But then would it be the "Staten Island Ferry"?

Besides, by expanding the ferry to the extent you're talking about, you are contradictoring your own light rail plans. :eek:

[Roadcruiser1]

Not really. There are people that would need to get off the island in other ways, and not everyone has access to the Ferry.

[SI Subway]

Not really. There are people that would need to get off the island in other ways, and not everyone has access to the Ferry.

 

AHA!!! Exactly my point! The 70(8) would serve the West Shore, which the SIR and ferry don't.