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East New York

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1 hour ago, R32 3838 said:

The new cbtc will be different from what we have now. It won't have ato so they can still use smee until they retire. Plus there's another big issue, the R142's. They don't even know how are they gonna put cbtc in them since bombardier doesn't want no part of that. The remaining R142A's are getting converted like the R188's

Do we know that? I thought they established a CBTC standard so that literally anybody could supply it.

IIRC, aren't all NTTs CBTC-compatible, and doesn't that just mean there's some storage space somewhere for CBTC equipment?

Edited by bobtehpanda
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9 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

Do we know that? I thought they established a CBTC standard so that literally anybody could supply it.

IIRC, aren't all NTTs CBTC-compatible, and doesn't that just mean there's some storage space somewhere for CBTC equipment?

The R142/As don't have storage space for CBTC equipment since that's where the R143/160/179 has the flag and MTA logo on the bonnet, and on the R142/As that's a window, hence the gigantic cabinet on the right hand side of an R188.

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14 hours ago, RR503 said:

I never said our trade policies have failed us -- they unquestionably have. I'm just saying that we write off too much to their failure, while the underlying causes of deindustrialization/underemployment are much more complicated. 

This is a perfect example of something that's blamed on outsourcing losses but actually has little to do with them. Many economists agree that the erosion of wage growth has much, much more to do with the erosion of workers' collective bargaining/organizing power than it has to do with the collapse of any single sector. Keep in mind that industrial jobs were once the Walmart-jobs -- reserved for those who had no other option. They were only made so middle-class through years of really union struggle. Service workers never benefited from that whatsoever, and have thus been made to live off of pittances -- especially in the big-box era. Maybe instead of throwing time and money at dying industries like coal, we should be addressing the issues in their replacements. I don't think I need to remind you that the total employment of the entire coal industry and Kmart are approximately equal. 

Is this welfare I'm hearing, VG8? How the mighty have fallen! I guess we can't give the poor Metrocards and food stamps, but when it's time to shell out the tax dollars so Joe from Hornell can keep his job, by all means... 

Jokes aside, I really think (as bob has correctly pointed out) industrial welfare is a waste of our time. Whatever we may do to give those towns a goody bag of downstate riches, they remain a separate world by merit of topography. Circling back to transportation, really the only way to exploit that area's potential is to link it solidly with downstate via public transit. Whatever we may say about upstate being an industrial backwater, it actually harbors quite a few institutions that could be the foundation of a new regional economy -- if given better access to the social/intellectual/economic capital of downstate. If one could take a cheatrain to the SUNY campuses in the Southern Tier, or to URochester, or to Skidmore, or to ______ and expect to be there in a short period of time not subject to the slow-motion meltdown that is CSX, then you may actually see real investment moving to those areas -- think outsourcing jobs that can't be done reliably in the high-cost downstate environment. 

Well answer me this... If you're against protectionism, tell me how it's any better to have people depending on Walmart jobs to make ends meet while still collecting welfare to get by? You see I don't have an issue with some jobs being outsourced. The issue I have is they aren't being replaced with anything but low paying service jobs.  Supposedly Americans would be re-trained to obtain other skills so that they could advance themselves and obtain higher paying jobs.  Well that hasn't really happened, and now even the higher paying jobs are under siege in this country.  Every field that I've worked in, we've always had to be mindful of the ol' mighty Chinese invasion taking over and depressing earnings, so while I haven't necessarily been directly impacted, I am indeed aware of the negative impact that outsourcing has on so many industries.

I think it's great to talk hypothetically, but unfortunately, that's all we've been doing while good paying jobs go overseas, and ultimately, if people aren't earning good wages to pay their share in taxes, it's a waste of time.  The Made in NY stipulation is a band aid solution, no question, but it seems as if there are no other solutions on the table so we here in downstate aren't paying all of the taxes for upstate.

15 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

This kind of protectionism actually hurts upstate in the long run. Subsidizing companies in this manner is basically a runaround way of putting them on the dole, and as a result, all of these upstate towns have gotten lazy and don't actually look for ways to revitalize themselves. I mean, Pittsburgh used to be a steel town, and now they've diversified into many different sectors because nobody was there to prop them up. 

These railroad companies do great, because they make products that other people want to buy. No one's going to buy a subsidized product if it still doesn't work. The last passenger railcar companies in the US folded because they got sued into the ground for shoddy work. Compare that to Boeing, a company that has to deal with subsidized competition that at least makes good products.

Honestly, everyone would be better off if we split the state in two or three, but that's not going to happen, so we're going to keep singing this song and dance and pretending everyone's better off.

You still haven't answered my question of what are we replacing those manufacturing jobs with if we're going to argue that they should indeed be outsourced?  For years elected officials have said, it's totally fine to outsource some jobs because folks will be trained to do other things.  Well the only thing they're doing are low paying service jobs.  I think it's funny how you are so for outsourcing when you yourself have been negatively impacted and forced to leave the region because of high cost of living here and so many low paying jobs.  A bit ironic...  

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8
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19 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I'm not making things simple at all.  All I'm saying is we've been outsourcing our jobs for years now and why is that you nor bob nor anyone else wants to admit that it's failed us miserably? We've had stagnant wages in this country for years now while everything else goes through the roof.  Are you trying to tell me that the plethora of low paying service jobs makes sense because that's precisely what we've been replacing such jobs with over the last 20+ years and everyone just pretends like it's ok. 

It matters and it hurts us Americans.   We live in America, and I don't understand the anti-American sentiment about making things here in America where we live for once. It's crazy.  The Made in NY stipulation makes a lot of sense.  We're spending BILLIONS of dollars for downstate and allowing for jobs to be created upstate and maintained there.  Does it cost us a bit more? Sure, but it benefits the entire region (both upstate and downstate).  If you want to yell that outsourcing makes sense, be prepared to tell me what's replacing those jobs aside from low paying service jobs because that's what has mainly been coming here.  If you don't work in tech, medical or finance, God help you because those are the three main sectors that are growing.  That and the film industry.  There's only so many of those jobs, so we need to manufacture something here.    

The factor driving this Country is Capitalism plain and simple there's a healthy dose of Socialism mixed in there as well whether we like to admit it or not.  I outsource work from time to time. But why shouldn't I have that option if I can find better talent somewhere else? It's my Business I started it my obligation to my Country is taxes in which I pay.  I have core team here I employ. But what if the pieces I needed something I can't find in the US? What if the process and skill aren't here? Can't I look elsewhere? The problem with Americans sometimes is that there's too much arrogance too comfortable feeling like we're on top even if that isn't true. I do a bit of business in Europe this is a common perception of the US. I can't count the amount of time people Think I'm Canadian or are in shock im American. I've literally had people tell me your smart for an American how do you take that? The only possible way they can process that is the fact I'm from New York. Then they'll nod and say okay.. in Tech and from New York or the Valley.  My point is that there are places in the world that have way better quality in Manufacturing and production. As a Business owner, why shouldn't I be able to get what I deem is the best?  You want me to ditch my Audi for a Ford because it's American? Anyways a lot of these companies already have a base of operation established here in USA makes more sense from a financial standpoint .  I dont think it's Anti American but I think people just know Americans aren't pushing out the best quality. The people that travel and move around know this.  If you havent traveled outside the bubble what do you have to compare? Can't-miss what you've never had. With that said I can see why some people might see that as anti-American.

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7 minutes ago, RailRunRob said:

The factor driving this Country is Capitalism plain and simple there's a healthy dose of Socialism mixed in there as well whether we like to admit it or not.  I outsource work from time to time. But why shouldn't I have that option if I can find better talent somewhere else? It's my Business I started it my obligation to my Country is taxes in which I pay.  I have core team here I employ. But what if the pieces I needed something I can't find in the US? What if the process and skill aren't here? Can't I look elsewhere? The problem with Americans sometimes is that there's too much arrogance too comfortable feeling like we're on top even if that isn't true. I do a bit of business in Europe this is a common perception of the US. I can't count the amount of time people Think I'm Canadian or are in shock im American. I've literally had people tell me your smart for an American how do you take that? The only possible way they can process that is the fact I'm from New York. Then they'll nod and say okay.. in Tech and from New York or the Valley.  My point is that there are places in the world that have way better quality in Manufacturing and production. As a Business owner, why shouldn't I be able to get what I deem is the best?  You want me to ditch my Audi for a Ford because it's an American? Anyways a lot of these companies already have a base of operation established here in USA makes more sense from a financial standpoint .  I dont think it's Anti American but I think people just know Americans aren't pushing out the best quality. The people that travel and move around know this.  If you havent traveled outside the bubble what do you have to compare? Can't-miss what you've never had. With that said I can see why some people might see that as anti-American.

You're a business owner and I run a department.  We obviously both work in industries where there's competition, and outsourcing does indeed affect your business just as it impacts the department that I run. The owner that I work for and I both agree on using quality to complete projects and run the department.  That said, we don't believe in outsourcing using cheap labor to do so.  We feel as if we have a moral obligation to as a small business to hire American and use Americans where possible and we sell that difference in quality to our customers.  In your case, you're in tech.  I get your concerns and complaints, but at the same time, I take issue with you implying that they're aren't talented Americans here that can do the work.  That's been a BS line used far too long in this country and one that I simply won't accept as the reason why you have to outsource. 

You're one that talks about how you're always helping youth here in the States to do this and that, and yet you're telling me that you're forced to outsource? I don't buy that.  Just come out and say that you like to increase your bottom line by using cheap labor.  It's fine if that's the case, but let's not BS each other here with this there aren't Americans that can do XYZ.  We have plenty of talented people in this country that are more than capable if given the opportunity. As you said, we are driven by profits in this country, and there's nothing wrong with that.  I run a department also driven by profits, but at the same time, we try to strike a balance between profits and maintaining quality as well.  In the tech sector, outsourcing unfortunately is just part of doing business, so it's all about squeezing out every nickel and dime of savings.

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21 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

moral obligation

How does fit into the context of Capitalism? Nobody's ever played by these rules on the highest levels since the conception of this nation. That's what they tell the folks lower down the line along with "If you work hard you'll get your chance." Working Class dreams it's a nice concept tho and would work if everyone played by the rules. $$$

 

21 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

You're one that talks about how you're always helping youth here in the States

Yes, By giving them the tools to be Competitive. Critical thinking, Application, and even entrepreneurship. Set free and build the world you want and hope to see it's America you don't like it start your own.

 

21 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

We have plenty of talented people in this country that are more than capable if given the opportunity.

Not saying we don't. There are other factors at play.. Maybe they're working for someone else? Apple Google. Maybe I can't find them? Can't afford them? In any case, I need to move freely to find and fill the roles I need and if that's not in the US so be it.  I love to do that without every Debbie Downer hitting me with that's Anti US line. In hiring anyone im looking at two things? How is this person making my life easier? And second how is this person helping my bottom line? So your saying I should overlook my golden rules and hire just there based here in the US? And pay this person twice as much for same or lower quality work than the guy/gal from where else? Why?

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8 minutes ago, RailRunRob said:

How does fit into the context of Capitalism? Nobody's ever played by these rules on the highest levels since the conception of this nation. That's what they tell the folks lower down the line along with "If you work hard you'll get your chance." Working Class dreams it's a nice concept tho and would work if everyone played by the rules. $$$

 

Yes, By giving them the tools to be Competitive. Critical thinking, Application, and even entrepreneurship. Set free and build the world you want and hope to see it's America you don't like it start your own.

 

Not saying we don't. There are other factors at play.. Maybe they're working for someone else? Apple Google. Maybe I can't find them? Can't afford them? In any case, I need to move freely to find and fill the roles I need and if that's not in the US so be it.  I love to do that without every Debbie Downer hitting me with that's Anti US line. In hiring anyone im looking at two things? How is this person making my life easier? And second how is this person helping my bottom line? So your saying I should overlook my golden rules and hire just there based here in the US? And pay this person twice as much for same or lower quality work than the guy/gal from where else? Why?

You can run your business as you see fit, but I know for a fact that there are plenty of small businesses that have set up shop to hire American and do business HERE, and they do so because they want to help their community and this country grow and they're still meeting their bottom line.  If you don't believe that you have some moral obligation to make the community that you work in better then that's on you, but lots of people are supporting these sorts of start-ups.  In other words, you're trying to tell me that in a capitalist "cut-throat" society, that achieving both goals isn't doable or even feasible.  We'll have to disagree on that one.  I could certainly outsource my projects to China, rake in the profits, and give my clients absolute garbage as the end product, but as I said, we care about quality here, so we work with vendors who are local and willing to do business with us to make things work for all parties. The customers are happy with the quality, the vendors are happy because we provide constant business their way, and we're happy because we're meeting our bottom line while still providing quality at competitive prices.  

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40 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

You can run your business as you see fit, but I know for a fact that there are plenty of small businesses that have set up shop to hire American and do business HERE, and they do so because they want to help their community and this country grow and they're still meeting their bottom line.  If you don't believe that you have some moral obligation to make the community that you work in better then that's on you, but lots of people are supporting these sorts of start-ups.  In other words, you're trying to tell me that in a capitalist "cut-throat" society, that achieving both goals isn't doable or even feasible.  We'll have to disagree on that one.  I could certainly outsource my projects to China, rake in the profits, and give my clients absolute garbage as the end product, but as I said, we care about quality here, so we work with vendors who are local and willing to do business with us to make things work for all parties. The customers are happy with the quality, the vendors are happy because we provide constant business their way, and we're happy because we're meeting our bottom line while still providing quality at competitive prices.  

Indeed everybody should run there's how they feel fit. My point is in certain markets you should be able to pick from your best options. Tech and Manufacturing kinda fit that Description. Any small business is going to have to hire local talent so arent already growing the community? What you going to outsource your office manager? Accountant your baristas? But there's a balance with tasks in bulk for me that task is execution coding and specialized roles again for us we couldn't find talent here so we had to import.  We have to stay competitive the World isnt going to wait for me to find or Train local talent. Im currently bidding on a gig and we're competing with an Israeli firm. The best team is going to get it period and this a US based client. Adapt or die. We're not a charity case.  Kawasaki, Bombardier, Foxconn all Foreign company Manufacturing in the US it's logical no shipping local clients, steel coming from Canada or was! oh my bad.  Tasks being sourced to China note I said tasks are mostly execution. Design, plans ect are carried out in their respective Countries. China works in many cases Most of the major components of all within the same general area No need to ship or wait days just send the CAD files and go. You do understand Machines are doing most of the work? Not many hands touching your favorite smartphones manufacturing process. Humans aren't going to compete with robots. So really maybe you could argue that work is being taken away from American Robots by Chinese ones. That might be valid.

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2 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Well answer me this... If you're against protectionism, tell me how it's any better to have people depending on Walmart jobs to make ends meet while still collecting welfare to get by? You see I don't have an issue with some jobs being outsourced. The issue I have is they aren't being replaced with anything but low paying service jobs.  Supposedly Americans would be re-trained to obtain other skills so that they could advance themselves and obtain higher paying jobs.  Well that hasn't really happened, and now even the higher paying jobs are under siege in this country.  Every field that I've worked in, we've always had to be mindful of the ol' mighty Chinese invasion taking over and depressing earnings, so while I haven't necessarily been directly impacted, I am indeed aware of the negative impact that outsourcing has on so many industries.

I really think the spectre of foreign competition is being overblown here. The US is actually in a period of net onshoring in industry right now -- and has been since 2016 -- something that has led to slow yet marked industrial employment growth nationwide. While I absolutely think that certain trade agreements need to be rewritten so that they aren't corporate welfare programs, I think we need to generally move beyond our national fetish for industry, and instead focus our time and monies on improving the viability of employment categories common today. You take so many (deserved) shits on the quality of Walmart jobs, but all you present as remediation for their issues is replacing them. Why, instead of fighting a global industrial war, are we not looking at improving the rights and QoL of service workers? Why can't we aid them in getting collective bargaining, healthcare, etc? Why must we try to so hard to replicate industrial employment levels of 1980 in a paradigmatically different world? I agree that the provision of high-quality work for all americans is a must, but I think that -- nationally -- we spend too much time fixating on those jobs that are currently profitable, rather than the ones that could be. 

2 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

 I think it's great to talk hypothetically, but unfortunately, that's all we've been doing while good paying jobs go overseas, and ultimately, if people aren't earning good wages to pay their share in taxes, it's a waste of time.  The Made in NY stipulation is a band aid solution, no question, but it seems as if there are no other solutions on the table so we here in downstate aren't paying all of the taxes for upstate.

I know I'm gonna get absolutely flamed for saying this, but why do we have to preserve upstate? Beyond trying to inspire organic growth with the sort of transportation/education investments I laid out in my previous post, I think there's something to be said here for a sort of creative destruction. Historically, towns up yonder lived off of whatever natural advantages had been bequeathed on them by geography, geology and transportation. They exploited these factors to develop thriving industrial bases, and lived thus for almost a century. Now, the industries that once sustained them have moved south and west, and barring some massive restructuring in production economics, they simply will not return. Why do we have to keep inflating these shells? Migration, displacement and forced change are by their nature ruthless, destructive forces, but are some of the most powerful generators of economic opportunity known to man. If these towns can't incite some rekindling and redefinition, I see no reason that we shouldn't encourage people to relocate elsewhere -- somewhere where opportunity is plentiful. It is cruel, but at the same time kind. 

2 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

You still haven't answered my question of what are we replacing those manufacturing jobs with if we're going to argue that they should indeed be outsourced?  For years elected officials have said, it's totally fine to outsource some jobs because folks will be trained to do other things.  Well the only thing they're doing are low paying service jobs.  I think it's funny how you are so for outsourcing when you yourself have been negatively impacted and forced to leave the region because of high cost of living here and so many low paying jobs.  A bit ironic...  

This is rich. New York's wage/CoL disparity is because of....outsourcing? Not a constricted housing market, ancient infrastructure, and a pair of governments more interested in their next mudball than legislating towards the wellbeing of their citizens? 

As an addendum to all of this, I also think that of all cities which have suffered deindustrialization, New York's tale has the least to do with outsourcing. Really the only reason that companies located in New York (given its islandic nature, high density, etc) was for ease of access to foreign markets -- the port. Indeed, the port itself was arguably the cornerstone of employment in the city, providing tens if not hundreds of thousands of jobs to teamsters, riggers, crate haulers, longshoremen, and their kin. This all was killed not by some pernicious foreign intervention, but by a technological advancement -- the container. In a flash, the number of people required to process goods portside was slashed by ninety percent, while the remaining ten were moved to Jersey, where laydown space for the boxes existed. As the port moved, manufacturers followed, finally enabled to rationalize production by constructing sprawling, single level factories, and to shrink supply chains by obviating the need to cross the nation's busiest harbor on the nation's most trafficked crossings. Et voila, job loss. 

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1 minute ago, RailRunRob said:

Indeed everybody should run there's how they feel fit. My point is in certain markets you should be able to pick from your best options. Tech and Manufacturing kinda fit that Description. Any small business is going to have to hire local talent so arent already growing the community? What you going to outsource your office manager? Accountant your baristas? But there's a balance with tasks in bulk for me that task is execution coding and specialized roles again for us we couldn't find talent here so we had to import.  We have to stay competitive the World isnt going to wait for me to find or train local talent. Im currently bidding on a gig and we competing with a Israeli firm. The best team is going to get it period and this a US based client. Adapt or die. We're not a charity case.  Kawasaki, Bombardier, Foxconn all Foreign company Manufacturing in the US it's logical no shipping local clients, steel coming from Canada or was! oh my bad.  Tasks being sourced to China note I said tasks are mostly execution. Design, plans ect are carried out in their respective Countries. China works in many cases Most of the major components of all within the same general area No need to ship or wait days just send the CAD files and go. You do understand Machines are doing most of the work? Not many hands touching your favorite smartphones manufacturing process. Humans aren't going to compete with robots. So really maybe you could argue that works are being taken away from American Robots by Chinese ones. That might be valid.

Of course.  Listen, if I really wanted to, I could outsource almost all of the projects that I run to China or India for half the price and take in the profits for my department.  I get your predicament completely. I've studied economics, and I've been studying protectionism since my college days. It's something I'm well versed in.  Your situation is one where our government has failed the American worker to remain competitive by not investing in things like Math and Science. The Nordic countries sure as hell do it, especially Finland and Sweden.  What our elected officials have been touting is "job growth" without stating what types of jobs are being created. The Obama administration was infamous for this.  Meanwhile wages have generally remained stagnant for years.  

You're right, in the age of globalism, protectionism isn't the answer, but that doesn't mean that free trade is either.  In theory, free trade on paper works. The problem is that the multinationals use free trade to exploit others while raking in profits.  It's the little man that gets f****ed over.

I hope that the young ones in this thread are reading this carefully because the futures will definitely be impacted in some way by these sorts of things.

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Just now, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Your situation is one where our government has failed the American worker to remain competitive by not investing in things like Math and Science.

Indeed - fully agree, education is the long term solution. 

 

I'm not even sure protectionist trade practices are a short term solution. Even assuming they have the intended effect of bringing production onshore, until new lines spool up, Tarrifs are passed on to sticker price, the consumer price index goes up, spending goes down, as do profits, hiring, investment and the economy. Don't argue with me, just watch it happen - if it doesn't i'll be the first to admit that I was wrong. But that's really besides the point. 

 

Manufacturing jobs aren't the answer, but it's true - lose them and there's little to replace them with besides service industry unless you increase the overall education level of the population. Add a 13th grade where kids spend the year becoming proficient in Python (or whatever) and watch over decades as the workforce changes and everything is good even as we wave bye bye to the assembly lines. 

 

Maybe that scenario is all kinds of impractical - but the answer, the long term sustainable answer is education, and that's what steers my votes - not low-skill dead-end manufacturing jobs. 

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44 minutes ago, RR503 said:

1. I really think the spectre of foreign competition is being overblown here. The US is actually in a period of net onshoring in industry right now -- and has been since 2016 -- something that has led to slow yet marked industrial employment growth nationwide. While I absolutely think that certain trade agreements need to be rewritten so that they aren't corporate welfare programs, I think we need to generally move beyond our national fetish for industry, and instead focus our time and monies on improving the viability of employment categories common today. You take so many (deserved) shits on the quality of Walmart jobs, but all you present as remediation for their issues is replacing them. Why, instead of fighting a global industrial war, are we not looking at improving the rights and QoL of service workers? Why can't we aid them in getting collective bargaining, healthcare, etc? Why must we try to so hard to replicate industrial employment levels of 1980 in a paradigmatically different world? I agree that the provision of high-quality work for all americans is a must, but I think that -- nationally -- we spend too much time fixating on those jobs that are currently profitable, rather than the ones that could be. 

2. I know I'm gonna get absolutely flamed for saying this, but why do we have to preserve upstate? Beyond trying to inspire organic growth with the sort of transportation/education investments I laid out in my previous post, I think there's something to be said here for a sort of creative destruction. Historically, towns up yonder lived off of whatever natural advantages had been bequeathed on them by geography, geology and transportation. They exploited these factors to develop thriving industrial bases, and lived thus for almost a century. Now, the industries that once sustained them have moved south and west, and barring some massive restructuring in production economics, they simply will not return. Why do we have to keep inflating these shells? Migration, displacement and forced change are by their nature ruthless, destructive forces, but are some of the most powerful generators of economic opportunity known to man. If these towns can't incite some rekindling and redefinition, I see no reason that we shouldn't encourage people to relocate elsewhere -- somewhere where opportunity is plentiful. It is cruel, but at the same time kind. 

3. This is rich. New York's wage/CoL disparity is because of....outsourcing? Not a constricted housing market, ancient infrastructure, and a pair of governments more interested in their next mudball than legislating towards the wellbeing of their citizens? 

As an addendum to all of this, I also think that of all cities which have suffered deindustrialization, New York's tale has the least to do with outsourcing. Really the only reason that companies located in New York (given its islandic nature, high density, etc) was for ease of access to foreign markets -- the port. Indeed, the port itself was arguably the cornerstone of employment in the city, providing tens if not hundreds of thousands of jobs to teamsters, riggers, crate haulers, longshoremen, and their kin. This all was killed not by some pernicious foreign intervention, but by a technological advancement -- the container. In a flash, the number of people required to process goods portside was slashed by ninety percent, while the remaining ten were moved to Jersey, where laydown space for the boxes existed. As the port moved, manufacturers followed, finally enabled to rationalize production by constructing sprawling, single level factories, and to shrink supply chains by obviating the need to cross the nation's busiest harbor on the nation's most trafficked crossings. Et voila, job loss. 

1. You are correct about onshoring.  However, if we look at the overall big picture, those gains have been miniscule.  Regarding your comment about industrialization, I think the answer is because historically speaking in this country, manufacturing has served as a tool to stabilize the middle class providing good paying jobs in areas that would essentially be wiped out, and we've seen this across the country.  As I said earlier, our elected officials have talked a good game about replacing those jobs with better ones, but the truth is they've been blowing hot air and essentially replacing those good paying jobs, with low paying service jobs.  How many Walmarts and Targets can we create paying low wages? It's all cyclical.  Sure, we get cheaper goods, but the American worker has a lower wage and thus less buying power for such goods, not to mention that if the goods are all coming from overseas, that's money going elsewhere that isn't being repatriated.  For the record, Walmart jobs have always had a place in our economy, but they were never intended to be jobs feeding an entire family, and that's the problem.  Now our youth can't get those summer jobs because adults are occupying such positions.  That's a problem, and the bigger problem is the lack of training going on to re-train the American worker for other skilled jobs. I think we need both... More onshoring, protectionist measures to protect at least some of our jobs, and more investment in training.  

Hell the tech sector has been under the gun for as long as I can remember, and that's no good because that means that you have fewer Americans going into certain fields in college.  You can't blame them.  No sense spending $100,000 in college if you can't find a good paying job out of school to pay off all of those student loans.

2.  A better question is what happens if we don't preserve upstate? I look at it as a necessary evil.  I suppose you could argue that upstate has been dying for years now...

3.  It's a combination of things and you know that.  New York (downstate) has been moving to rezone areas for years now from industrial to residential, so manufacturing here in NYC is a thing of the past for the most part, but again what have we replaced those manufacturing jobs with? Tech, finance, medical, and the film industry. Those are the main employers here in this City.  If any of those go, you saw how things went during the last downturn here.

 

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8
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9 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I could outsource almost all of the projects that I run to China or India for half the price and take in the profits for my department.

It's not all about half off it's about Quality and getting the job right. You think Apple,Tesla, Kawasaki or Google are hiring low wage workers? Sometimes is directly because of a shortage of talent. 

9 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

What our elected officials have been touting is "job growth" without stating what types of jobs are being created. The Obama administration was infamous for this.  Meanwhile wages have generally remained stagnant for years.  

I mean a job is better than no job if you look at we're we came from in 2008. The hard part is how do you measure what's fair wage wise? A Manufacturing job in 1977 is completely different from one now. Plus there are other factors raw materials, market rate, yield... How do you measure that? Based on what the company is making? Cost of living? What you feel is deserved?

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28 minutes ago, itmaybeokay said:

unless you increase the overall education level of the population. Add a 13th grade where kids spend the year becoming proficient in Python (or whatever) and watch over decades as the workforce changes and everything is good even as we wave bye bye to the assembly lines. 

 

Yes, 100% Watch Innovation boom as well.

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Just now, RailRunRob said:

It's not all about half off it's about Quality and getting the job right. You think Apple,Tesla, Kawasaki or Google are hiring low wage workers? Sometimes is directly because of a shortage of talent. 

I mean a job is better than no job if you look at we're we came from in 2008. The hard part is how do you measure what's fair wage wise? A Manufacturing job in 1977 is completely different from one now. Plus there are other factors raw materials, market rate, yield... How do you measure that? Based on what the company is making? Cost of living? What you feel is deserved?

That's a good question.  I think we can find the answer or at least an example that can be used with the foreign automakers in the South (e.g. Toyota and BMW) that have been very successful in their overall operations.

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4 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

That's a good question.  I think we can find the answer or at least an example that can be used with the foreign automakers in the South (e.g. Toyota and BMW) that have been very successful in their overall operations.

Indeed.. From engineering, perspective would think it would involve the law of conservation and optimization. With good ole Q/A

Edited by RailRunRob
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Just now, RailRunRob said:

Indeed.. From engineering, perspective would think it would involve the law of conservation and optimization

I think they're a good example because the workers are non-union and seem to be quite happy, so obviously they're paying a fair wage, or at least something that attracts and maintains good workers there.

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2 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I think they're a good example because the workers are non-union and seem to be quite happy, so obviously they're paying a fair wage, or at least something that attracts and maintains good workers there.

1

Yep, That's important that affects the product. You want people to love and take pride in what they do. 

Edited by RailRunRob
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2 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I think they're a good example because the workers are non-union and seem to be quite happy, so obviously they're paying a fair wage, or at least something that attracts and maintains good workers there.

The Freemont, CA GM plant Transformation in the 1980's comes to mind.

Edited by RailRunRob
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While all of you are talking about manufacturing/jobs, I'm just gonna go ahead and post yet another myriad update regarding the R179s...

Status of all R179s:

3010-3019: *still* at Bombardier for modifications <_<

3050-3057: In service on the (J) :)

3058-3065: In service on the (J) :)

3066-3069: In service on the (J) :)

3074-3077: Recently arrived, testing at the Rockaways ;)

3078-3081: In service on the (J) :)

3082-3085: In service on the (J) :)

3086-3089: In service on the (J) :)

3090-3093: In service on the (J) :)

3094-3097: In service on the (J) :)

3098-3101: In service on the (J) :)

3102-3105: In service on the (J) :)

3106-3109: In service on the (J) :)

3110-3113: In service on the (J) :)

3114-3117: In service on the (J) :)

3118-3121: In service on the (J) :)

3122-3125: Burn-ins on the (J) ;)

3126-3129: Testing in the Rockaways ;)

3134-3137: Burn-ins on the (J) ;)

Things to note:

-3010-3019 could be back in the city by August/September. 

-The (J) with the R32s/R42s will stick around until fall. 

-3074-3077 arrived about two weeks ago.

-IDK if any new cars have been delivered, I need someone to verify if this is the case.

-The (J) will soon have over nine R179s in-service. 

-We're almost halfway through the delivery of the four-car sets! 

 

 

 

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50 minutes ago, subwaycommuter1983 said:

What does outsourcing have to do with the r179's???

Hello!!!!! Let's get back to the r179's!!!!!!

Another clip. Enjoy!!!!

 

Since we're going to feign ignorance, the discussion came about due to where the R179s are being manufactured and the Made in NY stipulation for them.  That's actually on the first page of this thread.  Hello!! <_<

16 minutes ago, Coney Island Av said:

While all of you are talking about manufacturing/jobs, I'm just gonna go ahead and post yet another myriad update regarding the R179s...

Status of all R179s:

3010-3019: *still* at Bombardier for modifications <_<

3050-3057: In service on the (J) :)

3058-3065: In service on the (J) :)

3066-3069: In service on the (J) :)

3074-3077: Recently arrived, testing at the Rockaways ;)

3078-3081: In service on the (J) :)

3082-3085: In service on the (J) :)

3086-3089: In service on the (J) :)

3090-3093: In service on the (J) :)

3094-3097: In service on the (J) :)

3098-3101: In service on the (J) :)

3102-3105: In service on the (J) :)

3106-3109: In service on the (J) :)

3110-3113: In service on the (J) :)

3114-3117: In service on the (J) :)

3118-3121: In service on the (J) :)

3122-3125: Burn-ins on the (J) ;)

3126-3129: Testing in the Rockaways ;)

3134-3137: Burn-ins on the (J) ;)

Things to note:

-3010-3019 could be back in the city by August/September. 

-The (J) with the R32s/R42s will stick around until fall. 

-3074-3077 arrived about two weeks ago.

-IDK if any new cars have been delivered, I need someone to verify if this is the case.

-The (J) will soon have over nine R179s in-service. 

-We're almost halfway through the delivery of the four-car sets! 

 

 

 

Can you share some insight on the whole testing process and the delays that have resulted from this?  Aren't these similar to the other newer cars that have been manufactured? If so why have these been such a problem?

 

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8
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Don't know if anybody's posted this yet, but on a related topic:

Quote

In a stunning setback for the TTC’s problem-plagued streetcar order, Bombardier now says most of the vehicles it has already delivered to the transit agency will have to be taken out of service and shipped to Quebec to correct a serious welding defect.

The Star has learned that after a lengthy investigation into long-standing welding problems with the vehicles, Bombardier has concluded the first 67 of the 89 cars it has supplied need to be fixed, or they could fail prematurely.

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2018/07/03/most-new-ttc-streetcars-to-be-shipped-to-quebec-to-fix-welding-defect-bombardier-says.html

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2 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

1. You are correct about onshoring.  However, if we look at the overall big picture, those gains have been miniscule.  Regarding your comment about industrialization, I think the answer is because historically speaking in this country, manufacturing has served as a tool to stabilize the middle class providing good paying jobs in areas that would essentially be wiped out, and we've seen this across the country.  As I said earlier, our elected officials have talked a good game about replacing those jobs with better ones, but the truth is they've been blowing hot air and essentially replacing those good paying jobs, with low paying service jobs.  How many Walmarts and Targets can we create paying low wages? It's all cyclical.  Sure, we get cheaper goods, but the American worker has a lower wage and thus less buying power for such goods, not to mention that if the goods are all coming from overseas, that's money going elsewhere that isn't being repatriated.  For the record, Walmart jobs have always had a place in our economy, but they were never intended to be jobs feeding an entire family, and that's the problem.  Now our youth can't get those summer jobs because adults are occupying such positions.  That's a problem, and the bigger problem is the lack of training going on to re-train the American worker for other skilled jobs. I think we need both... More onshoring, protectionist measures to protect at least some of our jobs, and more investment in training.  

Hell the tech sector has been under the gun for as long as I can remember, and that's no good because that means that you have fewer Americans going into certain fields in college.  You can't blame them.  No sense spending $100,000 in college if you can't find a good paying job out of school to pay off all of those student loans.

 2.  A better question is what happens if we don't preserve upstate? I look at it as a necessary evil.  I suppose you could argue that upstate has been dying for years now...

3.  It's a combination of things and you know that.  New York (downstate) has been moving to rezone areas for years now from industrial to residential, so manufacturing here in NYC is a thing of the past for the most part, but again what have we replaced those manufacturing jobs with? Tech, finance, medical, and the film industry. Those are the main employers here in this City.  If any of those go, you saw how things went during the last downturn here.

3

1. Not disagreeing with you here, just saying the word "historically" needs to bear little weight when making policy decisions on dynamic issues. I generally agree with your and itmaybeokay's RRR's comments re: education. 

2. Look, I'd love to keep upstate flourishing. The issue I draw -- and indeed the reason I got involved in this argument -- was with our diagnosis of its issues and with our suggested treatment. We are losing tens of millions of tax dollars (if not more) on contracts every year because we are keeping upstate on industrial welfare. I think instead of that, we should be directing monies towards reinvention -- better transport to NY/BOS, better educational facilities, etc. Penalizing downstate's ability to function doesn't seem just. 

3. Totally, but you must understand that the issues of rezoning and replacement are new phenomena. We would not have had so many loft conversions if we hadn't had so much vacant industrial space -- a situation precipitated largely by the container. 

40 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Can you share some insight on the whole testing process and the delays that have resulted from this?  Aren't these similar to the other newer cars that have been manufactured? If so why have these been such a problem?

1

Essentially, Bombardier forgot how to do quality control. The company has lately been prioritizing their aviation division (specificially, the C series) above all else, and that focus is showing through in production. First, there were weld issues, and then design issues, and then delivered cars with 200+ items that needed changing/repair. 

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