R179 Discussion Thread

[Far Rock Depot]

And with it being Bombardier (honestly their name is making more sense by the order) they have enough issues as it is and are late with most of their deliveries. A change by NYC might make them break

 

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[Dj Hammers]

Actually, it is entirely possible to change the balance of 4 and 5 car units to include more 5-car units and less 4-car units.

 

Also, expect the first equipment swaps to start in September. 

 

Everything is subject to change though. Stay tuned I guess!

Edited August 9, 2017 by Dj Hammers

[Bill from Maspeth]

Best shuffle off the top of my head?

179s on the A and C. This frees up the 32s, 160s and the borrowed 68 during the pm rush. The 160s go back to the J/Z freeing up their 32s. The 32s go to the B allowing them to see less road time. This frees up 68s for doubling the length of G trains. Then we can wait for the 211s for fleet expansion, then we can reevaluate the need for longer C trains.

 

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It has been noted plenty of times by me and others on this forum and others that R32's (and all remaining B Division passenger cars from R42  on down) are not allowed in the Montague Tube.  PERMANENTLY.  And this situation will not be corrected because of the small number of cars involved.  

 

Does the B operate via the Montague Tube?  Of course not.  But the possibility always exists in case the railroad goes bad.  Senario: B train of R32's has already left Prospect Park and is at either 7th Ave. or Atlantic/Barclays.  NYPD calls NYCT and says "Suspend your service over  the Manhattan Bridge".  What happens to that B train and any others between Prospect Park and DeKalb?  You can't turn at Lawrence/Metro Tech because you have severe crowding and it will delay your only route to Manhattan.  Therefore NYCT will NOT assign any R32 to any Southern Division route.

[Far Rock Depot]

It has been noted plenty of times by me and others on this forum and others that R32's (and all remaining B Division passenger cars from R42 on down) are not allowed in the Montague Tube. PERMANENTLY. And this situation will not be corrected because of the small number of cars involved.

 

Does the B operate via the Montague Tube? Of course not. But the possibility always exists in case the railroad goes bad. Senario: B train of R32's has already left Prospect Park and is at either 7th Ave. or Atlantic/Barclays. NYPD calls NYCT and says "Suspend your service over the Manhattan Bridge". What happens to that B train and any others between Prospect Park and DeKalb? You can't turn at Lawrence/Metro Tech because you have severe crowding and it will delay your only route to Manhattan. Therefore NYCT will NOT assign any R32 to any Southern Division route.

But the thing is 99 Out of 100 times, the B gets suspended. Trains enroute would get turned where they can. Chances are, there will be one B train between where you mention. And you can turn it at Court St. Southbounds have no access to Montegue on the Manhattan side. The montegue restriction is usually a non-issue. Many have brought it up. I've worked a B that got turned in BK once. Got turned at Prospect.

 

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[Daniel The Cool]

But the thing is 99 Out of 100 times, the B gets suspended. Trains enroute would get turned where they can. Chances are, there will be one B train between where you mention. And you can turn it at Court St. Southbounds have no access to Montegue on the Manhattan side. The montegue restriction is usually a non-issue. Many have brought it up. I've worked a B that got turned in BK once. Got turned at Prospect.

 

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He's talking about the trains that are already out on the road. 

[Far Rock Depot]

He's talking about the trains that are already out on the road.

You pretty much only read the first sentence in my reply. You may want to read more of it.

 

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[Bill from Maspeth]

But the thing is 99 Out of 100 times, the B gets suspended. Trains enroute would get turned where they can. Chances are, there will be one B train between where you mention. And you can turn it at Court St. Southbounds have no access to Montegue on the Manhattan side. The montegue restriction is usually a non-issue. Many have brought it up. I've worked a B that got turned in BK once. Got turned at Prospect.

 

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Turning at Court is the same as turning at MetroTech because it's the same interlocking!

 

Transit will not put R32's on the B because of "chances are" because things go wrong on the railroad.  In case all trains have to go via Montague and an R32 is already past Prospect Park, it will delay more trains turning that R32 at Court or MetroTech + it would make the crowd condition worse.  Let's not go back and forth on this.  There are plenty of other places R32's can go to rather than in the Southern Division.

[Dj Hammers]

Actually, the issue of having to turn Bs at Lawrence St (Jay-MetroTech) interlocking should bridge access be closed isn't that much of an issue apparently. 

 

Now that SAS is open, there is a much less severe need to be able to reroute Bs via Montague to turn in the case of a service suspension, as they can instead be rerouted up Broadway side of the bridge to 96 st.

 

A year and a half from now or so, all of this will be moot, as the relevant fleet swaps will have already occurred or will be in the process of occurring. 

Edited August 9, 2017 by Dj Hammers

[Far Rock Depot]

Actually, the issue of having to turn Bs at Lawrence St (Jay-MetroTech) interlocking should bridge access be closed isn't that much of an issue apparently.

 

Now that SAS is open, there is a much less severe need to be able to reroute Bs via Montague to turn in the case of a service suspension, as they can instead be rerouted up 6av to 96 st.

 

A year and a half from now or so, all of this will be moot, as the relevant fleet swaps will have already occurred or will be in the process of occurring.

If the sixth ave portion of the bridge is closed, how would they go up sixth ave? Thats the issue. Thats why supposedly they would need to go thru Montegue. But as I see it, what, one B train would be in that predicament? You can turn one train at court/metrotech, or send it up Broadway to 96th via the Broadway side of the bridge.

 

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[Dj Hammers]

If the sixth ave portion of the bridge is closed, how would they go up sixth ave? Thats the issue. Thats why supposedly they would need to go thru Montegue. But as I see it, what, one B train would be in that predicament? You can turn one train at court/metrotech, or send it up Broadway to 96th via the Broadway side of the bridge.

 

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Sorry, I mis-typed. I meant to write Broadway, not 6av. The original post has been edited to fix the error.

 

Worst case scenario, you'll end up with one or two B's trapped north of Prospect Park that for whatever reason have to be turned at MetroTech. It's not the end of the world. With the W terminating at Whitehall as it is, it doesn't matter WHAT you send up Montague (B, D, etc.); if you want to turn it before 34th st, you have to turn it at MetroTech anyway.

 

Given how rarely such a scenario would occur now that SAS is open, a marginal analysis would show that it would not pose too much of an operational problem to assign R32s/R42s to the B over the long term.

Edited August 9, 2017 by Dj Hammers

[Bill from Maspeth]

If the sixth ave portion of the bridge is closed, how would they go up sixth ave? Thats the issue. Thats why supposedly they would need to go thru Montegue. But as I see it, what, one B train would be in that predicament? You can turn one train at court/metrotech, or send it up Broadway to 96th via the Broadway side of the bridge.

 

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And I said that it would cause more of a delay and crowd condition.  Don't you get it?  You have both tracks of the bridge off limits, and it does happen because things happen up there and NYPD will close it for "security".  You now only have one track to Manhattan: the route via the Montague.  IT IS a big deal if you have to halt things so you can turn a train at the interlocking between Court and MetroTech.  You are slowing down service even more because it takes time to get the passengers off that R32.  And you are crowding the station you discharged at with the passengers from that R32.

 

All this seems to be a railfan thing.  "I want those R32's on the B because they somehow belong on the Brighton Line".  Even though they will be laid up on weekends, the line does run till close to midnight M-F.  Plus air conditioning failures will be often because very little of the line is outside.  Once the R32 leaves Prospect Park, it takes a long time for that train to get back to Prospect Park for the a/c units to get outside air.

 

Once these 4 car units arrive, NYCT and NYCT alone, will decide where to run the R32's.  But rest assured they will not run on any line that goes near DeKalb Ave.

Edited August 9, 2017 by Bill from Maspeth

[Dj Hammers]

And I said that it would cause more of a delay and crowd condition.  Don't you get it?  You have both tracks of the bridge off limits, and it does happen because things happen up there and NYPD will close it for "security".  You now only have one track to Manhattan: the route via the Montague.  IT IS a big deal if you have to halt things so you can turn a train at the interlocking between Court and MetroTech.  You are slowing down service even more because it takes time to get the passengers off that R32.  And you are crowding the station you discharged at with the passengers from that R32.

 

All this seems to be a railfan thing.  "I want those R32's on the B because they somehow belong on the Brighton Line".  Even though they will be laid up on weekends, the line does run till close to midnight M-F.  Plus air conditioning failures will be often because very little of the line is outside.  Once the R32 leaves Prospect Park, it takes a long time for that train to get back to Prospect Park for the a/c units to get outside air.

 

Once these 4 car units arrive, NYCT and NYCT alone, will decide where to run the R32's.  But rest assured they will not run on any line that goes near DeKalb Ave.

There's a lot that I would like to say, but I can't really talk about it at the moment due to the info not being public.

 

However, I will say that I am aware of what the current plans are vis-a-vis car assignments post-R179 delivery, and the issue you are describing is not seen as a significant one. It's definitely one worth consideration, but the marginal disadvantages that it causes are not really that much of a problem given how rarely this sort of thing occurs.

 

That's all I can really say right now. I guess just stay tuned, changes are coming soon!

Edited August 9, 2017 by Dj Hammers

[Far Rock Depot]

And I said that it would cause more of a delay and crowd condition. Don't you get it? You have both tracks of the bridge off limits, and it does happen because things happen up there and NYPD will close it for "security". You now only have one track to Manhattan: the route via the Montague. IT IS a big deal if you have to halt things so you can turn a train at the interlocking between Court and MetroTech. You are slowing down service even more because it takes time to get the passengers off that R32. And you are crowding the station you discharged at with the passengers from that R32.

 

All this seems to be a railfan thing. "I want those R32's on the B because they somehow belong on the Brighton Line". Even though they will be laid up on weekends, the line does run till close to midnight M-F. Plus air conditioning failures will be often because very little of the line is outside. Once the R32 leaves Prospect Park, it takes a long time for that train to get back to Prospect Park for the a/c units to get outside air.

 

Once these 4 car units arrive, NYCT and NYCT alone, will decide where to run the R32's. But rest assured they will not run on any line that goes near DeKalb Ave.

Well my logic isn't rail fan based. I've actually worked the B as C/R. I know bit a schedule. I know its headways. Last trains arrive at their respective terminals at around 1030-1045. Last crews N/B alone clear out trains till just before 11 at 145th.

I say the B because cars on that line will see less mileage. Not because "they belong on the brighton". I also understand the NYPD security reasons. But honestly, how many N/B B's get caught on average between prospect pk and Manhattan during a Suspension. I studied towers when I was in, thinking about going to there after C/R. I've worked jobs out of DeKalb watching the towers personnel working during a block. I'm not just a railfan. I'm former train crew as well. Which is why I mentioned early in rarely post my ideas because here, no one seems to realize its not always "as a railfan". And no disrespect, but as I recall, you didnt want to go back and forth and I respected that. I was discussing this with DJ.

 

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[R32 3838]

Imo the R32's should be split between the and if they decide to put em on the . If anything the B should get some R46's

[Far Rock Depot]

Imo the R32's should be split between the and if they decide to put em on the . If anything the B should get some R46's

The problem is that the 32s have the lowest mdbf. Putting the worst cars on the longest line is asking for trouble IMO.

 

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[R32 3838]

The doesn't have to have alot, i would say about 5-8 sets with most going to rock park thats about 100 cars 60-80 cars in service out of 100. Less running time while the rest would be on the . Now if the A had the whole fleet then that's a different story.

[Far Rock Depot]

The doesn't have to have alot, i would say about 5-8 sets with most going to rock park thats about 100 cars 60-80 cars in service out of 100. Less running time while the rest would be on the . Now if the A had the whole fleet then that's a different story.

Rock park only uses 5 sets and those are usually dedicated. The 5 that leave rock pkin the am go to the 207th yard until the trip back (I've worked those jobs a lot as an "extra-extra"). Thats 50 cars (if 32s) but would make sense due to the reduced mileage. Sometimes those rock pk sets are also sometimes used for weekend summer service when the Shuttle doubles in length and extends to Rockaway blvd, requiring more cars. We will see what happens in the coming year as to what they ultimately decide.

 

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[Jemorie]

The problem is that the 32s have the lowest mdbf. Putting the worst cars on the longest line is asking for trouble IMO.

 

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Aren't delays in the subway usually caused by aging signals/tracks though?

[Bill from Maspeth]

Well my logic isn't rail fan based. I've actually worked the B as C/R. I know bit a schedule. I know its headways. Last trains arrive at their respective terminals at around 1030-1045. Last crews N/B alone clear out trains till just before 11 at 145th.

I say the B because cars on that line will see less mileage. Not because "they belong on the brighton". I also understand the NYPD security reasons. But honestly, how many N/B B's get caught on average between prospect pk and Manhattan during a Suspension. I studied towers when I was in, thinking about going to there after C/R. I've worked jobs out of DeKalb watching the towers personnel working during a block. I'm not just a railfan. I'm former train crew as well. Which is why I mentioned early in rarely post my ideas because here, no one seems to realize its not always "as a railfan". And no disrespect, but as I recall, you didnt want to go back and forth and I respected that. I was discussing this with DJ.

 

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I am a retired t/o who had 34 years on the job, so I know a little something about how the place operates just like you. IJS. I realize you were discussing this with DJ, but I have a right to respond because the discussion was not messenger based, rather this is a member forum.

  

It may not matter to you on how infrequent a service interruption of this magnitude happens, but you should know by now how senior management thinks.  Something may have a very slight chance of happening, but management takes those precautions anyway.  They may allow the issue with an R32 happen once, but after that they always take precautions that the same issue does not happen again.  Hence my opposition to R32's on the B.  Don't you think senior management has thought of putting R32's on the B so they would have part time use?  I bet they did and they vetoed it for the reason I stated earlier.

[Union Tpke]

Here are two options that I see:

 

Without being full length:

The gets the 5-car R179s, the R32s from the go to the , the R68/As from the go to the , and the R160s from the go to the .

: R46, R179

: R32
: R179
: R68/A
  : R160

 

 The is a part-time route, and is outside for the Brooklyn part, so the R32s should be able to handle the lower milage and their A/Cs will be able to hold up during the summer. DJHammers hints at this:

 

There's a lot that I would like to say, but I can't really talk about it at the moment due to the info not being public.

 

However, I will say that I am aware of what the current plans are vis-a-vis car assignments post-R179 delivery, and the issue you are describing is not seen as a significant one. It's definitely one worth consideration, but the marginal disadvantages that it causes are not really that much of a problem given how rarely this sort of thing occurs.

 

With the C full length:

 

: R32, (50) R46

R32 (160)

: R46, R179 5-car (50)
: R179 4-car
  : R160 4-car

 

Then there is the question of what to do with all of the additional R179 4-cars.

[Far Rock Depot]

Here are two options that I see:

 

Without being full length:

The gets the 5-car R179s, the R32s from the go to the , the R68/As from the go to the , and the R160s from the go to the .

: R46, R179

: R32

: R179

: R68/A

: R160

 

The is a part-time route, and is outside for the Brooklyn part, so the R32s should be able to handle the lower milage and their A/Cs will be able to hold up during the summer. DJHammers hints at this:

 

With the C full length:

 

: R32, (50) R46

R32 (160)

: R46, R179 5-car (50)

: R179 4-car

: R160 4-car

 

Then there is the question of what to do with all of the additional R179 4-cars.

There's only going to be 40 179s in 5-car sets. Thats 4 consists (3010-3049)

 

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Here's an option I just thought of: does anyone think that the G may see a return of the 32s there possibly?

 

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[Around the Horn]

Here are two options that I see:

 

Without being full length:

The gets the 5-car R179s, the R32s from the go to the , the R68/As from the go to the , and the R160s from the go to the .

: R46, R179

: R32

: R179

: R68/A

  : R160

 

 The is a part-time route, and is outside for the Brooklyn part, so the R32s should be able to handle the lower milage and their A/Cs will be able to hold up during the summer. DJHammers hints at this:

 

With the C full length:

 

: R32, (50) R46

R32 (160)

: R46, R179 5-car (50)

: R179 4-car

  : R160 4-car

 

Then there is the question of what to do with all of the additional R179 4-cars.

 

I assume you're giving the R68's to the ?

[danielhg121]

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Here's an option I just thought of: does anyone think that the G may see a return of the 32s there possibly?

 

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Would that lead to a fleet swap between the and ? Cuz BMT Eastern Div. can’t handle R68/A.

 

 

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[Far Rock Depot]

Would that lead to a fleet swap between the and ? Cuz BMT Eastern Div. can’t handle R68/A.

 

 

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I Wouldn't call it a direct swap between the C and G since as far as we know so far, its planned to have the 179s on the C. Why would there be a need to send the 68s to the J/Z, where they obviously won't fit?

 

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If 32s wind up on the G, that frees up what, 52 R68s to go elsewhere. Thats about 6 full consists and a four-car set.

 

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[Union Tpke]

There's only going to be 40 179s in 5-car sets. Thats 4 consists (3010-3049)

 

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Here's an option I just thought of: does anyone think that the G may see a return of the 32s there possibly?

 

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I was referring to the 4 CAR sets. If the C goes full length, it can't use them, leaving them for the G, J and Z.

 

 

I assume you're giving the R68's to the ?

 

I guess....? I am not sure how it would work out.