R179 Discussion Thread

[Coney Island Av]

59 minutes ago, Bosco said:

With the issue resolved (for now), should we expect new deliveries in the near future?  Needless to say, they’ve been on hold since this issue came up.

Yes, deliveries will resume, otherwise, the MTA would just be waiting for no reason. Why would the MTA just sip tea like Kermit when these cars need to be on the  as fast as possible? 

The next sets that will probably be delivered are more 4-car sets, which I covered previously in this thread. Regardless, I'll recap them again.

The four-car sets that will follow suit in the next couple of weeks will be:

3114-3115 (most likely)

3116-3117 

3076-3077

3074-3075

3072-3073

 

 

[Dj Hammers]

You'll start seeing new deliveries VERY shortly. In addition, there is some additional work being done on the 5-car units to bring them up to spec with the rest of the fleet.

[MTA Bus]

I highly doubt that all 316 cars will be on property by this time next year.

[LGA Link N Train]

8 hours ago, MTA Bus said:

I highly doubt that all 316 cars will be on property by this time next year.

Let's not jump to conclusions so Quickly 

[Bosco]

7 hours ago, LGA Link N train said:

Let's not jump to conclusions so Quickly 

I mean, it is cutting it close right now.  It was close even before the issue with the e-brake handle, and having another three-week's delay is not helping matters.  They still need to get at least one car in per day, and that's assuming NOTHING else goes wrong.  Let's hope for the best, but prepare for the worst, as they say.

[Trainmaster5]

Am I the only one who hasn't succumbed to the seemingly mass hysteria about the R179 car delivery ? The equipment will be delivered and put in service when all issues have been remedied and they're cleared for operation. If the cars aren't ready when the shutdown is scheduled to begin does the tunnel work get delayed ? I doubt it. I believe that New Yorkers are resilient and can adapt to the circumstances. I've been around for three TWU transit strikes, one coupled with a LIRR strike, three blackouts, the Fifth Avenue coach shutdown, the Grumman Flxible bus fiasco and 9/11. Each time real New Yorkers adjusted and life continued on. Just think that the gloom and doom is overdone IMO. It's not the end of the world is it ? Carry on.

[RR503]

32 minutes ago, Trainmaster5 said:

Am I the only one who hasn't succumbed to the seemingly mass hysteria about the R179 car delivery ? The equipment will be delivered and put in service when all issues have been remedied and they're cleared for operation. If the cars aren't ready when the shutdown is scheduled to begin does the tunnel work get delayed ? I doubt it. I believe that New Yorkers are resilient and can adapt to the circumstances. I've been around for three TWU transit strikes, one coupled with a LIRR strike, three blackouts, the Fifth Avenue coach shutdown, the Grumman Flxible bus fiasco and 9/11. Each time real New Yorkers adjusted and life continued on. Just think that the gloom and doom is overdone IMO. It's not the end of the world is it ? Carry on.

I don’t think anyone is saying the world will end — or if they are, then yes, they’re wrong. But I don’t remember any of those other things you mentioned being at all convenient. In fact, they were extremely disruptive, and in one case, tragic. So yes, if the R179s don’t come in on time, the world will not stop spinning; life will go on. But that doesn’t mean doing so will be easy. We’re talking about hundreds of thousands of paying MTA customers, of workers, of pieces of our city’s economy being packed into even more infrequent, inconvenient, and overcrowded trains. So yes, hysteria is not justified. But I think that some level of apprehension and appreciation for the consequences that such late deliveries may have is definitely in order. 

[Trainmaster5]

1 hour ago, RR503 said:

I don’t think anyone is saying the world will end — or if they are, then yes, they’re wrong. But I don’t remember any of those other things you mentioned being at all convenient. In fact, they were extremely disruptive, and in one case, tragic. So yes, if the R179s don’t come in on time, the world will not stop spinning; life will go on. But that doesn’t mean doing so will be easy. We’re talking about hundreds of thousands of paying MTA customers, of workers, of pieces of our city’s economy being packed into even more infrequent, inconvenient, and overcrowded trains. So yes, hysteria is not justified. But I think that some level of apprehension and appreciation for the consequences that such late deliveries may have is definitely in order. 

I think your first sentence summed up my feelings exactly. I saw the post from DJ and thought , before my post, what would have happened if there was no R179 order at all. That's the gist of what I was getting at. The tunnel work would go on no matter what the equipment situation was. Carry on.

[VIP]

This order was poorly planned and is very cost INEFFECTIVE, IMO. The R32/R42 being old wasn’t enough to justify an 8-car order. A large R211 order would have sufficed the same way the R160 option order 1 and 2 was executed. This way cars can be SMSed and/or retired equally in time. And so what if R46’s were going to get retired “pre maturely” they’re not good handling the current ridership...And given Bombardier’s track record; they should’ve never had the opportunity to enter bidding. The  seemed to have forgotten the R142 fiasco. Now we’re gonna have oddballs the same way we had the R40 Slants... and all this talk about the  needing to be fully NTT before and during the Canarsie shutdown is all preference and conjecture.  

[subwaycommuter1983]

29 minutes ago, VIP said:

This order was poorly planned and is very cost INEFFECTIVE, IMO. The R32/R42 being old wasn’t enough to justify an 8-car order. A large R211 order would have sufficed the same way the R160 option order 1 and 2 was executed. This way cars can be SMSed and/or retired equally in time. And so what if R46’s were going to get retired “pre maturely” they’re not good handling the current ridership...And given Bombardier’s track record; they should’ve never had the opportunity to enter bidding. The  seemed to have forgotten the R142 fiasco. Now we’re gonna have oddballs the same way we had the R40 Slants... and all this talk about the  needing to be fully NTT before and during the Canarsie shutdown is all preference and conjecture.  

I agree 100%. At least the MTA will most likely have better luck with the r211's.

Also, although I agree with @Coney Island Av in regards to car fleet assignments, I have to admit that @CDTA 's idea of putting, most if not all NTT to all the lines affected by the Canarsie tunnel work (, , , , , ), while putting the r46's on the , , , and , is really great too.

But again we have to wait and see and hope for the best.

[Coney Island Av]

I agree 100% with @Trainmaster5 and @RR503. Even if all 316 aren't on property, MOST of the fleet will definitely be on property. That's adequate enough for the , even if it's not fully NTT. I mean, the majority of crowds will be riding NTTs, and only some would be riding the tiresome SMEEs. But even if MTA did stress it- they could also simply accelerate the deliveries of the cars to compensate. Think about it, the R142s did have issues, but they still managed to replace the remaining Redbirds in only four years. And deliveries of the latter was only lethargic for 2002, until being accelerated in 2003. So the same could be said for the R179s, however, as @RR503 stated, the past isn't justifiable and the future could be averted. 

We have about one year until the  shutdown, and I imagine that it WON'T be enough time, however, the shutdown will still be bad regardless of car types. The only bad thing about the shutdown is the  being cut from Manhattan, not fleet assignments. Think about it, the  somehow manages 15TPH, and it still uses a few R46s. I'm sure the  will be no different. I totally get why people think of this as "the end of the world," and I used to think the same way, but when your posts + Dj's popped up, that fixed the whole entire thing. In other words, at first it may look stressful, but if you think/do a little shoveling, you'll find out the situation is a petty overexaggeration. The shutdown won't be affected by the R179 delays, cause it's only a minor dent. 

 

Edited April 3, 2018 by Coney Island Av

[RR503]

2 hours ago, VIP said:

This order was poorly planned and is very cost INEFFECTIVE, IMO. The R32/R42 being old wasn’t enough to justify an 8-car order. A large R211 order would have sufficed the same way the R160 option order 1 and 2 was executed. This way cars can be SMSed and/or retired equally in time. And so what if R46’s were going to get retired “pre maturely” they’re not good handling the current ridership...And given Bombardier’s track record; they should’ve never had the opportunity to enter bidding. The  seemed to have forgotten the R142 fiasco. Now we’re gonna have oddballs the same way we had the R40 Slants... and all this talk about the  needing to be fully NTT before and during the Canarsie shutdown is all preference and conjecture.  

The issue here isn't with whether the  will be all NTT or not for the shutdown. It's that the shutdown will markedly increase the number of cars required for normal rush hour service on the B division. Those longer trains on the  and , the 5 extra tph on the , the extra tph on the , the doubled frequency on the , and all those other things which my tired brain can't remember don't come free. And they definitiely don't come free to a division that has been suffering through a fleet shortage ever since the R44s kicked the bucket before it was their turn. This isn't an issue of the MTA not being able to have the car assignments as they like. This is an issue of whether the MTA will have the cars to make those trains to run those assigments. And sure, we'll adjust and all. But again, the absoloute last thing this system -- hell, this city -- needs is a grotesque combination of “8AM on the Lex” and “A Car Shortage Grows in Brooklyn” doing an underground tour of Williamsburg next year. 

So yeah, maybe they will end up running SMEEs on the  during the shutdown. But don’t think you’re gonna get to fan them. You’ll be too busy trying to not be pushed off the platform at Marcy Avenue to even care that your favorite pair of R42s just pulled up in front of you. 

Edited April 3, 2018 by RR503

[subwaycommuter1983]

12 hours ago, RR503 said:

The issue here isn't with whether the  will be all NTT or not for the shutdown. It's that the shutdown will markedly increase the number of cars required for normal rush hour service on the B division. Those longer trains on the  and , the 5 extra tph on the , the extra tph on the , the doubled frequency on the , and all those other things which my tired brain can't remember don't come free. And they definitiely don't come free to a division that has been suffering through a fleet shortage ever since the R44s kicked the bucket before it was their turn. This isn't an issue of the MTA not being able to have the car assignments as they like. This is an issue of whether the MTA will have the cars to make those trains to run those assigments. And sure, we'll adjust and all. But again, the absoloute last thing this system -- hell, this city -- needs is a grotesque combination of “8AM on the Lex” and “A Car Shortage Grows in Brooklyn” doing an underground tour of Williamsburg next year. 

So yeah, maybe they will end up running SMEEs on the  during the shutdown. But don’t think you’re gonna get to fan them. You’ll be too busy trying to not be pushed off the platform at Marcy Avenue to even care that your favorite pair of R42s just pulled up in front of you. 

And this goes back to a comment that I posted a while ago: More articulated shuttle buses!!!

Having all r179's delivered before April 2019 may somehow mitigate any potential overcrowding in Brooklyn. However,  it's the people in Manhattan who are going to suffer the biggest blow, especially those who live in alphabet city, where the  is the only train that serves the area. Also, a lot of people use the  for Crosstown service in Manhattan. 

Regardless of what happens with the r179's, I think the people in Brooklyn are going to be fine. They're just going to have to do more transfers between trains. That's it. And yes if the r179's aren't completely delivered before April, then the SMEE may have to stay on the . That's it. And like @Trainmaster5 says "Carry on ".

Edited April 3, 2018 by subwaycommuter1983

[U-BahnNYC]

23 hours ago, subwaycommuter1983 said:

all NTT to all the lines affected by the Canarsie tunnel work (, , , , , ), while putting the r46's on the , , , and , is really great too.

I, too, think it sounds like a good idea, especially if this one thing that I'm uncertain of is true. That thing is; with all this babble I hear about Jamaica "having" to be all R160 really soon, like shutdown type of soon, for some magical not-there-yet CBTC reason, would the above idea not have to be true by default?

In other words, if (and I mean if because I don't know myself and I don't know if anyone else on this forum knows), Jamaica HAS to be all R160 in 2019, doesn't that guarantee a swap will happen between Jamaica and Coney, since the latter is the only other yard that has 10-car R160s?

If that statement is taken as true, then the following is probably the only logical outcome of this whole car assignment debacle:

CI gives at minimum 37 R160s to Jamaica to ensure it can perform all service with NTT. Jamaica then gives a small part of displaced R46s to run on the and the rest (~30 or so) go to the . The   and give some R68s to fill the fleet gap on the , and the in turn gets some SMEEs. The is rather uncertain but let's just assume it'll get a mix of 4-car R160s and SMEEs.

Lastly (assuming they arrive on time), the 10-car R179s come on the and the gives the last R46s needed to make the all 600 foot.

In that case, we have this:

- R32, R46, R179

- R32, R68

- R46

- unchanged

- 100% R160

- R32, R160

- R179

- R46

- R68, R160

 

Once again this is all assuming the statement about Jamaica NEEDING to be all R160 really soon is, in fact, true. But until that's verified, I will stay cautious before jumping to any firm conclusions.

[Coney Island Av]

Keep in mind, that ALL assignments, whether speculated by us or planned by MTA, aren't final and are subject to change. However, they're not impossible to execute. 

We can't verify until, say for example, a set of said R32s pops up on X line, or Y line. 

But the assignment I'm about to post are just MY thoughts on the matter. It's might not be the MTA's, and even if it was, it's still subject to change. 

: R46/R179

: R32/R42

: R46/R68

: unchanged

: 100% R160

: R32/R179

: R143/R160/R179

: R46

: R68/R160

The R32s being spilt between the , and  should happen IMO because the  is simply too long of a line and doesn't really spend enough time outdoors, while the others are either fully NTT or run on lines that restrict R32s. Yes, the R32s do a better job at handling crowds, but the R179s will cut it, considering they're NTT. This will be just like the R188s displacing R62A from the . Obviously the  would be the best choice as it's almost perfect. But again, I don't wanna have this opinion to get flamed over forum users, considering the R32 speculation has had a pretty controversial past. The , meanwhile, doesn't spend much time outdoors compared to the , but those R32s are just there to make the  480 feet, and because the  is a much shorter line. But now I need to explain why this should happen. 

After all four-car sets head to the , that's probably when the five-car sets will start arriving. By then, probably around September-December 2018, 3010-3019 would have finished testing and would've entered service on the . The five-car sets could then replace most of the R32s on the , displacing them to Coney Island, as Jamaica/ENY will be fully NTT. Now, yes, the  won't be fully NTT, but it won't really get affected by the shutdown when compared to the . Besides, the shutdown will happen regardless even if lines aren't fully NTT. The  will also get NTTs in this scenario, though part of it will be R32s. 

As mentioned earlier, Jamaica needs to be fully NTT for QBL CBTC. In preparation for such, the  will become fully NTT, while the  is unchanged. The R46s on the  would head to the , while the ones on the  head to the . 

In addition, most R68s on the  will head to the  to provide extra service. The remainder of R68s can be used on the , or can be used as spare factors for the . The 50 remaining R42s won't be scrapped, but they'll all head for the . They could be split between the , however, someone mentioned earlier that R42s can't align with the car stop boards. 

Again, everything I just rambled on about are only my thoughts. Nothing is, or will ever be final, so don't take this too seriously.

 

 

 

 

 

[VIP]

Y’all just keep posting the same load of trash, it’s all just re-worded. We have a WHOLE YEAR to see some PERMANENT change and that’s only with the  /  and  lines. 

[R32 3838]

44 minutes ago, VIP said:

Y’all just keep posting the same load of trash, it’s all just re-worded. We have a WHOLE YEAR to see some PERMANENT change and that’s only with the  /  and  lines. 

He's becoming annoying at this point. Foamers want them on the while transit is putting them on the (A).

The only thing i would agree on is the R42's being on the (B). The other remaining R32's should go on the (G).

 

12 10 car R179's is not enough for the (A). Have 8-10 R32's to compensate with those R179's and R46's then they'll be good.

 

 

Jamaica being all R160's is happening, the swap would probably happen between this year and next. 

 

The will use a good chunk of R46's 

 

[VIP]

1 hour ago, R32 3838 said:

He's becoming annoying at this point. Foamers want them on the while transit is putting them on the (A).

The only thing i would agree on is the R42's being on the (B). The other remaining R32's should go on the (G).

 

12 10 car R179's is not enough for the (A). Have 8-10 R32's to compensate with those R179's and R46's then they'll be good.

 

 

Jamaica being all R160's is happening, the swap would probably happen between this year and next. 

 

The will use a good chunk of R46's 

 

Once again you’re pretty spot on with what may happen without senseless speculation and badgering. Thank You. However if East New York doesn’t keep the R42’s I really foresee them ending up at 207th Street. 

[U-BahnNYC]

17 hours ago, VIP said:

Y’all just keep posting the same load of trash, it’s all just re-worded.

That's debatable, but even if it were "trash," it always comes with a disclaimer that it's an educated guess and it relates to the R179. Therefore, our "trash" has every right to be here; nobody is forced to read it btw

Edited April 4, 2018 by U-BahnNYC

[subwaycommuter1983]

On 4/3/2018 at 12:03 PM, subwaycommuter1983 said:

And this goes back to a comment that I posted a while ago: More articulated shuttle buses!!!

Having all r179's delivered before April 2019 may somehow mitigate any potential overcrowding in Brooklyn. However,  it's the people in Manhattan who are going to suffer the biggest blow, especially those who live in alphabet city, where the  is the only train that serves the area. Also, a lot of people use the  for Crosstown service in Manhattan. 

Regardless of what happens with the r179's, I think the people in Brooklyn are going to be fine. They're just going to have to do more transfers between trains. That's it. And yes if the r179's aren't completely delivered before April, then the SMEE may have to stay on the . That's it. And like @Trainmaster5 says "Carry on ".

As a follow-up, I am sharing this link related to what I said the effects of the shutdown in Manhattan. 

http://www.ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/news/2018/04/03/l-train-repairs-lawsuit

[LGA Link N Train]

There was some earlier speculation so I'll jump in the pool this time. Note: I will only be covering revenue trains and not spares. And the train is not being affected by any of this so it's out of the list. 

Jamaica needs to be 100% R160 for CBTC and it has about 37-40 R46's sitting there. So there's two swap possibilities  you can knock right off the bat. 

All R160's. Assuming that the and share trains (which in total would be 63 revenue trains). There would be about 30 additional revenue trains. So in total. Jamaica needs at least 130 revenue trains consisted of 10 car R160's for CBTC. That's revenue trains total. This is under the assumption that the swaps with the and  so.........

30 trains consists of R46's

An alternate option would be to swap trains with the but that won't be enough trains to suffice for CBTC. But hang on. There's still 7 revenue R46's lying around. 

The currently uses 2 8car R32's, 4/5 R46 trains and 11 8 car R160's. Since we have 7 R46's lying around, we can Kick the 2 R32 trains and 5 R160's off, and the R160's head to ENY yard. So now the would loom lime this. 

11/12 R46 trains and 6 8 car R160's. 

Now let's talk about the ,shall we?

The 2 R32's can be recouped. So now you have 1 and .6 trains but let's move one to the and put an R46 on the

Now another 160 cam leave and head bound for ENY. 

The would look like this:

12/13 R46's and 5 8 car R160's. 

The and have Just earned 6 8 car R160's. So now they can send 48 R32 cars to Pitkin. So now you can make 

4 10 car trains but bow we have a 9 car train. So swap the 5 8 car trains between R32's and R160's and now we have

8 10 car trains with an oddball. So let's take the oddball out. So someone has to give one R32 to the oddball. 

From there this speculation goes on and on. Showing how mathematically complicated it truly is

Sorry for the long post.

 

[Ian Lennon]

The R-142 had a plagued beginning, and now have a higher MDBF than the R-142A's. The M-7's are very reliable, and that order was botched in the beginning. Hopefully, the R-179 will be as reliable. 

[Jemorie]

The  does not spend more time outside. The  to and from the Rockaways do. Plus, the R32s on the  can be stored at 207th Street Yard and Rockaway Park Yard, both of which are fully outdoors. It's not like the R32s on the line will always be in service full-time. 207th Street tends to remove them from service if the yard dispatcher wants them to anyway. It's not that serious. The R46s are old too and if they could not handle the , they would have never been the signature fleet for the line from the start. So this "ah man! the line is way too freakin' long for these old cars to run" is utterly moot at best. What makes the R46s so special on the  that the R32s can't run there anyway...

Having the  consist of a mixed fleet of R32s, R46s, and R179s is reasonable. And the yard dispatcher can remove one of the 3 particular car types from service along the line at any given time at any of the line's four terminals (207th Street, Lefferts Blvd, Far Rockaway, or Rockaway Park). It all boils down to how many trains in total are in passenger service along the line depending on the time of the day and schedule.

Plain and simple.

Edited April 5, 2018 by Jemorie

[R32 3838]

8 minutes ago, Jemorie said:

The  does not spend more time outside. The  to and from the Rockaways do. Plus, the R32s on the  can be stored at 207th Street Yard and Rockaway Park Yard, both of which are fully outdoors. It's not like the R32s on the line will always be in service full-time. 207th Street tends to remove them from service if the yard dispatcher wants them to anyway. It's not that serious. The R46s are old too and if they could not handle the , they would have never been the signature fleet for the line from the start. So this "ah man! the line is way too freakin' long for these old cars to run" is utterly moot at best. What makes the R46s so special on the  that the R32s can't run there anyway...

Having the  consist of a mixed fleet of R32s, R46s, and R179s is reasonable. And the yard dispatcher can remove one of the 3 particular car types from service along the line at any given time at any of the line's four terminals (207th Street, Lefferts Blvd, Far Rockaway, or Rockaway Park).

Plain and simple.

Exactly my point. The is local on cpw and in the bronx. The is a straight express meaning the doors stay closed and the cars stay cool. 

[Jemorie]

20 hours ago, R32 3838 said:

He's becoming annoying at this point. Foamers want them on the while transit is putting them on the (A).

The only thing i would agree on is the R42's being on the (B). The other remaining R32's should go on the (G).

12 10 car R179's is not enough for the (A). Have 8-10 R32's to compensate with those R179's and R46's then they'll be good.

 

I fully agree with this.