R179 Discussion Thread

[trainfan22]

They are SMS'ing the 42s also makes me think the entire 32 fleet will not survive the 179 order, I just can't see the TA SMS'ing cars that could easily be retired within the next two years...

 

 

Don't see the need to keep EVERY remaining 32/42 set. Banned from the South BK lines so can't run there... can't put em on Queens Blvd cause what if CBTC is up and running before the 211s get here..? Only so many trains you can add to the line... and also I'd imagine they could use the spare parts from retired 32 pairs.

 

 

A couple of 10 car SMEE trains to add service to the along with spares seems like the endgame for the 32s/42s after the 179 order is complete. 

[R32 3838]

They are SMS'ing the 42s also makes me think the entire 32 fleet will not survive the 179 order, I just can't see the TA SMS'ing cars that could easily be retired within the next two years...

 

 

Don't see the need to keep EVERY remaining 32/42 set. Banned from the South BK lines so can't run there... can't put em on Queens Blvd cause what if CBTC is up and running before the 211s get here..? Only so many trains you can add to the line... and also I'd imagine they could use the spare parts from retired 32 pairs.

 

 

A couple of 10 car SMEE trains to add service to the along with spares seems like the endgame for the 32s/42s after the 179 order is complete.

The R32's are getting sms'ed again ether by the end of this year or next year they are due for another SMS by 2017-18

[R32 3838]

And cbtc won't be completed until 2024 on QB since Thales got the contract

[Around the Horn]

Project Update:

 

The new R179 has reportedly passed the audit inspection, or is on the way to passing it. At this time all is going as plan, and Bombardier will continue to build cars for to accelerate delivery. As I previously posted and told everyone to mark my words, it will not take as long as the news told everyone it would.

 

Bombardier is building all of our new cars now, and any configuration changes that may be required will be worked into the cars parallel as they come off the assembly line.  Pilot due in 90 days. Total delivery still expected by summer 2018.

 

Full overview coming this evening! 

Excellent!

 

So the pilot will come around June 2nd. Any chance we get some NYCTF exclusive photos before then?

 

A more serious question... What is the testing schedule and the fleet numbers?

[ttcsubwayfan]

I think you need a refresher course after that bad joke sir. Their track record, despite slow starts, shows that their products go on to become some of the best in the system.

 

The R62 delay was because it was their first time building stainless steel cars and personnel from Kawasaki had to supervise. Those cars went on to have some of the highest MDBF during their prime.

 

I have no clue about the R142s, but any issues on the property were just growing pains.

 

Lastly, I don't know where people are getting that they are keeping ALL of the R32s. Even with the shutdown, that's still too many cars. We do not know how many R32s will remain as no one has ever explicitly stated that they all will remain.

 

I'm not talking about Bombardier's past trains, I'm talking about the issues they're having with products being built NOW, such as the Toronto Flexity order. They have demonstrated time and again that they are incapable of sticking to deadlines, why should I give them the benefit of the doubt? Yes, their products are quality, when they're in existence, and the Flexities are no exception, but it takes long - far too long - for them to arrive on property.

 

So forgive me if I'm skeptical that Bombardier is picking up the pace.

[East New York]

I think you need a refresher course after that bad joke sir. Their track record, despite slow starts, shows that their products go on to become some of the best in the system.

 

The R62 delay was because it was their first time building stainless steel cars and personnel from Kawasaki had to supervise. Those cars went on to have some of the highest MDBF during their prime.

 

I have no clue about the R142s, but any issues on the property were just growing pains.

 

Lastly, I don't know where people are getting that they are keeping ALL of the R32s. Even with the shutdown, that's still too many cars. We do not know how many R32s will remain as no one has ever explicitly stated that they all will remain.

 

 

I have delayed my post on the full overview just to dot a few I's and cross some T's. 

 

Now RTO isn't my specialty and all, but a lot of what I am seeing in these posts do not match the document's I have reviewed. I don't know where people are getting this "keeping of R32's" either. 

 

And the first 3 sets to be delivered will all be 10 car sets by the way....... I will finish my post when I confirm a few more things. The first 10 car production set (after the pilot) is due February 2017.

 

MTA is doing something similar to the accelerated delivery of buses we have seen lately. The 2nd 10 car set is in production now, 20 cars will be complete prior to the pilot actually finishing testing.

[GojiMet86]

Those are not rumors, those are made up stuff that railfans would desperately want to see. When one railfan starts talking to another railfan about what they would like to see, eventually it becomes a rumor.

[LTA1992]

I'm not talking about Bombardier's past trains, I'm talking about the issues they're having with products being built NOW, such as the Toronto Flexity order. They have demonstrated time and again that they are incapable of sticking to deadlines, why should I give them the benefit of the doubt? Yes, their products are quality, when they're in existence, and the Flexities are no exception, but it takes long - far too long - for them to arrive on property.

 

So forgive me if I'm skeptical that Bombardier is picking up the pace.

They already have committed and are building extra cars as we speak. We knew this a few months ago, and again in detail during the January Board Meeting that they are building several production cars NOW so that when it is time to deliver them, there are no more delays.

 

Your skepticism does not trump the facts. 

[ttcsubwayfan]

Bombardier tells us a lot of things. What they promise does not necessarily guarantee that that will be met.

 

There was a comment on the Second Avenue Sagas that outlines the problems with Bombardier in an excellent way:

 

 

 

For reference, Bombardier as a company is in BIG BIG trouble. Let me run down in order:
They threw all their money into the “C Series” commercial aircraft. It’s late, orders are being cancelled, they got beaten on delivery by both Boeing and Airbus.
In order to prop up C-Series, they’ve shut down their profitable Learjet division and stopped development on their profitable Global business jet division, destroying all the profitable parts of their airline division.
The profitable rail division is having its profits extracted to prop up C-Series as well.
The rail division is way behind on a very large order for streetcars in Toronto, due partly to an insane attempt to outsource parts to Mexico, and partly to a strike related to this outsourcing attempt.
They’ve already had to raise a large amount of capital (diluting the stock) and are trying to sell off part of the rail division to prop up C-Series.
And now they can’t execute the NYC Subway order either…

 

Which part of this is supposed to inspire hope? It's great that you're being optimistic, but you know... once bitten, twice shy.  Despite the fact that the R179s are not being built at the tragic Thunder Bay plant, Bombardier seems to have a whole host of issues with a number of car orders. The only thing the 179s have going for them is that their production won't be affected by the 7000 layoffs.

Edited March 8, 2016 by ttcsubwayfan

[Around the Horn]

Bombardier tells us a lot of things. What they promise does not necessarily guarantee that that will be met.

 

There was a comment on the Second Avenue Sagas that outlines the problems with Bombardier in an excellent way:

 

 

 

 

Which part of this is supposed to inspire hope? It's great that you're being optimistic, but you know... once bitten, twice shy.  Despite the fact that the R179s are not being built at the tragic Thunder Bay plant, Bombardier seems to have a whole host of issues with a number of car orders. The only thing the 179s have going for them is that their production won't be affected by the 7000 layoffs.

Your list is omitting the fact that Quebec had to bail out Bombardier just so they could get the Azur contract completed.

[East New York]

Bombardier tells us a lot of things. What they promise does not necessarily guarantee that that will be met.

 

There was a comment on the Second Avenue Sagas that outlines the problems with Bombardier in an excellent way:

 

 

 

 

Which part of this is supposed to inspire hope? It's great that you're being optimistic, but you know... once bitten, twice shy.  Despite the fact that the R179s are not being built at the tragic Thunder Bay plant, Bombardier seems to have a whole host of issues with a number of car orders. The only thing the 179s have going for them is that their production won't be affected by the 7000 layoffs.

 

The one thing that I will agree with is the fact that Bombardier does have an issue with deadlines. However, as a trained Aircraft Maintenance Tech, I am going to have to challenge your facts as the aerospace industry is my specialty even over buses.

 

Second Avenue Sagas need to stick to trains if they are going to be publishing false information.

 

1.) Bombardier is NOT shutting down their Learjet lineup. They only cancelled the Lear 85 program. (They only had 64 firm orders when they cancelled the project)

2.) Development of "new" GBJ's is only on hold. 4 models are still in the line-up. 

3.) There has been only 1 major cancellation for the C-Series and its a leasing company. (34 planes plus like 20 options)

4.) Boeing and Airbus are offering current and prospective customers deals that Bombardier can't compete with. For example, the major fight for all 4 top manufactures is United Airlines. Boeing say hey, skip all these new planes, we will give you 737 NG's at a sweat deal for deliveries just as the production line shuts down and switches over to the new 737 MAX.

5.) Canada does NOT subsidize companies or offer stimulus the way we do. (This bailout stuff is new) Hence Nova's shut down of the RTS line and exit from the US market a decade ago. They have to go it alone, and that is not always easy. 

6.) Bombardier is still among to top manufactures in the world for reliable trains, and planes. Late or not, their record of quality products stands for itself.

7.) No all-new commercial aircraft project has EVER been on time. The worse new-aircraft delay recorded in history go to Boeing for the 787, and Airbus for the A350, and A380. They both saw more than 400 cancellations because of program delays. Bombardier still has a better record even with the C-Series. 

 

Those are the facts. Not the BS Second Av. Sagas wants people to believe.

Edited March 9, 2016 by East New York

[ttcsubwayfan]

It was in a comment, not in an actual article. I don't know planes very well, you're probably right. But even if we discount the planes, the transit division is still an utter flaming fiasco. This quote in particular strikes me:

 

 

 

While Torontonians curse Bombardier's glacial delivery of the new air-conditioned fleet, New York, Kansas City and Cincinnati are also facing delays on transit deliveries.

 

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/transportation/2015/08/18/beyond-the-ttc-waiting-for-the-streetcar-is-now-an-international-game.html

 

Bombardier has a number of factories in the Americas but they all seem to be equally poorly managed. The Toronto and New York orders, which are built at separate plants are the best examples of that. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt if they have shown that they are trying to improve, but they need to start meeting the presently set out deadlines before I do so. If they couldn't even deliver the 20 or so Flexities which were supposed to be here by year's end (down from 80 or so cars), I'm not prepared to start believing that they will meet the deadlines that have been set out, either in New York or Toronto.

[East New York]

It was in a comment, not in an actual article. I don't know planes very well, you're probably right. But even if we discount the planes, the transit division is still an utter flaming fiasco. This quote in particular strikes me:

 

 

 

 

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/transportation/2015/08/18/beyond-the-ttc-waiting-for-the-streetcar-is-now-an-international-game.html

 

Bombardier has a number of factories in the Americas but they all seem to be equally poorly managed. The Toronto and New York orders, which are built at separate plants are the best examples of that. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt if they have shown that they are trying to improve, but they need to start meeting the presently set out deadlines before I do so. If they couldn't even deliver the 20 or so Flexities which were supposed to be here by year's end (down from 80 or so cars), I'm not prepared to start believing that they will meet the deadlines that have been set out, either in New York or Toronto.

 

This may be very true, however their record of quality products trumps all the speculation of what may or may not happen. The fact that the projects are still going to be on budget and no industry is immune to unforeseen problem.  Bombardier's competition with Airbus, Boeing, and Embraer are causing lots of issues that are trickling down to the rail business.

 

Either way, if our pilot slips past June, then we will have reason to raise more arguments. Until then, only time and an MDBF report of the trains in the future compared with the R160 will show us how reliable they will be. 

 

The only major issue now with the R179 is MTA trying to decide if they can fit CCTV into the contract without any further delays. MTA will also be compensated for the current delays.

[RTS9000]

Saw pictures of an R179 car being trucked to somewhere in NY (most likely Bombardier's Plattsburgh plant).

 

EDIT: pics, credits to original taker

 

 

Edited March 9, 2016 by RTS9000

[Javier]

^So their building the shells somewhere else and delivering them to Plattsburgh?

Edited March 9, 2016 by Javier

[RTS9000]

^So their building the shells somewhere else and delivering them to Plattsburgh?

 

Don't quote me on this, but they may be building shells at Thunder Bay and then trucking them to Plattsburgh - I think that car bodies are built and almost finalized in Canada and then finalized in the USA.

Edited March 9, 2016 by RTS9000

[trainfan22]

That Highway sign doesn't look American, and it looks the writing in the second line is in french. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if that photo was taken in Canada.

[Fresh Pond]

The photo is in Canada

[RTS9000]

I figured the photo is in Canada. I'm wondering if the car is being trucked from Canada to the US, or vice versa.

Edited March 9, 2016 by RTS9000

[ttcsubwayfan]

!!!!!!!

 

Flexity order = body shells built in Mexico, trucked to Thunder Bay

R179 order = body shells built in Thunder Bay, trucked to Plattsburgh

Mind = boggled

 

!!!!

 

Also, why would they be taking them to Canada?

[LTA1992]

Do you need a Snickers?

[ttcsubwayfan]

No, but thanks for the offer.

 

 

I don't even know why you're making such a big deal out of this, I was questioning Bombardier's bizzare choices of factories more than anything. That wasn't even a potshot at their inability to meet deadlines.

Edited March 9, 2016 by ttcsubwayfan

[Fresh Pond]

I think the first cars had the shells built in Canada, and everything else will be built upstate.

 

...could be wrong

[RTS9000]

I think the first cars had the shells built in Canada, and everything else will be built upstate.

 

...could be wrong

 

I wouldn't be surprised, since Bombardier's Thunder Bay facility specializes in building rolling stock just like Plattsburgh.

[Kamen Rider]

I think prototype trains might be exempt from "Buy American" because the prototype Kawasaki R160s came from the main factory in Kobe basically ready to roll.