Official MNRR/LIRR Short & Long Term Plans and Proposals-now & 2050

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

It may save money but LIRR won't do it after they electrified it. They spent too much money to can it. I would approve re opening shiinecock hills station for tourists and LIU

 

I think the trains should run rush hours only. That's what I think

[qjtransitmaster]

delete

[Nexis4Jersey]

This will service Long Islanders equally and faster

 

Updated Long Term - Long Island Railroad Map

 

https://maps.google....680528,1.674042

 

City Terminal Division

 

Atlantic Branch

Atlantic Terminal

Nostrand Avenue

East New York

Woodhaven Junction

Jamaica

110 Ave

Foch Boulevard

Locust Manor

Laurelton

Rosedale

Valley Stream

 

Montuak & Long Island City Connector

 

 

Western Network

 

Main line

New York Penn Station (Grand Central Terminal starting in 2019)

Sunnyside JCT

Woodside

Forest Hills

Kew Gardens

Jamaica

Hollis

Francis Lewis Boulevard

Queens Village

Floral Park

New Hyde Park

Merillon Avenue

Mineola

Carle Place

Westbury

Hicksville

Bethpage

Farmingdale

 

Port Washington Branch

New York Penn Station (Grand Central Terminal starting in 2019)

Sunnyside JCT

Woodside

Elmhurst

Corona

Mets–Willets Point

Flushing Main Street

Murray Hill

Broadway

Auburndale

Bayside

Douglaston

Little Neck

Great Neck

Manhasset

Plandome

Port Washington

 

Oyster Bay Branch

New York Penn Station (Grand Central Terminal Starting in 2019)

Jamaica

Mineola

East Williston

Albertson

Roslyn

Greenvale

Glen Head

Sea Cliff

Glen Street

Glen Cove

Locust Valley

Oyster Bay

 

Babylon Branch

New York Penn Station (Grand Central Terminal starting in 2019)

Sunnyside JCT

Woodside

Forest Hills

Kew Gardens

Jamaica

Saint Albans

Farmers Boulevard

Valley Stream

Lynbrook

Rockville Centre

Baldwin

Freeport

Merrick

Bellmore

Wantagh

Seaford

Massapequa

Massapequa Park

Amityville

Copiague

Lindenhurst

Babylon

 

West Hempstead Branch

New York Penn Station (Grand Central Terminal Starting in 2019)

Sunnyside JCT

Woodside

Forest Hills

Kew Gardens

Jamaica

Saint Albans

Farmers Boulevard

Valley Stream

Westwood

Malverne

Lakeview

Hempstead Gardens

West Hempstead

 

Hempstead Branch

New York Penn Station (Grand Central Terminal Starting in 2019)

Sunnyside JCT

Woodside

Forest Hills

Kew Gardens

Jamaica

Hollis

Francis Lewis Boulevard

Queens Village

Floral Park

Stewart Manor

Nassau Boulevard

Garden City

Country Life Press

Hempstead

 

Oyster Bay Branch Extension

New York Penn Station (Grand Central Terminal Starting in 2019)

Sunnyside JCT

Woodside

Forest Hills

Kew Gardens

Jamaica

Saint Albans

Farmers Boulevard

Valley Stream

Westwood

Malverne

Lakeview

Hempstead Gardens

West Hempstead

Hillton Ave

Stewart Ave

East Williston

Albertson

Roslyn

Greenvale

Glen Head

Sea Cliff

Glen Street

Glen Cove

Locust Valley

Oyster Bay

 

Central Branch

New York Penn Station (Grand Central Terminal Starting in 2019)

Sunnyside JCT

Woodside

Forest Hills

Kew Gardens

Jamaica

Hollis

Francis Lewis Boulevard

Queens Village

Floral Park

Stewart Manor

Nassau Boulevard

Garden City

Nassau Hub - East Garden City

East Meadow

Levittown

Hicksville Road - Levittown

Hempstead Turnpike - Farmingdale

Main Street - Farmingdale

North Lindenhurst

Babylon

 

Coastal Network

 

Far Rockaway Branch

Atlantic Terminal

Nostrand Avenue

East New York

Jamaica

110 Ave

Foch Boulevard

Locust Manor

Laurelton

Rosedale

Valley Stream

Gibson

Hewlett

Woodmere

Cedarhurst

Lawrence

Inwood

Far Rockaway

 

Long Beach Branch

New York Penn Station (Grand Central Terminal Starting in 2019)

Sunnyside JCT

Jamaica

Lynbrook

Centre Avenue

East Rockaway

Oceanside

Island Park

Long Beach

 

Rockaway Beach Branch

New York Penn Station (Grand Central Starting in 2019)

Sunnyside JCT

Woodside

Rego Park South

Woodhaven

Ozone Park

Howard Beach

Board Channel

Rockaway Beach

 

Eastern Divison

 

 

Montauk Branch

Long Island City

Penny Bridge

Haberman

Fresh Pond

Glendale

Richmond Hill

Jamaica

Saint Albans

Farmers Boulevard

Valley Stream

Lynbrook

Rockville Centre

Baldwin

Freeport

Merrick

Bellmore

Wantagh

Seaford

Massapequa

Massapequa Park

Amityville

Copiague

Lindenhurst

Babylon

Bay Shore

Islip

Great River

Oakdale

Sayville

Patchogue

Bellport

Mastic – Shirley

Speonk

Westhampton

Hampton Bays

Southampton

Bridgehampton

East Hampton

Amagansett

Montauk

 

Greenport Branch

New York Penn Station (Grand Central Terminal starting in 2019)

Sunnyside JCT

Jamaica

New Hyde Park

Mineola

Westbury

Hicksville

Farmingdale

Ronkonkoma

Medford

Yaphank

Riverhead

Mattituck

Southold

Greenport

 

Port Jefferson Branch

New York Penn Station (Grand Central Terminal starting in 2019)

Sunnyside JCT

Woodside

Jamaica

New Hyde Park

Mineola

Westbury

Hicksville

Syosset

Cold Spring Harbor

Huntington

Greenlawn

Northport

Kings Park

Smithtown

St. James

Stony Brook

Port Jefferson

 

Wading River Extension

New York Penn Station (Grand Central Terminal starting in 2019)

Sunnyside JCT

Woodside

Jamaica

New Hyde Park

Mineola

Westbury

Hicksville

Syosset

Cold Spring Harbor

Huntington

Greenlawn

Northport

Kings Park

Smithtown

St. James

Stony Brook

Port Jefferson

Mount Sinai

Miller Place

Rocky Point

Shoreham

Wading River

 

 

JFK AirTrain

 

JFK Airtrain - Trunk line

Jamaica

Liberty Ave

Linden Boulevard

Rockaway Boulevard

Federal Circle

Terminal 1

Terminal 2 & 3

Terminal 4

Terminal 5

Terminal 7

Terminal 8

 

JFK Airtrain - Howard Beach Branch

Howard Beach

Lefferts Boulevard

Federal Circle

Terminal 1

Terminal 2 & 3

Terminal 4

Terminal 5

Terminal 7

Terminal 8

 

JFK Airtrain - Howard Beach - Jamaica line

Howard Beach

Lefferts Boulevard

Rockaway Boulevard

Linden Boulevard

Liberty Ave

Jamaica

[kentsfield]

thats why i think diesel service on the port jefferson line is fine, they have their peak trains for penn station, the rest go to hunterspoint or long island city, i think double tracking would do more for service than electrifying it, since even if its electrified, itll run into the same bottlenecks it currently has

 

I know people like being sentimental about keeping diesels around but the 4 diesel lines hemorrhage money. Expanding diesel service would increase the liability PJ is now. Electrifying PJ and Oyster Bay would cut 100 million dollars off the yearly LIRR operating budget using Huntington and KO as a rough guideline for electric operating costs. Adding in the "Sparks" effect ridership; this should of been a higher priority than ESA which is undeniably important but does nothing to cut operating costs.

[Andres]

All I Can Say Is

 

Restore The LIRR Bay Ridge Line

 

Remodel The Long Island City Station To Service At Least Six Cars Instead Of Two

 

Provide Round The Clock Through Service From The Outermost Lines Say The Ronkonkoma And Montuak Lines,

At Least 20 Daily Round Trips, 10 From Both Lines Going Past Jamaica. And i Mean All Day, Not Just Rush Hour As That Is The Current Operation.

 

Link The Port Washington Line With The Rest Of The System With A Wye, So When Service To Penn Station Is Disrupted Trains Have An Alternate Destination.

 

And Finally

 

Cut The Line Shown In The Pic Below. Highlighted In Red

I Mean Why Need That Line When You Have The Mainline, Highlighted In Green.

 

 

But i guess some of these idea's are impractical

[LIRR 154]

 

I know people like being sentimental about keeping diesels around but the 4 diesel lines hemorrhage money. Expanding diesel service would increase the liability PJ is now. Electrifying PJ and Oyster Bay would cut 100 million dollars off the yearly LIRR operating budget using Huntington and KO as a rough guideline for electric operating costs. Adding in the "Sparks" effect ridership; this should of been a higher priority than ESA which is undeniably important but does nothing to cut operating costs.

 

More electricfying lines means more maintenance faculties means more land . And where will you put these faculties at ? NIMBY's already beefed with putting one near PJ and Babylon yards and told the LIRR no. Hillside is already over used and the Archer Street Shop will be in full service once ESA is functional. Leave the diesel lines alone. People in the suburbs like the suburban feel and atmosphere. They don't want trains flying back and forth on a third rail like a subway. Property value will go down ,and nimby's would be more miserable.

[kentsfield]

More electricfying lines means more maintenance faculties means more land . And where will you put these faculties at ? NIMBY's already beefed with putting one near PJ and Babylon yards and told the LIRR no. Hillside is already over used and the Archer Street Shop will be in full service once ESA is functional. Leave the diesel lines alone. People in the suburbs like the suburban feel and atmosphere. They don't want trains flying back and forth on a third rail like a subway. Property value will go down ,and nimby's would be more miserable.

 

You're way off base on the NIMBYs. They are opposed to the location of the yard being in smithtown and not electrification. They don't want electrification to be held hostage to a railyard. Do you really think people enjoy driving long distances to Ronkonkoma and Huntington to avoid the diesels? Nobody enjoys waiting 5-10 minutes at Huntington in the cold of winter for a transfer to a diesel.

 

I really can't see how 1 to 1 replacing diesels with EMUs is going to compromise suburban life. Would you prefer catenary trains since that's not a "subway"? Somehow property values are going to go down with quiet and dependable EMUs(365,000 MBDF vs 15,000 for a diesel) ,a single seat ride and a faster commute time to NYC. I don't know if you've looked at some of the trackside land on the PJ branch but around Smithtown's tracks there is a swamp with rusting abandoned cars and at various points there are numerous light industrial facilities. None of that can be worth much and likely have waste issues.

 

No matter what the diesels need to go. They are an enormous financial liability on the balance sheet of the MTA. With PJ ,OB and i suppose Montauk to Speonk electrified, the infamously unreliable diesel locomotives can be disposed of. Greenport and montauk's remainder long distances will never be viable short of KO becoming Semi-HSR and DMUs on those branches will keep costs down. A healthy LIRR can't afford to have farebox ratios of 12%(Greenport), 17%(Montauk) , 23% (Port Jefferson), 24% (Oyster Bay) for the sake of NIMBY's.

[LIRR 154]

Never going to happened. Dispose the diesels in the Northeast where winters can harsh and storms already proven can knock out service will be a giant cluster fuk nightmare waiting to happened. Once the third rails covered and you need to move many people while you try to get the system back on line with work engines , c 3's and D 30's come into play. Electric is not always the best answer with the geography Long Island has. Now have the D30 exactly lived up to their top performance , No. But that's an equipment issue not diesel power. As far as the nimbys go , they have a lot of say since the LIRR is more under NY state control then MTA. They beef and gripe to their local state politicians,.the RR will pay attention. A RR isn't RR with the whole system electrified. It's a long distance subway. No way will LIRR brass let that happened to the oldest RR in the country,and as a employee I would hate that to happened as well. Now I agree that the East end do need better service , In my opinion better tracking and more reliable diesels. Maybe order a couple of Gennies or BL20's. But the evidence of how fragile the system can be at times when the power goes out, adding more would just be asking for trouble.

[kentsfield]

Diesel power MDBF IS fundamentally no matter how well engineered is going to have a significantly lower MDBF since the diesel electric engine itself has significantly more points of failure than an electric unit. Diesels are obviously still the best choice for recovering and maintaining the system but its really questionable to continue using diesel locomotives for passenger service.

" RR isn't RR with the whole system electrified. It's a long distance subway. No way will LIRR brass let that happened to the oldest RR in the country,and as a employee I would hate that to happened as well "

This is ironically similar to what some people said about the displacement of steam locomotives with diesel locomotives. Most of what i said is going to happen. The PJ branch is still in the plans to be electrified after ESA. Greenport and Speonk-Montauk will be DMU territory. That is a significant decrease in diesel locomotive usage.

 

How does electrification disqualify the LIRR from being a real RR? You do realize BNSF is flirting with large scale electrification. Theres no way anyone is going to call BNSF a subway. What is so shameful about electricity?

[LIRR 154]

When the **** hits the fan , how is it questionable to not have something to move people. You don't take risks like that as commuter rails ,especially in the case of LI. And come on, you can't compare going from Steam to Diesel to Diesel to straight electricfying. Two power sources to a locomotive to non locomotive MU is apples and oranges. Your giving the electric units a lot of credit ,where if you don't work in a shop you don't actually see MU pairs back and forth out of Hillside more then the C3's. As far as plans goes , no need to expand on that because plans and the RR are like distant ideas and in other words I'll believe it when I will see it. Same goes for flirting. Derek Jeter flirted with the Red Sox, but it was laughed at more then even the slight of seriousness. You still haven't answer my question. When the power goes out and people are stranded , how are they going to be moved? And also diesel parts are easier to maintain and machined then MU repairs. You want to take a guess who spends more time in the pit?

[qjtransitmaster]

Both of you

Diesel power MDBF IS fundamentally no matter how well engineered is going to have a significantly lower MDBF since the diesel electric engine itself has significantly more points of failure than an electric unit. Diesels are obviously still the best choice for recovering and maintaining the system but its really questionable to continue using diesel locomotives for passenger service.

" RR isn't RR with the whole system electrified. It's a long distance subway. No way will LIRR brass let that happened to the oldest RR in the country,and as a employee I would hate that to happened as well "

This is ironically similar to what some people said about the displacement of steam locomotives with diesel locomotives. Most of what i said is going to happen. The PJ branch is still in the plans to be electrified after ESA. Greenport and Speonk-Montauk will be DMU territory. That is a significant decrease in diesel locomotive usage.

 

How does electrification disqualify the LIRR from being a real RR? You do realize BNSF is flirting with large scale electrification. Theres no way anyone is going to call BNSF a subway. What is so shameful about electricity?

 

You have a point electrification of oyster bay would actually skyrocket it's ridership due to increased speed so people will not shun it so badly. People literally AVOID the Oyster bay line by driving to mineola or hicksville due to the fact that it's diesel electrification eliminates this problem. Plus I think electrification and side passing or dual tracking of the PJ line should have been a higher priority than the SAS.

Never going to happened. Dispose the diesels in the Northeast where winters can harsh and storms already proven can knock out service will be a giant cluster fuk nightmare waiting to happened. Once the third rails covered and you need to move many people while you try to get the system back on line with work engines , c 3's and D 30's come into play. Electric is not always the best answer with the geography Long Island has. Now have the D30 exactly lived up to their top performance , No. But that's an equipment issue not diesel power. As far as the nimbys go , they have a lot of say since the LIRR is more under NY state control then MTA. They beef and gripe to their local state politicians,.the RR will pay attention. A RR isn't RR with the whole system electrified. It's a long distance subway. No way will LIRR brass let that happened to the oldest RR in the country,and as a employee I would hate that to happened as well. Now I agree that the East end do need better service , In my opinion better tracking and more reliable diesels. Maybe order a couple of Gennies or BL20's. But the evidence of how fragile the system can be at times when the power goes out, adding more would just be asking for trouble.

 

True full electrification is overkill and diesels can be used to provide emergency service. I believe LIRR should consider natural gas locomotives or like NJT get dual mode units eliminating the problem altogether allowing a dual-mode to replace a diesel and EMU so 1 train replaces 2 and is able to switch to electric strengthening your side of the argument.

[kentsfield]

Sweden's railway system is 80 percent electric. They have far worse winters than LI will ever have and they were not deterred from electrification. You aren't looking at the bigger picture. Diesel fuel is not cheap. The MTA is bought 250 million dollars worth of diesel last year alone. The ~9000 EMUs of the LIRR+MN +NYC Subway bought 360 million dollars in electric power last year.Train maintenance is not a big cost for the MTA with the entire maintenance budget being 600 million dollars for all divisions of the MTA.

[LIRR 154]

Sweden's railway system is 80 percent electric. They have far worse winters than LI will ever have and they were not deterred from electrification. You aren't looking at the bigger picture. Diesel fuel is not cheap. The MTA is bought 250 million dollars worth of diesel last year alone. The ~9000 EMUs of the LIRR+MN +NYC Subway bought 360 million dollars in electric power last year.Train maintenance is not a big cost for the MTA with the entire maintenance budget being 600 million dollars for all divisions of the MTA.

 

Only problem is this isn't Sweden . LI is also subject to hurricanes, nore easterns, heat waves and summer storms. Geography ,system ridership and budget are far apart. No diesel fuel isn't cheap, but when it comes to power they can rely on, NY state ,CT and MTA is going to take that risk. When it comes to the MTA and federal, safety comes before cost. And that's a fact. Also MTA is not paying 250 million dollars by itself for diesel fuel. When it comes to both RR , states and federal comes into play.

[qjtransitmaster]

Only problem is this isn't Sweden . LI is also subject to hurricanes, nore easterns, heat waves and summer storms. Geography ,system ridership and budget are far apart. No diesel fuel isn't cheap, but when it comes to power they can rely on, NY state ,CT and MTA is going to take that risk. When it comes to the MTA and federal, safety comes before cost. And that's a fact. Also MTA is not paying 250 million dollars by itself for diesel fuel. When it comes to both RR , states and federal comes into play.

 

I think you lost this debate buddy there are loopholes around such disasters. Called use the diesels for emergencies only. And keep greenport and montauk in diesel territory. with DMU small trains. Keeping the big guzzlers on montauk trains until patchouge but there is no excuse why oyster bay needs to stay in diesel clunkerville. PJ I can understand all that is needed is a side passing to allow extra trains then use dal diesel/electric hybrids to take 2 trains and replace em with 1. While Keeping the express service at rush hour.

[LIRR 154]

I think you lost this debate buddy there are loopholes around such disasters. Called use the diesels for emergencies only. And keep greenport and montauk in diesel territory. with DMU small trains. Keeping the big guzzlers on montauk trains until patchouge but there is no excuse why oyster bay needs to stay in diesel clunkerville. PJ I can understand all that is needed is a side passing to allow extra trains then use dal diesel/electric hybrids to take 2 trains and replace em with 1. While Keeping the express service at rush hour.

It's a difference of opinions. And this is all here say. As it go right now , no concrete plans are in the works to change the branches.

[qjtransitmaster]

It's a difference of opinions. And this is all here say. As it go right now , no concrete plans are in the works to change the branches.

 

True one LIRR employee jokingly said if it makes sense they don't do it!!!!!!!! When I asked as to why oyster bay wasn't electrified.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

 

If so, at the very least I hope the adds more-off peak service. 30 minutes is really crummy. I have to admit, I'm biased, coming off Long Beach trains on the weekend, the next train to Brooklyn isn't for about 20 minutes... meaning that, I could go on to Penn and probably end up on the same as I do waiting that 20 minutes. 20 Minute headaways on the Brooklyn line, just one extra train an hour, would be pretty nice.

 

If you want to get really ambitious, you could add in a few extra stations, maybe at Lefferts Blvd, Woodhaven Blvd and Crescent St. And slash the price of travel. Essentially making it a faster , but a little more expensive. Of course, you'd have to work out a system where people wouldn't be able to get a cheaper trip from Brooklyn - Long Island by paying for a ride, going to Jamaica, and then buying a ticket from

 

If downtown Brooklyn becomes more popular for both work and play (especially withe Nets and in a few years, the Islanders playing there), then the MTA should absolutely beef up service on the Atlantic Branch, add stations and price it the same as the subway (and offer free transfers to the subway).

[qjtransitmaster]

If downtown Brooklyn becomes more popular for both work and play (especially withe Nets and in a few years, the Islanders playing there), then the MTA should absolutely beef up service on the Atlantic Branch, add stations and price it the same as the subway (and offer free transfers to the subway).

 

The additional stations aren't needed just price it the same as the subway that's all.

[LIRR 154]

The additional stations aren't needed just price it the same as the subway that's all.

 

Pipe dream my friend. When you understand that the TA and LIRR only have the MTA umbrella in common and nothing else . That's when you will forget about this idea. Both are run totally different.

[qjtransitmaster]

Pipe dream my friend. When you understand that the TA and LIRR only have the MTA umbrella in common and nothing else . That's when you will forget about this idea. Both are run totally different.

 

You have a point in that regard.

[LIRR 154]

So you still want to get rid of the diesels? Guess who was the work horse these past few days and counting.At work I sure didn't hear a peep out of the MU's.

[qjtransitmaster]

So you still want to get rid of the diesels? Guess who was the work horse these past few days and counting.At work I sure didn't hear a peep out of the MU's.

 

No I said keep them for emergencies ONLY like this. But get rid of them for regular daily service only pulling them out in times of emergency. Meaning only for work and emergencies should diesels be busted out. They shouldn't be used as a daily passenger service for short medium distances especially on commuter rail that is wasteful long term. Full electrification is worth it in a long run however diesels should be a back up and no more.

[LIRR 154]

No I said keep them for emergencies ONLY like this. But get rid of them for regular daily service only pulling them out in times of emergency. Meaning only for work and emergencies should diesels be busted out. They shouldn't be used as a daily passenger service for short medium distances especially on commuter rail that is wasteful long term. Full electrification is worth it in a long run however diesels should be a back up and no more.

 

So you saying all the diesel equipment should just be sitting idle until emergencies. Would that be wasting money?? You know had to bring this topic yo with some of my co workers and I got laughed at for even bringing this notion up.

[LIRR 154]

I wish you can see behind the scenes on how much maintaining signals,switches and third rail systems go through. How one screw up at a block has a domino effect to to the next block and so on.

[kentsfield]

This never was about maintenance locomotives and the various diesel powered track work contraptions, but the revenue generating equipment. Diesels excel at providing the kind of flexibility that maintenance tasks require and electrics are ideal for railroads with significant passenger traffic. Choosing the right tool for the job at hand. Diesels work well for freight railroads because they have multiple engines and make no stops. A breakdown causing a 90 minute delay isn't the end of the world for freight, but to the lirr's only commodity, passengers ; 90 minutes brings out the pitchforks. Whats important are daily operations. Where the average MDBF 15,000 vs 500,000 miles is the relevant statistic and on an average day and not an outliers like recent events people have complete faith in the EMUs. Even now in the MTA's darkest times diesel trains pulled passenger trains aren't the saviors of MTA service during crisis because the same conditions that are keeping the EMUs disabled aren't hospitable to diesels either.