Official MNRR/LIRR Short & Long Term Plans and Proposals-now & 2050

[Vistausss]

Yes, C3's are the bi level coaches that the DM30 carries

[LIRR 154]

c3 what are c3s the bi level coaches themselves or the rails? DAMN so they bleed money hard why not replace em all with smaller DMUs. Then again port jefferson has high ridership making that difficult.

This country itself bleeds money,the state bleeds money, nyc bleeds money, people themselves bleed money they don't have. Get my drift. There are bigger issues then D30's and MNRR Gennies so called bleeding money bringing people back and forth.

[theaveragejoe]

wouldn't the purchase of more DM30s to replace DE30 be an investment which would reduce operating costs significantly?

 

 

Comes down to cost of Dual Modes!

[Jamaica Express]

The problem with the current Dual Modes (DM30's) is they are what we would call in the industry "Lemons", they have been problems from day one.They're some of the most unreliable locomotives in the country.

 

-They were delivered 5 tons overweight, forcing the LIRR to make last minute retrofits to several yards and bridges.

-They used to start fires everywhere (cause GM thought it would be a great idea to build the beam that holds the third rail shoe in place out of wood, I think they've since been replaced with Fiber Glass)

-The whole "one seat" ride concept of running service direct from Penn Station to diesel territory is limited by the fact that you must use an engine on both ends of the trains (cause one single engine isn't reliable enough to bridge third rail gaps in Penn) coupled with the low availability rate of the locomotives in general (due to the high maintenance)....hence why there is such limited direct service between NYC and Diesel Territory

-T/O's are told to switch to 3rd rail power in Jamaica, so if a breakdown should occur, they will be close to Morris Park shops, not blocking any mainline tracks and passengers will have other options in to NYC available. I have heard multiple incidents of power being drawn in the east river tubes and then all of a sudden it stops and they have to "diesel" their way out. They were originally supposed to use the 3rd rail all the way until they reached their diesel zone, but since a short can occur at anytime, most trips switch to diesel power as soon as they exit the tunnel (in the vicinity of Harold)

-In 2007, they had a MDBF of 15,000 miles (which is comparable to a mid 80's NYCTA subway car)...while the M7 had one of 356,000, I THINK the P32, the last time I checked is somewhere around 35,000

 

They've slightly improved over the years, but are still nowhere near as reliable as they should be, there has even been talk from time to time of scrapping them and having them replaced with a much better designed model (the C3 bilevel's would stay)

 

The best Dual Mode locomotives are clearly the P32's used by Metro-North and Amtrak...problem is..they're no longer in production. However to support any kind of service increase "one seat" diesel territory ride, a new MUCH MORE RELIABLE locomotive will clearly have to be purchased/designed. However, with the talk of extending electrification eastward on the "busy" sections of the diesel lines, any new equipment for these zones will most likely be DMU's or just normal Diesel Electric locomotives.

[qjtransitmaster]

The problem with the current Dual Modes (DM30's) is they are what we would call in the industry "Lemons", they have been problems from day one.They're some of the most unreliable locomotives in the country.

 

-They were delivered 5 tons overweight, forcing the LIRR to make last minute retrofits to several yards and bridges.

-They used to start fires everywhere (cause GM thought it would be a great idea to build the beam that holds the third rail shoe in place out of wood, I think they've since been replaced with Fiber Glass)

-The whole "one seat" ride concept of running service direct from Penn Station to diesel territory is limited by the fact that you must use an engine on both ends of the trains (cause one single engine isn't reliable enough to bridge third rail gaps in Penn) coupled with the low availability rate of the locomotives in general (due to the high maintenance)....hence why there is such limited direct service between NYC and Diesel Territory

-T/O's are told to switch to 3rd rail power in Jamaica, so if a breakdown should occur, they will be close to Morris Park shops, not blocking any mainline tracks and passengers will have other options in to NYC available. I have heard multiple incidents of power being drawn in the east river tubes and then all of a sudden it stops and they have to "diesel" their way out. They were originally supposed to use the 3rd rail all the way until they reached their diesel zone, but since a short can occur at anytime, most trips switch to diesel power as soon as they exit the tunnel (in the vicinity of Harold)

-In 2007, they had a MDBF of 15,000 miles (which is comparable to a mid 80's NYCTA subway car)...while the M7 had one of 356,000, I THINK the P32, the last time I checked is somewhere around 35,000

 

They've slightly improved over the years, but are still nowhere near as reliable as they should be, there has even been talk from time to time of scrapping them and having them replaced with a much better designed model (the C3 bilevel's would stay)

 

The best Dual Mode locomotives are clearly the P32's used by Metro-North and Amtrak...problem is..they're no longer in production. However to support any kind of service increase "one seat" diesel territory ride, a new MUCH MORE RELIABLE locomotive will clearly have to be purchased/designed. However, with the talk of extending electrification eastward on the "busy" sections of the diesel lines, any new equipment for these zones will most likely be DMU's or just normal Diesel Electric locomotives.

 

Why didn't MTA sue the manufacturer? are more reliable diesel electric locomotives in the market? What about the dual-modes NJT has I am sure MTA can get a 3rd rail variant? I think their highest priority would be to get newer locomotives.

[qjtransitmaster]

Green goat and GE evolution series locomotives will these create savings?

[Jamaica Express]

Why didn't MTA sue the manufacturer? are more reliable diesel electric locomotives in the market? What about the dual-modes NJT has I am sure MTA can get a 3rd rail variant? I think their highest priority would be to get newer locomotives.

 

 

Because the MTA was responsible for the mess. DE/DM locomotives were purchased because all the other passenger locomotives on the market at that time apparently did not have a sufficient braking rate to handle the LIRR's tight blocks. The trains that operate over the LIRR system have to have a certain braking rate (1.6 ft/sec), so this was incorporated into the DE/DM design, in simple terms, they wanted the Diesels to have the same breaking rates as the MU's. EMD offered the F59PHI to the LIRR but, the braking ability did not allow for 80mph operation on a short block railroad like the LIRR, plus tunnel, canopy clearance issues etc. also came into play. So they came up with a totally new design, which was the DE/DM's. When the new units were being planned the LIRR went out of their way to state how they needed custom designed engines to fit"the unique needs of the nation's busiest commuter railroad".Apparently "off the self" engines would not accelerate quickly in the "city zone" and thus back up the entire rush hour.So the MTA basically set themselves up by eliminating any possibility for proven design "off the shelf" engines. EMD pretty much blacklisted the LIRR after this order cause of the trouble these engines caused them. The P32's /Genesis locomotives could have helped the LIRR out pretty well, but the MTA did what they wanted to do anyway (and of course politics played a role in this) so an extremely problematic locomotive was the end result and of course all those who played a part in this decision are either long gone or retired.

[Vistausss]

LMAO. Jamaica Express just listed some points I was trying to make to LIRR154. Let's see if he's still gonna try to tell us otherwise bases on Jamaica's points...

[LIRR 154]

LMAO. Jamaica Express just listed some points I was trying to make to LIRR154. Let's see if he's still gonna try to tell us otherwise bases on Jamaica's points...

 

If you read earlier in this thread when I was conversing with Kent, I always said it was an equipment issue more then diesel power. I even said the D30's didn't live up to expectations. Look back then come back to me. Ok homie.

[Nexis4Jersey]

Threw out the LRT added in MNRR and NJT from North Jersey...focused on Urban Connections....like Newark , Lower Manhattan and Long Island City... The Updated Station by Station list which explains many of the lines will come later. There are Terminal Services and Through-Running Services which use the connectors....and branches.

 

https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid=215312482559953359515.000496c9cdea77cff2ae1&msa=0&ll=40.742055,-73.866577&spn=0.702318,1.674042

 

City-Long Island Ideas

Regional Connector - 16 Stations - 27.9 Mi - Projected Ridership : 120,000

Rockaway Beach Branch - 8 stations - 9.8 Mi - Projected Ridership : 45,000

Far Rockaway Branch - 7 Stations - 11.6 Mi - 2012 Ridership : 10,500 > 2030 Ridership : 21,000

Long Beach Branch - 5 Stations - 6.8 Mi - 2012 Ridership : 15,200 > 2030 Ridership : 25,600

Long Island Connection - 1 Station - 2.1 Mi - Projected Ridership : 2500

Atlantic Branch - 4 Stations - 9 Mi - 2012 Ridership : 25,800 > 2030 Ridership : 55,200

East Side Access - 1 Station - 3.6 Mi - Projected Ridership : 120,000

Long Island Downtown Access - 2 Stations - 2.6 Mi - Projected Ridership : 135,000

Metro North Downtown Access - 2 Stations - 2.2 Mi - Projected Ridership : 125,000

New Jersey Downtown Access - 3 Stations - 6.5 Mi - Projected Ridership : 95,000

West Side Side line - 4 Stations - 10.2 Mi - Projected Ridership : 16,000

Hell Gate line - 9 Stations - 14.6 Mi - Projected Ridership : 75,000

Hell Gate Connector - 1 Station - 3 Mi - Projected Ridership : 4,800

Main Trunk - 19 Stations - 31.6 Mi - 2012 Ridership : 150,000 > 2030 Ridership : 290,000

Port Washington Branch - 12 Stations - 14 Mi - 2012 Ridership : 47,100 > 2030 Ridership : 125,000

St. Albans Branch - 1 Station - 3.2 Mi - 2012 Ridership : 1,600 > 2030 Ridership : 5,200

West Hempstead Branch - 5 stations - 4.4 Mi - 2012 Ridership : 9,300 > 2030 Ridership : 15,800

Hempstead Branch - 9 Stations - 4.7 Mi - 2012 Ridership : 7,400 > 2030 Ridership : 17,900

Oyster Bay Branch - 10 Stations - 14.5 Mi - 2012 Ridership : 6,100 > 2030 Ridership : 12,800

Oyster Bay Branch Extension - 3 Stations - 2.9 Mi - Projected Ridership : 2600

Central Branch - 17 Stations - 16.2 Mi - Projected Ridership : 45,700

Port Jefferson Branch - 14 Stations - 33.2 Mi - 2012 Ridership : 7,200 > 2030 Ridership : 14,300

Greenport Branch - 15 Stations - 65.7 Mi - 2012 Ridership : 24,200 > 2030 Ridership : 35,800

Montuak Branch - 19 Stations - 78.6 Mi - 2012 Ridership : 5,600 > 2030 Ridership : 7,200

 

Northern Suburbs

New Haven line - 30 Stations - 61.3 Mi - 2012 Ridership : 120,360 > 2030 Ridership : 280,000

New Canaan Branch - 5 Stations - 6 Mi - 2012 Ridership : 5,100 > 2030 Ridership : 12,000

Danbury Branch - 7 Stations - 23.9 Mi - 2012 Ridership : 3,800 > 2030 Ridership : 18,000

Waterbury Branch - 7 Stations - 28.7 Mi - 2012 Ridership : 500 > 2030 Ridership : 3,900

Harlem line - 38 Stations - 82 Mi - 2012 Ridership : 43,200 > 2030 Ridership : 90,000

Hudson line - 29 Stations - 74 Mi - 2012 Ridership : 54,000 > 2030 Ridership : 84,000

I-287 Railway - 15 Stations - 28 Mi - Projected Ridership : 145,000

West Shore line - 18 Stations - 58.4 Mi - Projected Ridership : 45,000

Pascack Valley line - 18 Stations - 23 Mi - 2012 Ridership : 6,200 > 2030 Ridership : 18,400

Main line - 26 Stations - 96 Mi - 2012 Ridership : 20,100 > 2030 Ridership : 45,600

Bergen line - 8 Stations - 14 Mi - 2012 Ridership : 4,300 > 2030 Ridership : 7,400

Northwest Rail link - 9 Stations - 47 Mi - Projected Ridership : 15,700

Pompton Branch - 3 Stations - 6 Mi - Projected Ridership : 4,600

 

Western & Southern Suburbs

Morristown line - 26 Stations - 59 Mi - 2012 Ridership : 50,000 > 2030 Ridership : 95,000

Gladstone Branch - 12 Stations - 21Mi - 2012 Ridership : 4,500 > 2030 Ridership : 6,100

Montclair - Boonton line - 19 Stations - 27.4 Mi - 2012 Ridership : 21,300 > 2030 Ridership : 42,800

Boonton Branch - 6 Stations - 9 Mi - Projected Ridership : 7,200

Lackawanna line - 4 Stations - 37 Mi - Projected Ridership : 9,300

Raritan Valley line - 20 Stations - 45.8 Mi - 2012 Ridership : 12,100 > 2030 Ridership : 25,400

Philpsburg Extension - 5 stations - 19 Mi - Projected Ridership : 7,900

Philpsburg Connection - 4 Stations - 22 Mi - Projected Ridership : 4,200

Northeast Corridor - 17 Stations - 61 Mi - 2012 Ridership : 53,800 > 2030 Ridership : 150,000

North Jersey Coast line - 28 Stations - 65 Mi - 2012 Ridership : 21,400 > 2030 Ridership : 50,200

[Jamaica Express]

Threw out the LRT added in MNRR and NJT from North Jersey...focused on Urban Connections....like Newark , Lower Manhattan and Long Island City... The Updated Station by Station list which explains many of the lines will come later. There are Terminal Services and Through-Running Services which use the connectors....and branches.

 

https://maps.google....702318,1.674042

 

City-Long Island Ideas

Regional Connector - 16 Stations - 27.9 Mi - Projected Ridership : 120,000

Rockaway Beach Branch - 8 stations - 9.8 Mi - Projected Ridership : 45,000

Far Rockaway Branch - 7 Stations - 11.6 Mi - 2012 Ridership : 10,500 > 2030 Ridership : 21,000

Long Beach Branch - 5 Stations - 6.8 Mi - 2012 Ridership : 15,200 > 2030 Ridership : 25,600

Long Island Connection - 1 Station - 2.1 Mi - Projected Ridership : 2500

Atlantic Branch - 4 Stations - 9 Mi - 2012 Ridership : 25,800 > 2030 Ridership : 55,200

East Side Access - 1 Station - 3.6 Mi - Projected Ridership : 120,000

Long Island Downtown Access - 2 Stations - 2.6 Mi - Projected Ridership : 135,000

Metro North Downtown Access - 2 Stations - 2.2 Mi - Projected Ridership : 125,000

New Jersey Downtown Access - 3 Stations - 6.5 Mi - Projected Ridership : 95,000

West Side Side line - 4 Stations - 10.2 Mi - Projected Ridership : 16,000

Hell Gate line - 9 Stations - 14.6 Mi - Projected Ridership : 75,000

Hell Gate Connector - 1 Station - 3 Mi - Projected Ridership : 4,800

Main Trunk - 19 Stations - 31.6 Mi - 2012 Ridership : 150,000 > 2030 Ridership : 290,000

Port Washington Branch - 12 Stations - 14 Mi - 2012 Ridership : 47,100 > 2030 Ridership : 125,000

St. Albans Branch - 1 Station - 3.2 Mi - 2012 Ridership : 1,600 > 2030 Ridership : 5,200

West Hempstead Branch - 5 stations - 4.4 Mi - 2012 Ridership : 9,300 > 2030 Ridership : 15,800

Hempstead Branch - 9 Stations - 4.7 Mi - 2012 Ridership : 7,400 > 2030 Ridership : 17,900

Oyster Bay Branch - 10 Stations - 14.5 Mi - 2012 Ridership : 6,100 > 2030 Ridership : 12,800

Oyster Bay Branch Extension - 3 Stations - 2.9 Mi - Projected Ridership : 2600

Central Branch - 17 Stations - 16.2 Mi - Projected Ridership : 45,700

Port Jefferson Branch - 14 Stations - 33.2 Mi - 2012 Ridership : 7,200 > 2030 Ridership : 14,300

Greenport Branch - 15 Stations - 65.7 Mi - 2012 Ridership : 24,200 > 2030 Ridership : 35,800

Montuak Branch - 19 Stations - 78.6 Mi - 2012 Ridership : 5,600 > 2030 Ridership : 7,200

 

Northern Suburbs

New Haven line - 30 Stations - 61.3 Mi - 2012 Ridership : 120,360 > 2030 Ridership : 280,000

New Canaan Branch - 5 Stations - 6 Mi - 2012 Ridership : 5,100 > 2030 Ridership : 12,000

Danbury Branch - 7 Stations - 23.9 Mi - 2012 Ridership : 3,800 > 2030 Ridership : 18,000

Waterbury Branch - 7 Stations - 28.7 Mi - 2012 Ridership : 500 > 2030 Ridership : 3,900

Harlem line - 38 Stations - 82 Mi - 2012 Ridership : 43,200 > 2030 Ridership : 90,000

Hudson line - 29 Stations - 74 Mi - 2012 Ridership : 54,000 > 2030 Ridership : 84,000

I-287 Railway - 15 Stations - 28 Mi - Projected Ridership : 145,000

West Shore line - 18 Stations - 58.4 Mi - Projected Ridership : 45,000

Pascack Valley line - 18 Stations - 23 Mi - 2012 Ridership : 6,200 > 2030 Ridership : 18,400

Main line - 26 Stations - 96 Mi - 2012 Ridership : 20,100 > 2030 Ridership : 45,600

Bergen line - 8 Stations - 14 Mi - 2012 Ridership : 4,300 > 2030 Ridership : 7,400

Northwest Rail link - 9 Stations - 47 Mi - Projected Ridership : 15,700

Pompton Branch - 3 Stations - 6 Mi - Projected Ridership : 4,600

 

Western & Southern Suburbs

Morristown line - 26 Stations - 59 Mi - 2012 Ridership : 50,000 > 2030 Ridership : 95,000

Gladstone Branch - 12 Stations - 21Mi - 2012 Ridership : 4,500 > 2030 Ridership : 6,100

Montclair - Boonton line - 19 Stations - 27.4 Mi - 2012 Ridership : 21,300 > 2030 Ridership : 42,800

Boonton Branch - 6 Stations - 9 Mi - Projected Ridership : 7,200

Lackawanna line - 4 Stations - 37 Mi - Projected Ridership : 9,300

Raritan Valley line - 20 Stations - 45.8 Mi - 2012 Ridership : 12,100 > 2030 Ridership : 25,400

Philpsburg Extension - 5 stations - 19 Mi - Projected Ridership : 7,900

Philpsburg Connection - 4 Stations - 22 Mi - Projected Ridership : 4,200

Northeast Corridor - 17 Stations - 61 Mi - 2012 Ridership : 53,800 > 2030 Ridership : 150,000

North Jersey Coast line - 28 Stations - 65 Mi - 2012 Ridership : 21,400 > 2030 Ridership : 50,200

 

 

Just out of curiosity, how did you come up with these ridership projections?

[Nexis4Jersey]

Just out of curiosity, how did you come up with these ridership projections?

 

 

Some of those are state Projections which factor in population growth , jobs density, and investment potential along the line , along with connecting Transit Services... I just took that model and applied it to my proposed lines...i'm usually below the actually ridership...

[qjtransitmaster]

Some of those are state Projections which factor in population growth , jobs density, and investment potential along the line , along with connecting Transit Services... I just took that model and applied it to my proposed lines...i'm usually below the actually ridership...

 

what is this model exactly where do you get it

[Nexis4Jersey]

what is this model exactly where do you get it

 

 

You look at the Job population , Population density , Population within a half mile which is the limit of most PT users , Connecting Transit like Subway , LRT , Bus etc , then you look at the commuting patterns and where people are going....and thats how you get the projects along with adding up any future development sites within the half mile radius. Theres about 90,000 people who commute from Union County to Staten Island or Brooklyn or vis versa , there's about 50,000 who commute from Brooklyn to the Bronx daily mostly to Hunts Point or parts of Westchester even. Theres an Estimated 150,000 who commute from Long Island to the Bronx or Westchester this market would be easy to tap into by running services from the LIRR up to New Rochelle or Portchester or having other connecting services. Theres an Estimated 400,000 who drive into Manhattan from Long Island , New Jersey and Westchester on there way to important Job Hubs like White Plains , Long Island city , Brooklyn , Stamford , Hackensack , Yonkers and The Bronx this group would greatly benefit from an expanded system and through running.... Reducing the transfers boosts ridership.... As for Lower Manhattan service is needed from Staten Island , Metro North , NJ and Brookyln...all these direct connections would take pressure off the strained PATH , SI ferry which is not a good daily transit option in terms of speed and weather related incidents , and the Subway , 4 , 5 , 2., 3....by 2040 all these lines will be overcapacity.... So a New Network is needed. Through Running would take most of the Suburban Ridership off...

[Nexis4Jersey]

I will post the rest later...

 

Station by Station

 

Regional Connector

Croton-Harmon

Ossing

Scarborough

Philipse Manor

Tarrytown

Irvington

Ardsley on Hudson

Dobbs Ferry

Hasting on Hudson

Greystone

Glenwood

Yonkers

Ludlow

Riverdale

Spuyten Duyvil

Marbel Hill

University Heights

Morris Heights

Mott Haven

Northern Boulvard - Woodside

Queens Boulevard - Elmhurst

Ridgewood

East New York

Canarsie

Flatbush Ave

Ocean Parkway

Bay Ridge

St. George

Bayonne

Port Elizabeth

Midtown Elizabeth

Elmora

Cranford

Garwood

Westfield

Fanwood

Netherwood

Plainfield

Dunellen

Bound Brook

Raritan

 

 

Northern Connector Xpress

North White Plains

White Plains

Hartsdale

Scarsdale

Mount Vernon West

Fordham

Mott Haven

Northern Boulevard - Woodside

Queens Boulevard - Elmhurst

Forest Hills

Kew Gardens

Jamaica

 

Northeast Corridor Local

New Haven - State Street

New Haven - Union Station

West Haven

Orange

Milford

Stratford

East Bridgeport

Bridgeport

Fairfield Metro

Fairfield

Southport

Green Farms

Westport

East Norwalk

South Norwalk

Rowayton

Darien

Norton Heights

East Stamford

Stamford

Old Greenwich

Riverside

Cos-Cob

Greenwich

Port Chester

Rye

Harrison

Mamaroneck

Larchmont

New Rochelle

Old Rochelle

Orchard Beach

Co-Op City

Morris Park

Parkchester

Hunts Point

Sunnyside

New York Penn Station

Secaucus JCT

Newark Penn Station

Newark Liberty Airport

North Elizabeth

Elizabeth

Linden

Rahway

Metropark

Metuchen

Edison

New Brunswick

Princeton JCT

Hamilton

Trenton

 

Cross Regional Service

Philpsburg - Main Street

Philpsburg - US 22 / NJ 57 Park / Ride

Washington

Hackettstown

Mount Olive

Netcong

Lake Hopatcong

Mount Arlington

Dover

Denville

Mount Tabor

Morris Plains

Morristown

Convent Station

Madison

Chatham

Summit

Short Hills

Millburn

Maplewood

South Orange

Orange

Brick Church

Newark Board Street

Harrison

Journal SQ

West 4th Street

Fulton Street

Borough Hall

Atlantic Avenue

Nostrand Avenue

East New York

Jamaica

Hollis

Queens Village

Floral Park

Stewart Manor

Nassau Boulevard

Garden City

East Garden City

East Meadow

Levittown

Farmingdale

Pinelawn

Wyandanch

Deer Park

Brentwood

Central Islip

Ronkonkoma

 

North - South Regional Service

Southeast

Brewster

Croton Falls

Purdy's

Golden's Bridge

Katonah

Bedford Hill

Mt. Kisco

Chappaqua

Pleasentville

Hawthrone

Valhalla

North White Plains

White Plains

Hartsdale

Scarsdale

Crestwood

Tuckahoe

Bronxville

Fleetwood

Mount Vernon West

Wakefield

Woodlawn

Fordham

Harlem-125th Street

Grand Central

Union Square

Fulton Street

St. George

Tompkinsville

Stapleton

Clinton

Grasmere

Old Town

Dongan Hills

Jefferson Ave

Grant City

New Dorp

Oakwood Heights

Bay Terrace

Great Kills

Eltingville

Annadale

Huguenot

Prince's Bay

Pleasant Plains

Richmond Valley

Nassau

Atlantic

Perth Amboy

South Amboy

Laurence Harbor

Matawan

Hazlet

Middletown

Red Bank

Little Silver

Long Branch

[LIRR 154]

I'm confused ,are you combing all the systems together?

[Nexis4Jersey]

I'm confused ,are you combing all the systems together?

 

 

Yes and no , New Through running services will run along side of the current NJT , MNRR and LIRR services to bridge the gap in services....

[LIRR 154]

 

 

Yes and no , New Through running services will run along side of the current NJT , MNRR and LIRR services to bridge the gap in services....

 

It's a good imagination if they were all under one service. But there is too many equipment differences, political heads and crew rules in the way for this too even be a slight proposal. It's good to dream though...

[Nexis4Jersey]

It's a good imagination if they were all under one service. But there is too many equipment differences, political heads and crew rules in the way for this too even be a slight proposal. It's good to dream though...

 

 

While the Politic Heads might be an issue , the Equipment issue is rather mute as they do make and plan on order dual show and muti-EMU's which are in use in Britian for there various 3rd rail and overhead network. Now what are the crew rules?

[LIRR 154]

 

 

While the Politic Heads might be an issue , the Equipment issue is rather mute as they do make and plan on order dual show and muti-EMU's which are in use in Britian for there various 3rd rail and overhead network. Now what are the crew rules?

 

Different unions with different work rules. I mean the work rules between LIRR and MNRR is like apples and oranges. A lot to list. Now EMU's are a idea the LIRR is looking at. But I think they are really going to do their homework this time with a reliable builder to contract it too. They don't want the same EMU disaster they had before. That may take some time.

[theaveragejoe]

Why didn't MTA sue the manufacturer? are more reliable diesel electric locomotives in the market? What about the dual-modes NJT has I am sure MTA can get a 3rd rail variant? I think their highest priority would be to get newer locomotives.

 

 

 

Cause it was MTA's own faught, these were a custom order for MTA and the design was from MTA, EMD and its contractor Super Steel built them to the MTA specs.

[theaveragejoe]

Because the MTA was responsible for the mess. DE/DM locomotives were purchased because all the other passenger locomotives on the market at that time apparently did not have a sufficient braking rate to handle the LIRR's tight blocks. The trains that operate over the LIRR system have to have a certain braking rate (1.6 ft/sec), so this was incorporated into the DE/DM design, in simple terms, they wanted the Diesels to have the same breaking rates as the MU's. EMD offered the F59PHI to the LIRR but, the braking ability did not allow for 80mph operation on a short block railroad like the LIRR, plus tunnel, canopy clearance issues etc. also came into play. So they came up with a totally new design, which was the DE/DM's. When the new units were being planned the LIRR went out of their way to state how they needed custom designed engines to fit"the unique needs of the nation's busiest commuter railroad".Apparently "off the self" engines would not accelerate quickly in the "city zone" and thus back up the entire rush hour.So the MTA basically set themselves up by eliminating any possibility for proven design "off the shelf" engines. EMD pretty much blacklisted the LIRR after this order cause of the trouble these engines caused them. The P32's /Genesis locomotives could have helped the LIRR out pretty well, but the MTA did what they wanted to do anyway (and of course politics played a role in this) so an extremely problematic locomotive was the end result and of course all those who played a part in this decision are either long gone or retired.

 

 

EMD and GE or any other builder would make new passenger units but they would be custom built and cost more money with the tier III compilant having to be done on them and tier IV come 2015! MTA didnt want the P32 dual modes for the LIRR cause they start and stop slower and wouldnt have worked out since the stations on LIRR are closer together then on MNR.

[Vistausss]

Different unions with different work rules. I mean the work rules between LIRR and MNRR is like apples and oranges. A lot to list. Now EMU's are a idea the LIRR is looking at. But I think they are really going to do their homework this time with a reliable builder to contract it too. They don't want the same EMU disaster they had before. That may take some time.

 

 

They'll probably pick Bombardier and that'll bring problems again... well, it could bring problems. With Bombardier it's always a hit or miss. Sometimes they make reliable stuff, sometimes they don't.

[Jamaica Express]

Different unions with different work rules. I mean the work rules between LIRR and MNRR is like apples and oranges. A lot to list. Now EMU's are a idea the LIRR is looking at. But I think they are really going to do their homework this time with a reliable builder to contract it too. They don't want the same EMU disaster they had before. That may take some time.

 

As someone who has been working in the industry for roughly 2 years now, I'll tell you that what your saying is true. However, now that ARC (NJT project) has been canceled, ideas are seriously being kicked around in regards to "thru" routing Penn Station services to open up capacity. The Meadowlands football service ran between NJT's Secaucus Jct and Metro North's New Haven Line is sort of the first "experimentation" of what may be a future variety of services. Also, Metro North is HELL BENT on bringing service into Penn Station, so never say never...you'd be surprised about what proposals/studies are being drawn up that the public has no knowledge of.

 

 

EMD and GE or any other builder would make new passenger units but they would be custom built and cost more money with the tier III compilant having to be done on them and tier IV come 2015! MTA didnt want the P32 dual modes for the LIRR cause they start and stop slower and wouldnt have worked out since the stations on LIRR are closer together then on MNR.

 

The P32 "not fast enough "claim" was a poor excuse. Most diesel trains run express through electric territory anyway. The Oyster Bay Branch doesn't have much traffic or ridership, so start/stopping there wouldn't be a problem as once the trains Branch off at Mineola the line isn't sharing it's tracks with any other routes and the service isn't very frequent. All dual-mode service runs express from Jamaica to NY Penn (with the exception of one train that I think stops at Kew Gardens), all trains slow down going through Jamaica, so accelerating out of that station isn't something that's done "quickly" to begin with. The only electric zone stations served frequently by diesel service are Hicksville, Mineola and Babylon. There are very few trains that stop at other electric stations. So that was just lazy-ness on Service Planning's part and a perfect example of what happens when you let politicians who know nothing about rail service make decisions in regards to equipment purchases. The only railroad in our area who could have put forth this argument reasonably would be NJ Transit, they run a number of lines with stations that serve both electric trains and diesel trains, if anyone needs MU like acceleration diesels, it would be them.

[Vistausss]

And don't forget Jamaica. Also an electric stop frequently served by diesel trains.