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M-9 Discussion


East New York

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I understand your frustration with the M8 order, but I disagree with your idea to award the M9 contract to Rotem as the solution. At the same time that we've been trying to get the M8s in service Rotem has been working on the Silverliner V order. I've been following both procurements on railroad.net, and if you think we have it bad...

Their first prototypes arrived about the same time as ours did (early March 2010), but since then Rotem is way behind us; we've been steadily receiving new cars at a little over one married pair a month (I think from 9100 up to 9117 or 9119 have already arrived), testing the #*$&*% out of these cars, and finding a lot of minor glitches. What's more, considering the power complexity required by (MTA) and CDOT (750 V DC third rail, 25kv-60Hz catenary, and 12.5kv-60Hz catenary) for basic operations and the intricacy of the software and hardware required to make these things run, most of the glitches that have been found are things that make you want to roll your eyes but aren't serious flaws.

Rotem, however, sent three initial prototypes over to Philly in March... and that was it until the New Year. The next three cars Philly saw were delivered on 12/30, and they have the plant in their backyard. Not only that, but these cars were having far more serious issues including bumming out going up a hill, spontaneous brake applications, etc. In the initial bidding process for these cars, Kawasaki came out with far higher technical qualifications than Rotem and at an almost even price. Rotem only got the bid on a technicality and (supposedly) some form of back-room agreement involving the location of the Philly plant. Frankly, I want to see Rotem handle at least 2-3 other MU contracts without a hitch before letting them do business with us.

 

Rotem did sell non-MU cars to LA Metrolink. Pretty flawlessly too.

 

I hope MTA buys cars from Rotem. Rotem makes great trains.

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I understand your frustration with the M8 order, but I disagree with your idea to award the M9 contract to Rotem as the solution. At the same time that we've been trying to get the M8s in service Rotem has been working on the Silverliner V order. I've been following both procurements on railroad.net, and if you think we have it bad...

Their first prototypes arrived about the same time as ours did (early March 2010), but since then Rotem is way behind us; we've been steadily receiving new cars at a little over one married pair a month (I think from 9100 up to 9117 or 9119 have already arrived), testing the #*$&*% out of these cars, and finding a lot of minor glitches. What's more, considering the power complexity required by (MTA) and CDOT (750 V DC third rail, 25kv-60Hz catenary, and 12.5kv-60Hz catenary) for basic operations and the intricacy of the software and hardware required to make these things run, most of the glitches that have been found are things that make you want to roll your eyes but aren't serious flaws.

Rotem, however, sent three initial prototypes over to Philly in March... and that was it until the New Year. The next three cars Philly saw were delivered on 12/30, and they have the plant in their backyard. Not only that, but these cars were having far more serious issues including bumming out going up a hill, spontaneous brake applications, etc. In the initial bidding process for these cars, Kawasaki came out with far higher technical qualifications than Rotem and at an almost even price. Rotem only got the bid on a technicality and (supposedly) some form of back-room agreement involving the location of the Philly plant. Frankly, I want to see Rotem handle at least 2-3 other MU contracts without a hitch before letting them do business with us.

 

Isnt the software glitches ont he M8 similar to those of the NYCTA R160s?

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Rotem did sell non-MU cars to LA Metrolink. Pretty flawlessly too.

 

I hope MTA buys cars from Rotem. Rotem makes great trains.

 

Here's the thing with that: The push-pulls they built are beautiful to look at and highly advanced in terms of crash technology, but I can't find any flat-out performance data on them so it would be a good idea to hold off on calling them "great trains" just yet. Also, there is a major difference between a push-pull car (even a cab car) and a multiple unit. Namely, push-pull cars are only responsible for interfacing with the propulsion source but both the motive power and the "brain" of the train are in the loco with the cab car acting only as an auxiliary control center. This means that both the power units themselves and the systems responsible for making the power units respond to the controls in the desired manner are largely outside Rotem's responsibility to make. If you look at railroad.net, it is these things that the Silverliner Vs are seriously struggling with. If we were discussing the procurement of bilevel coaches then I would definitely like to see Rotem bid on it and perhaps even beat out the MLVs. However, their MU designs and products need more time to mature before they're really competitive with Kawasaki and Bombardier, and I'd rather not wind up with the rail equivalent of the Designline order.

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Well I wasnt referring to the push pull train sold to Metrolink.

 

But in general. They make great trains. They built the KTX trains in Korea, not to mention good majority of the subways.

 

I think companies like Rotem and Kawasaki has troubles because of the different sets of railroad regulations in US and in Asia.

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No , they will be made in Nebraska , only the Subway cars are made in Yonkers.
You are partially right.Lincoln plant is primarily car body fabrication,where Yonkers is the final assembly and testing site for different car types. Kobe japan facility doubles up as carbody manufacturing,assembly and testing where most of the R142A's were fabricated.as far as the M8, only the first 38 will be Japanese made, the rest are built in the U.S.A.
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You should move away from subway and learn some rails.

 

And what sets are you talking about?

 

This is to replace the M3s LIRR.

 

M3A MNR to early to tell

 

 

 

No thanks, especially with the M-8s having glitchs.. Why pick them..

 

its that one set thats in the Arch Street Shop platform which is near the Hunterspoint Ave Station

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You are partially right.Lincoln plant is primarily car body fabrication,where Yonkers is the final assembly and testing site for different car types. Kobe japan facility doubles up as carbody manufacturing,assembly and testing where most of the R142A's were fabricated.as far as the M8, only the first 38 will be Japanese made, the rest are built in the U.S.A.

 

It would be easier to just have the plant in New England or near DC or Upstate NY, Nearly all the orders come from Northeast anyway. And maybe Chicago. And rarely LA.

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It would be easier to just have the plant in New England or near DC or Upstate NY, Nearly all the orders come from Northeast anyway. And maybe Chicago. And rarely LA.

Which is why Kawasaki is in Yonkers,Alstom is in Hornell N.Y and Bombardier in Plattsburgh N.Y and Barre Vermont due to the fact they are near potential customers in N.Y,N.J,Boston,D.C and Philadelphia.

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Kawasaki Kawasaki Kawasaki...

Look at how bad they screwed up the M8s!!!!

 

I want this one to go to Rotem.

 

How did Kawasaki screw up the M8's?

 

"Glitch" is a much better term than "screw-up" to define the issues that the new railcars have had during pretesting. The problems encountered have been minor and a fix has been made quickly in each instance. Generally speaking, the New Haven Line's, and really all of Metro-North's infrastructure has some unique characteristics, and much of the M8's extremely advanced technology is new to this railroad, to North American commuter railroads and has presented a number of challenges to Kawasaki in the developing the cars and to Metro-North in adapting them to the existing system and vice versa.

 

Review your history of the purchase, development, production, testing and ultimate reliability in service, including MDF of any commuter railroad rolling stock. I don't think that there's been a single order yet in which equipment zipped through the testing phase without any issues and provided years of safe, reliable and relatively problem-free service, especially not since modern FRA regulations were enacted that have made testing a very rigorous procedure which allows virtually no margin for error. Furthermore, it's not often that the time it has taken for commuter railcars to go from the purchase order stage to running in revenue has been less than five years; it has been several years longer in some cases. The M8's were ordered in 2006, and were only 45 days in 2011. These cars are expensive, and the oldest of the New Haven equipment was in production and entered service while the Brady Bunch was still a prime time sitcom.

 

Relax. Be patient. Wait until a substantial number of the M8's enter revenue service before you go about making claims of anyone screwing anything up.

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They screwed up the M8's. Have you seen that front of the M8's? Even the M1's and subway R32's look beautiful compared to that ugly M8 front.

 

Woah woah woah chill your tits lol everytime something new comes out it's gonna look different then the stuff before and the same can be said about our new Silverliner Vs and people thought they were ugly but once they were out and people saw them they liked them so don't say it sucks until uve seen it in person and have been on and until then shup

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They screwed up the M8's. Have you seen that front of the M8's? Even the M1's and subway R32's look beautiful compared to that ugly M8 front.

 

Woah woah woah chill your tits lol everytime something new comes out it's gonna look different then the stuff before and the same can be said about our new Silverliner Vs and people thought they were ugly but once they were out and people saw them they liked them so don't say it sucks until uve seen it in person and have been on and until then shup

 

1, LMAO @ "chill your tits"

 

2. Imagine how ugly the R16/15s were to Low V and R1-9 fans. And lets not get started about the R62s to the redbird fans.

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Not true. I like different things, that's not the point. It's just the front of the M8's, that's my only point of critism. Further, they are beautiful. Those Silverliner V's are just plain ugly IMHO and I mean overall.

But the M8's should've got a more beautiful front, why not somethings like a mix of the front of the M7 and R160? :P

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Not true. I like different things, that's not the point. It's just the front of the M8's, that's my only point of critism. Further, they are beautiful. Those Silverliner V's are just plain ugly IMHO and I mean overall.

But the M8's should've got a more beautiful front, why not somethings like a mix of the front of the M7 and R160? :P

 

Can someone get the foamer a bucket he's standing in a puddle of drool lol and really u gotta stop hatin on the Silverliner Vs since uve never seen it or ridden in it now I have and are so nice to ride they even have a rfw. Now as for the M8s you get what you get so stop wasting your breath saying this and that about the M8s wether u want it to or not itll grow on you.

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True. I've never riden on a Silverliner V, but I can tell by pictures it's ugly. And stop attacking me for that, 'cause that is just my opinion.

The M8's front will always be plain ugly IMHO, but nevertheless, the M8's overall are waaaay better than the M2's already.

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True. I've never riden on a Silverliner V, but I can tell by pictures it's ugly. And stop attacking me for that, 'cause that is just my opinion.

The M8's front will always be plain ugly IMHO, but nevertheless, the M8's overall are waaaay better than the M2's already.

 

opinions are fine... its when u mention suggestions that it crosses the line.... things are the way they are, so there's no point fantasizing about how they could be different because its not going to happen....

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They screwed up the M8's. Have you seen that front of the M8's? Even the M1's and subway R32's look beautiful compared to that ugly M8 front.

 

Not ANOTHER railphile with a penchant for judging a damn book by its cover...

 

Did Kawasaki botch the M-8 order because YOU think that the front of the new cars look ugly, or is there another fact-based, water-holding argument that I've yet to hear and accept? Haven't you learned that beauty is in the eye of the beholder?

 

This is an example of one of the biggest differences between a lot of those people who love trains and those people who appreciate trains, though neither type of person is better than the other. People who love trains stand, look at and dream about the outside, while those who appreciate trains crawl into and look at, listen to and learn about the inside.

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Maybe one thing they could consider for M-9 is to give it three doors instead of two, similar to the Toshiba trains found in Buenos Aires.

 

6886.1236183766.jpg

http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/8/8/6/6886.1236183766.jpg

 

As for a manufacturer, how about giving a potential M-9 contract to Nippon-Sharyo/Sumitomo?

Edited by manrush
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Those things sure are beautiful :P

But 3 doors means less seating and A LOT of people travel with LIRR daily and some lines already have a lof of standing people, so to have even less seating, seems a terrible idea to me.

 

I think the manufacturer will be Bombardier again. They built the current M7's for the LIRR and the MTA and most passengers are loving them (the M7's).

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