M-9 Discussion

[Fan Railer]

https://www.facebook.com/notes/mta-metro-north-railroad/governor-cuomo-announces-18-billion-award-to-build-676-new-lirr-and-metro-north-/10151955398868322

 

New M9 Rail Cars Are Expected to be Assembled in Yonkers, Employing 1,500 People in New York State

 

Governor Andrew M. Cuomo today announced that the Board of the Metropolitan Transportation Authority has approved a contract with Kawasaki Rail Car, Inc. for up to $1.83 billion to design and build the next generation of rail cars for the Long Island Rail Road and Metro-North Railroad. The MTA expects up to 676 cars will be assembled at Kawasaki’s plant in Yonkers and anticipates up to 1,500 people will be employed in New York State.

 

“We have been constantly working to improve the state’s infrastructure and transit systems to better serve New Yorkers,” said Governor Cuomo. “This contract will not only make the Metro-North and LIRR more efficient and resilient, but the additional cars will be assembled right here in New York, helping create jobs and grow the regional economy. I thank Kawasaki Rail Car for their partnership and look forward to seeing further upgrades to our mass transit system.”

 

The cars will be used to replace 1980s-era M3 railcars that serve the LIRR’s eight electric branches and Metro-North’s Harlem and Hudson Lines and to expand fleet capacity for both railroads to allow for ridership growth. A portion of this contract and related development costs are funded with $355.5 million from the MTA’s 2010-2014 Capital Plan. The initial contract will provide 92 cars to the LIRR. If funding is available in the forthcoming 2015-2019 MTA Capital Plan and the railroads choose to exercise future options, Kawasaki will manufacture up to 304 additional cars for the LIRR and up to 280 cars for Metro-North.

 

The cars will incorporate the most successful and popular features of the railroads’ two recent electric car classes, the M7s that serve the LIRR and Metro-North’s Harlem and Hudson Lines, and the M8s serving Metro-North’s New Haven Line. The cars will have larger windows than the M3 cars they are replacing, automated public address announcements in car interiors and exteriors, and single leaf doors for improved reliability. They will also continue the M7/M8 configuration for heating, ventilation and air conditioning systems that has proven to be more resilient in extreme weather and more effective at providing customer comfort in all types of weather conditions.

 

"I am happy to congratulate Kawasaki Rail Car on winning the M-9 contract," said Senate Democratic Conference Leader Andrea Stewart-Cousins. "I have had the privilege of working with Kawasaki since they moved to Yonkers. Their presence supports the regional economy and sustains hundreds of jobs in the City's downtown. These are some of the reasons why I am proud to support them and look forward to many more years of partnership."

 

Assemblyman J. Gary Pretlow said, “This contract is good news for our state. With its highly reputable track record as the MTA'a leading and trusted supplier of new subway cars, riders who rely on Metro-North (and the LIRR) can be assured that the safety, reliability and efficiency of the M9 rail cars will enhance their daily commute. I am thrilled that Kawasaki Rail Car, Inc. will continue to serve the constituents of Westchester County, New York City and Long Island.”

 

“While we spend a lot of time and energy modernizing our railroads’ aging infrastructure, few improvements are more visible and more welcomed by customers than updating our trains,” said MTA Chairman and CEO Thomas F. Prendergast. “Our last major joint railroad car procurement produced highly dependable trains that have helped improve our On Time Performance and are providing years of reliable and safe transportation. We anticipate that this latest update to our fleet will produce the same positive results.”

 

As with railroads’ previous electric car classes, the majority of cars under this contract will be manufactured as “married pairs” comprised of two nearly identical cars permanently coupled together and sharing a restroom, cabs for engineer or conductor, and electrical systems. Each pair is designed to seat 221 passengers, eight more than the M7 pairs.

 

The MTA benefited from robust competition for this contract. The MTA, with the LIRR acting as the lead agency, initially advertised a Request For Proposals (RFP) for the cars in June 2012. Twelve carbuilders received initial RFP packages from the MTA containing technical details of the cars. After initial consultations, the MTA determined that six of them were qualified to submit initial price and technical proposals, and three ultimately did so. Best and final offers from each of the responding carbuilders were received in August 2013.

 

The proposals for the contract were evaluated on a host of financial and technical criteria, including price, percentage of New York State content going into the cars, and the percentage of U.S. domestically produced steel used in the cars. The winning proposer, Kawasaki, provided the most attractive pricing.

 

The M3 cars being replaced by the M9 cars entered service between 1984 and 1986. Upon their retirement, they will have served the region for more than 30 years.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Fan Railer

[lirr42]

Looks like we got some more confusion on this...I was under the impression the cars were going to be assembled in Lincoln, NE like the M8's, as Kawasaki's plant in Yonkers currently has their hands full with the R188 subway cars...

[Vistausss]

That front looks weird. It's a strange combination of an M8 front with an M7 front. Don't like it.

Also, is it just me or do the windows next to the passenger seats look almost identical to M3 windows instead of M7/M8 windows?

Metro North is included as an option. Not part of the original order.

 

Wrong. See the news from Kawasaki above. The M9's will also be made for MNRR.

[lirr42]

Wrong. See the news from Kawasaki above. The M9's will also be made for MNRR.

 

Actually, you're wrong.  That article immediately above is from the governor's office, and we know how thoroughly they check the facts.  The M9 base order will be for the LIRR only.  Metro-North will only be included for option cars if they so desire.

[Truckie]

Wrong. See the news from Kawasaki above. The M9's will also be made for MNRR.

 

News from Kawasaki above from the third paragraph:

 

If funding is available ......... and the railroads choose to exercise future options, Kawasaki will manufacture up to 304 additional cars for the LIRR and up to 280 cars for Metro-North.

 

Also from the announcement:

 

"The cars will incorporate the most successful and popular features of the railroads’ two recent electric car classes......single leaf doors for improved reliability".

 

Is this a successful or popular feature?  The problem with the single leaf door is if there's an issue with it you lose the whole door!  With the older double leaf doors, when you have a door problem and have to dog out the door you still have the other leaf.

 

I personally will be surprised if they get manufactured in Yonkers.  Just because there is a plant there doesn't mean that is where it will happen...  but then again, the politicians know everything!

Edited September 19, 2013 by Truckie

[Via Garibaldi 8]

News from Kawasaki above from the third paragraph:

 

If funding is available ......... and the railroads choose to exercise future options, Kawasaki will manufacture up to 304 additional cars for the LIRR and up to 280 cars for Metro-North.

 

Also from the announcement:

 

"The cars will incorporate the most successful and popular features of the railroads’ two recent electric car classes......single leaf doors for improved reliability".

 

Is this a successful or popular feature?  The problem with the single leaf door is if there's an issue with it you lose the whole door!  With the older double leaf doors, when you have a door problem and have to dog out the door you still have the other leaf.

 

I personally will be surprised if they get manufactured in Yonkers.  Just because there is a plant there doesn't mean that is where it will happen...  but then again, the politicians know everything!

The real question is who is getting them... I think the Hudson Line still has some old ones left and I did not like riding those the times that I had them though the seats did feel a tad more comfy. I've been seriously thinking about switching to a monthly pass for MetroNorth even though I would only use it weekday mornings and continue with the express bus at night. The slow driving of the B/O's in the morning is driving me bonkers and that's taking into consideration how much I hate using peak Metro-North trains, even the newer M7 models.  Decisions, decisions...   As for the doors, I find them to be fairly reliable and open quickly even though it's just one door.

[lirr42]

The real question is who is getting them... I think the Hudson Line still has some old ones left and I did not like riding those the times that I had them though the seats did feel a tad more comfy. I've been seriously thinking about switching to a monthly pass for MetroNorth even though I would only use it weekday mornings and continue with the express bus at night. The slow driving of the B/O's in the morning is driving me bonkers and that's taking into consideration how much I hate using peak Metro-North trains, even the newer M7 models.  Decisions, decisions...   As for the doors, I find them to be fairly reliable and open quickly even though it's just one door.

 

What's the question?  If Metro-North Pursues M9's they will replace the M3 fleet and complement the M7 fleet.  They can be assigned to whatever train on the H&H necessary.  Naturally, MN won't have as much demand for the M9's as the M3's use is currently limited to just overflow during rush hour and Metro-North isn't embarking on any more service expansions anytime soon (don't say what I know you're all thinking, the M9's wouldn't be used for that).

Edited September 19, 2013 by lirr42

[Truckie]

The real question is who is getting them... I think the Hudson Line still has some old ones left and I did not like riding those the times that I had them though the seats did feel a tad more comfy. I've been seriously thinking about switching to a monthly pass for MetroNorth even though I would only use it weekday mornings and continue with the express bus at night. The slow driving of the B/O's in the morning is driving me bonkers and that's taking into consideration how much I hate using peak Metro-North trains, even the newer M7 models. Decisions, decisions... As for the doors, I find them to be fairly reliable and open quickly even though it's just one door.

The who would be the Harlem and Hudson Lines. There is no specific equipment for either line as it's one pool. A train you go into GCT on may go to Brewster or North White Plains next.

 

As far as doors, to the lay person single doors make sence as there is only one mechanism per door instead of two. The problem arises when a there's a problem with a sensor or mechanism with in the door. In order for the train to take power the engineer must have a light indicating all doors are closed. If there is a faulty sensor preventing this from happening the door must be disabled (even though it's visably closed). If for some reason both doors on one side of a car are disabled, that car can not be used.

 

In the older cars with the double panels, if one panel on each door is inoperable, the other panel is still operable and the door will still open.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Truckie

[Via Garibaldi 8]

What's the question?  If Metro-North Pursues M9's they will replace the M3 fleet and complement the M7 fleet.  They can be assigned to whatever train on the H&H necessary.  Naturally, MN won't have as much demand for the M9's as the M3's use is currently limited to just overflow during rush hour and Metro-North isn't embarking on any more service expansions anytime soon (don't say what I know you're all thinking, the M9's wouldn't be used for that).

Usually these orders have the option of being expanded and if they can get these cars at a good price and can fit into the budget, I say get more of them to replace the older fleet where possible.  Metro-North's ridership continues to grow and I for one certainly made my voice heard in telling them at the last MNRR meeting in Riverdale that we need trains to run later, even if it's just one more train out of Grand Central at 02:50 in the morning and my hope would be that we could eventually have it 24/7 service for Riverdale and the affluent river towns in Westchester (i.e. Dobbs Ferry, Irvington, Hastings-On-Hudson, etc.)

 

 

The who would be the Harlem and Hudson Lines. There is no specific equipment for either line as it's one pool. A train you go into GCT on may go to Brewster or North White Plains next.

 

As far as doors, to the lay person single doors make sence as there is only one mechanism per door instead of two. The problem arises when a there's a problem with a sensor or mechanism with in the door. In order for the train to take power the engineer must have a light indicating all doors are closed. If there is a faulty sensor preventing this from happening the door must be disabled (even though it's visably closed). If for some reason both doors on one side of a car are disabled, that car can not be used.

 

In the older cars with the double panels, if one panel on each door is inoperable, the other panel is still operable and the door will still open.

Ah well, I thought about the doors myself and for now they seem to be fine.  They open fairly quickly and they don't take the same beating that subway doors do since they're not making as many stops and you don't have people running for the train to the point to where you have to keep opening and closing them or opening and closing them because someone's coat is stuck in the door or some nonsense.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Via Garibaldi 8

[Truckie]

 

..... my hope would be that we could eventually have it 24/7 service for Riverdale and the affluent river towns in Westchester (i.e. Dobbs Ferry, Irvington, Hastings-On-Hudson, etc.)

 

 

Here we go again with your special trains for the wealthy.  I can assure you that if it was to every happen it would stop at Marble Hill on the way to Riverdale and Yonkers after because that is where the demand is. 

 

Maybe you would get lucky that they'll implement having different cars for the wealthy.  Of course prior to boarding you will have to show your previous year's 1040 and last two months worth of pay stubs.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Here we go again with your special trains for the wealthy.  I can assure you that if it was to every happen it would stop at Marble Hill on the way to Riverdale and Yonkers after because that is where the demand is. 

 

Maybe you would get lucky that they'll implement having different cars for the wealthy.  Of course prior to boarding you will have to show your previous year's 1040 and last two months worth of pay stubs.

lol... The "demand" is only at Marble Hill (aka Ghetto Hill) because it's an express stop but mainly because the train is there for the cheapos/poor types in Yonkers that can't afford the full fare to Grand Central.  It isn't about the wealthy or the affluent.  It's about who gives MNRR the biggest bang for the buck and you and I know who uses the trains the most and who needs them the most.  The affluent river towns and Riverdale don't have subways, so we need a quick way to get to and from the city.  The has done a nice job in marketing Metro-North in Riverdale, as I've seen a few new faces on the Hudson Rail Link buses. 

Edited September 19, 2013 by Via Garibaldi 8

[Truckie]

 It's about who gives MNRR the biggest bang for the buck and you and I know who uses the trains the most and who needs them the most. 

 

I agree and I do.

 

I work have worked many locals at all hours of the day, the stations producing the most riders on the lower Hudson are Marble Hill, Yonkers, Tarrytown and Ossining hands down!  In fact every day I see the same commuters that travel from Irvington to Yonkers that I would challenge to afford one of your $25.00 lunches. So what you are saying is to shut them out.

 

Spuyten Duyvil and Riverdale already has their special trains.  It's the peak hour Greystone zippers.  The front of the 7:28 pm GCT to Greystone local empties out at SD and the rear empties at Riverdale.  It stops at Marble Hill and Yonkers for some intermediate riders and stops at Glenwood and Greystone because it has to go by them anyway before the train turns at CP19 to go back south.

 

Regardless, it's not about the wealthy how come you brought it up originally? 

Edited September 19, 2013 by Truckie

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I agree and I do.

 

I work have worked many locals at all hours of the day, the stations producing the most riders on the lower Hudson are Marble Hill, Yonkers, Tarrytown and Ossining hands down!  In fact every day I see the same commuters that travel from Irvington to Yonkers that I would challenge to afford one of your $25.00 lunches. So what you are saying is to shut them out.

 

Spuyten Duyvil and Riverdale already has their special trains.  It's the peak hour Greystone zippers.  The front of the 7:28 pm GCT to Greystone local empties out at SD and the rear empties at Riverdale.  It stops at Marble Hill and Yonkers for some intermediate riders and stops at Glenwood and Greystone because it has to go by them anyway before the train turns at CP19 to go back south.

 

Regardless, it's not about the wealthy how come you brought it up originally? 

No one is saying that those stations would lose service.  I'm simply saying that we've been pushing for our fair share of service.  Marble Hill and Yonkers both have their reasons for the ridership that they get at those stations.  Those are hubs for multiple reasons (commercial hubs, hubs that provide jobs, transit hubs, subway access, etc.) but at the same time I would not sit by and watch the more affluent neighborhoods and towns not get their fair share of service.  Riverdale has 3 express bus lines which cut into Metro-North's ridership base (with me being one of those express bus riders who uses all three lines) and the river towns in Westchester that are fairly affluent are generally smaller in population, so let's not act as if they don't use their stations in proportion to their population size and transportation options.

[Vistausss]

Naturally, MN won't have as much demand for the M9's as the M3's use is currently limited to just overflow during rush hour and Metro-North isn't embarking on any more service expansions anytime soon (don't say what I know you're all thinking, the M9's wouldn't be used for that).

 

Unless the plan to electrify the last part of the Harlem line goes through (Poughkeepsie is willing to fund it) then they will need extra trains to replace the diesel trains because what's the point of electrifying a branch and not using electric trains? Of course they won't be finished anytime soon but still.

No one is saying that those stations would lose service.  I'm simply saying that we've been pushing for our fair share of service.  Marble Hill and Yonkers both have their reasons for the ridership that they get at those stations.  Those are hubs for multiple reasons (commercial hubs, hubs that provide jobs, transit hubs, subway access, etc.) but at the same time I would not sit by and watch the more affluent neighborhoods and towns not get their fair share of service.  Riverdale has 3 express bus lines which cut into Metro-North's ridership base (with me being one of those express bus riders who uses all three lines) and the river towns in Westchester that are fairly affluent are generally smaller in population, so let's not act as if they don't use their stations in proportion to their population size and transportation options.

 

Don't forget the Hudson Rail Link.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Don't forget the Hudson Rail Link.

Yes but that doesn't compete with MNRR.  The express buses do. The shuttle buses complement MNRR's rail service in the Riverdale community as a whole (Sputyen Duyvil and Riverdale stations).

[Truckie]

No one is saying that those stations would lose service.  I'm simply saying that we've been pushing for our fair share of service.  Marble Hill and Yonkers both have their reasons for the ridership that they get at those stations.  Those are hubs for multiple reasons (commercial hubs, hubs that provide jobs, transit hubs, subway access, etc.) but at the same time I would not sit by and watch the more affluent neighborhoods and towns not get their fair share of service.  Riverdale has 3 express bus lines which cut into Metro-North's ridership base (with me being one of those express bus riders who uses all three lines) and the river towns in Westchester that are fairly affluent are generally smaller in population, so let's not act as if they don't use their stations in proportion to their population size and transportation options.

 

I don't know what you're trying to say any more because you keep going back and forth that you want more service for the affluent communities but then back peddle when challenged.  

 

I'm done with this discussion and we should probably get back to the topic at hand... M9's

 

Unless the plan to electrify the last part of the Harlem line goes through (Poughkeepsie is willing to fund it) then they will need extra trains to replace the diesel trains because what's the point of electrifying a branch and not using electric trains? Of course they won't be finished anytime soon but still.

 

I think you mean the Hudson Line as that is where Poughkeepise lies. 

 

Having the capability to run electrics past Harmon would be advantages as there are times locomotives are in short supply.  If there is much more of a demand in service to Poughkeepise then it would be needed. Also if there is more crying from the upper Hudson's wealthy communities such as Garrison then it might be needed.  After all, they don't get a fraction of the service Riverdale gets.

 

Where did you hear that Poughkeepsie is willing to fund electrification?  They're crying poverty just like everyone else.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1. I don't know what you're trying to say any more because you keep going back and forth that you want more service for the affluent communities but then back peddle when challenged.  

 

I'm done with this discussion and we should probably get back to the topic at hand... M9's

 

 

2. I think you mean the Hudson Line as that is where Poughkeepise lies. 

 

Having the capability to run electrics past Harmon would be advantages as there are times locomotives are in short supply.  If there is much more of a demand in service to Poughkeepise then it would be needed. Also if there is more crying from the upper Hudson's wealthy communities such as Garrison then it might be needed.  After all, they don't get a fraction of the service Riverdale gets.

1. It's pretty simple. We're going to fight to continue to get more service for our community, as I'm sure other affluent communities along the Hudson will also do, and seeing how ridership continues to grow on the line, it would be wise of MNRR to look into getting the maximum amount of the M9 cars that they can afford.  I was not aware that those M7s are already 10+ years old, which explains why the interiors (leather seats) are starting to look rather dirty and decrepit , so in addition to more service, we would also welcome some new cars to serve the Riverdale and Spuyten Duyvil stations and perhaps some of those M7s can be taken in for rehabs (reupholstered seats for example) and get a sprucing up.  The seats appear to be dirty from simple wear and tear and not from any hooligans making a mess on the train, so after 10+ years certainly a little upgrade of the interiors would be good.

 

My point was that those communities who fought for more service would have a keen interest in also receiving faster service where possible and if they're the ones responsible for the new service, it would make sense for them to look out for the interests of their communities.

2. 

Edited September 19, 2013 by Via Garibaldi 8

[R32 3838]

I like the MNRR one better, the LIRR looks bland

[R32 3838]

1. It's pretty simple. We're going to fight to continue to get more service for our community, as I'm sure other affluent communities along the Hudson will also do, and seeing how ridership continues to grow on the line, it would be wise of MNRR to look into getting the maximum amount of the M9 cars that they can afford. I was not aware that those M7s are already 10+ years old, which explains why the interiors (leather seats) are starting to look rather dirty and decrepit , so in addition to more service, we would also welcome some new cars to serve the Riverdale and Spuyten Duyvil stations and perhaps some of those M7s can be taken in for rehabs (reupholstered seats for example) and get a sprucing up. The seats appear to be dirty from simple wear and tear and not from any hooligans making a mess on the train, so after 10+ years certainly a little upgrade of the interiors would be good.

 

My point was that those communities who fought for more service would have a keen interest in also receiving faster service where possible and if they're the ones responsible for the new service, it would make sense for them to look out for the interests of their communities.

2.

Honestly MNRR should get most of this order and they should give the M7s to LIRR all they have to do is change the 3rd rail shoes

[lirr42]

Unless the plan to electrify the last part of the HarlemHUDSON line goes through (Poughkeepsie is willing to fund it) then they will need extra trains to replace the diesel trains because what's the point of electrifying a branch and not using electric trains? Of course they won't be finished anytime soon but still.

 

Without going through all of this again, electrifying the Empire Connection will never happen.  To much money to benefit too few people.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Honestly MNRR should get most of this order and they should give the M7s to LIRR all they have to do is change the 3rd rail shoes

LOL! I'd be all for that.  We can give Lawng Eyeland our left overs. 

[Grand Concourse]

Honestly MNRR should get most of this order and they should give the M7s to LIRR all they have to do is change the 3rd rail shoes

M7 seats suck. I dunno how the M8 ones are, but I'd rather it be reversed. Send some M7s to MNCR and give the LIRR all the M9s.

[lirr42]

Honestly MNRR should get most of this order and they should give the M7s to LIRR all they have to do is change the 3rd rail shoes

 

If only it were that simple!  Not only would they have to change the third rail shoes but also do, oh, many, many other things....

[Via Garibaldi 8]

M7 seats suck. I dunno how the M8 ones are, but I'd rather it be reversed. Send some M7s to MNCR and give the LIRR all the M9s.

   I can agree with you about the M7 seats... I hate those damn rubber arm rests.  I feel like they damage my Italian dress shirts somehow by wearing out the elbow area somehow. 

Edited September 20, 2013 by Via Garibaldi 8

[Grand Concourse]

Lol, honestly never had that issue with the armrests, but i avoid the 2 seaters because I was crushed in this one time years ago by this other guy, who wasn't that much bigger than me. I forgot where to where, but it wasn't a comfortable ride for at least 30min or something. I never had that sort of issue on the m1/3 seats. This is why the c3 seats are so good and i rather all trains had 2x2 seats so 4 ppl sits comfortably over 5 cramped ppl (and most of the time that middle seat on the 3 seaters are empty anyway). The hell with capacity, if i have to pay for my ticket, i want a decent seat size or room to stand.