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North Shore Rail Discussion


checkmatechamp13
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I received a postcard in the mail informing me of a public meeting at Snug Harbor regarding the North Shore Alternatives Analysis (NSAA) project. It says that the meeting is at the Snug Harbor Cultural Center in Building P.

 

However, the postcard says that it is on Thursday, February 16th, 2011 at 7:30 pm. The problem is that February 16th is a Wednesday. I'm going to try to contact them to verify whether it is Wednesday, February 16th, or Thursday, February 17th.

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That's intresting. Can you tell them that a fellow friend told them that a good idea would be to connect the current North Shore Line to the Hudson Bergen Light Rail.

 

Why would we expect anything else from you?

 

P.S. You should be main speaker... ;)

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They're only going to announce that another 5-year study is necessary! If the MTA actually ran the (S40), (S46) and (S48) properly with more limited service that connects efficiently to the ferries, the North Shore line and all of it's "studies" wouldn't be as needed. The bus service on those lines is very minimal compared to lines in other boroughs and service should definitely be expanded first before they look to rebuild the rail line. Anyone else agree?

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You don't understand though, if they were to shorten the headways between buses and shorten the time it takes to reach the ferry, the north shore line wouldn't be necessary at all. The S40 currently runs every 20 minutes during middays but during the summers it's every 15 minutes and it's fine when it's like that. At 20 minute headways, the S40 line is absolutely terrible and makes people want the North shore line even more but if they were to simply run better service on the line and stop being cheap, then the north shore line would not be needed. Traffic isn't a problem on the S46, S48 and s40 routes, it's the terrible headways and buses not showing up.

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I agree, but in this case there are plenty of cheaper alternatives that could be had before they build the rail line. I'm assuming that you've never ridden the S90 daily? The S90 is the fastest bus on staten island and also makes the same stops as the rail line would, but it only runs during rush hours. They could easily have the S90 run at other times.

 

And how exactly would the HBLR connect to the North Shore line? I keep reading that but the North shore line is in a deep-cut when it crosses under the Bayonne Bridge so an incredibly steep ramp and a couple of 90 degree turns would be required.

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It is not going to use the entire North Shore Line right of way. It would run at street level several blocks away, and enter the bridge that way, and I do hear you about temporarily increasing bus service. It would be a good idea for a short run until the rail line is complete.

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Why would we expect anything else from you?

 

P.S. You should be main speaker... :)

 

If it is anything like the last meeting, what will happen is that they will show some maps and charts advocating for the restoration of the line and the public will be able to write down comments and speak with some of the planners there about the line.

 

They also show some options for service. Some are obvious (heavy rail, light rail, and BRT), but some really don't make sense (running a ferry service which wouldn't utilize the ROW at all)

 

The documents will be similar to these: http://www.mta.info/mta/planning/nsaa/

 

They also have an "About You" section where you put a sticker showing where you live and how you commute (bus, rail, walking, driving, ferry, etc). Of course, there is census data available, but they want to know based on the people that attended the meeting.

 

Last time, when they said "How do you commute?", I was the only one who put "local bus only"

 

That's intresting. Can you tell them that a fellow friend told them that a good idea would be to connect the current North Shore Line to the Hudson Bergen Light Rail.

 

I'll tell them that (if I'm able to make it), but personally, I think the HBLR would be better off going down Richmond Avenue, and the NSRR would be better off being the sole line on the ROW.

 

You don't understand though, if they were to shorten the headways between buses and shorten the time it takes to reach the ferry, the north shore line wouldn't be necessary at all. The S40 currently runs every 20 minutes during middays but during the summers it's every 15 minutes and it's fine when it's like that. At 20 minute headways, the S40 line is absolutely terrible and makes people want the North shore line even more but if they were to simply run better service on the line and stop being cheap, then the north shore line would not be needed. Traffic isn't a problem on the S46, S48 and s40 routes, it's the terrible headways and buses not showing up.

 

It isn't a problem on the S40, but it is a problem on the S48, and to a lesser extent the S44 and S46.

 

I agree, but in this case there are plenty of cheaper alternatives that could be had before they build the rail line. I'm assuming that you've never ridden the S90 daily? The S90 is the fastest bus on staten island and also makes the same stops as the rail line would, but it only runs during rush hours. They could easily have the S90 run at other times.

 

And how exactly would the HBLR connect to the North Shore line? I keep reading that but the North shore line is in a deep-cut when it crosses under the Bayonne Bridge so an incredibly steep ramp and a couple of 90 degree turns would be required.

 

People are more likely to ride a train than a bus. The local bus just has a stigma attached to it that a train doesn't have. If some park-and-rides were built, so people can drive and then take the train to St. George, I'm sure the line would see heavy usage.

 

Ridership estimates for the line are between 11,000-15,000 weekday riders daily. By comparison, the S40 gets about 5,000 riders, the S46 gets about 8,600 riders, and the S48 gets about 9,800 riders. No matter how much you improve the service on these lines, you're never going to get as many people out of their cars compared to running a train line.

 

But I do agree with you about the engineering problems with having the HBLR going onto the North Shore Line. That's why I suggested them as two seperate lines.

 

BTW, aren't you supposed to be supporting this? After all, your username is SIR North Shore. :(

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Why does Staten Island have such a stigma with using the local bus? I think I know why, but I want to see if anyone else does. I think more people would use it if they ran more limiteds. Last night for example I took the X10 to car service at Slosson because I didn't feel like dealing with the crowded every stop S53. Yes, it's very frequent but it just makes too many stops. Really annoying. Then there's the folks riding that makes it a turn off too at times.

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They're only going to announce that another 5-year study is necessary! If the MTA actually ran the (S40), (S46) and (S48) properly with more limited service that connects efficiently to the ferries, the North Shore line and all of it's "studies" wouldn't be as needed. The bus service on those lines is very minimal compared to lines in other boroughs and service should definitely be expanded first before they look to rebuild the rail line. Anyone else agree?

 

I still argue that Limited Stop service should be expanded going BOTH ways on the main lines going to the ferry, as well as on the S53. I would probably consider using the local bus during late nights for example if there was limited stop service on the S53.

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Why does Staten Island have such a stigma with using the local bus? I think I know why, but I want to see if anyone else does. I think more people would use it if they ran more limiteds. Last night for example I took the X10 to car service at Slosson because I didn't feel like dealing with the crowded every stop S53. Yes, it's very frequent but it just makes too many stops. Really annoying. Then there's the folks riding that makes it a turn off too at times.

 

Part of it is the fact that, to be honest, some people on SI, especially on the South Shore, think they are above riding the local bus. You'll notice that, when the SI Advance wrote an article about cutting school bus service, they interviewed parents who were driving their children to school (personally, I feel that, if your child doesn't want to walk, you deserve to be stuck in traffic)

 

Another thing is the frequency of some routes. During rush hours, it isn't that bad (most routes run every 15 minutes to meet the ferry), but off-peak, you could be talking a half-hour wait.

 

Finally, just the convenience of driving makes it more feasable than taking a local bus. For example, from my home to the West Brighton YMCA used to take 10-15 minutes by car. Taking public transportation on a perfect day (I run to Forest Avenue, get the S98 and then see the S89 waiting at Forest Avenue), it takes at least 25 minutes (counting the walking).

 

I remember one time a woman was complaining that she had to take 4 buses to get to her destination. She was going from the Hilton Garden Inn on South Avenue to some location on Hylan Blvd. She said she had to take the S46 to the S48 to the S89 to the S78/S79 (she told me this on the S89. Admittedly, she could've stayed on the S46 and gotten the S89 at Walker Street/Morning star Road, but you see my point about a car being much more convenient)

 

By the way, I've found it odd that the members of the club that live near Forest Avenue get driven, whereas the members that live further away from Forest Avenue use public transportation.

 

I still argue that Limited Stop service should be expanded going BOTH ways on the main lines going to the ferry, as well as on the S53. I would probably consider using the local bus during late nights for example if there was limited stop service on the S53.

 

It isn't necessary at night since the buses run fast anyway, but I see your point. The problem is that the routes don't have the ridership to qualify for limited-stop service off-peak.

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Trains, and Light Rails/Trolleys have a much higher frequency rate. Like what Checkmate Champ said waiting for a bus can take up to 30 minutes. Although I have had been to Staten Island I am going to use my own bus in Brooklyn as an example the B8. The B8 if you guys know runs from Bay Ridge to Brownsville. The B8 during rush hours has an average wait time of 7 minutes. During non rush hour periods it can take 28 minutes for another bus to arrive.

 

Now lets test out trains alright. I am going to use the train that I use to get to Manhattan the (D). Let's pretend that this is an average timetable for a North Shore light rail/heavy rail line. During rush hours there is an average time of 3 minutes for a train to arrive. Now that is extremely short compare to the bus that would take twice as long, and even better the train travels in it's own ROW uninterrputed by traffic unlike a bus. Even during off peak hours it takes 9 minutes for a train to arrive while it takes three time as long for a bus to arrive. This prove trains, and light rails are better then buses.

 

Once again I will prove that the recent North Shore Line proposal is a light rail line connected to the HBLR.

Staten-Island-Main-Map.jpg

 

Besides I approve of this. This is going to lead to a greener, healthier, and better Staten Island with better access to mainland, and in the future a connection to the NYC Subway.

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Part of it is the fact that, to be honest, some people on SI, especially on the South Shore, think they are above riding the local bus. You'll notice that, when the SI Advance wrote an article about cutting school bus service, they interviewed parents who were driving their children to school (personally, I feel that, if your child doesn't want to walk, you deserve to be stuck in traffic)

 

Another thing is the frequency of some routes. During rush hours, it isn't that bad (most routes run every 15 minutes to meet the ferry), but off-peak, you could be talking a half-hour wait.

 

Finally, just the convenience of driving makes it more feasable than taking a local bus. For example, from my home to the West Brighton YMCA used to take 10-15 minutes by car. Taking public transportation on a perfect day (I run to Forest Avenue, get the S98 and then see the S89 waiting at Forest Avenue), it takes at least 25 minutes (counting the walking).

 

I remember one time a woman was complaining that she had to take 4 buses to get to her destination. She was going from the Hilton Garden Inn on South Avenue to some location on Hylan Blvd. She said she had to take the S46 to the S48 to the S89 to the S78/S79 (she told me this on the S89. Admittedly, she could've stayed on the S46 and gotten the S89 at Walker Street/Morning star Road, but you see my point about a car being much more convenient)

 

By the way, I've found it odd that the members of the club that live near Forest Avenue get driven, whereas the members that live further away from Forest Avenue use public transportation.

 

 

 

It isn't necessary at night since the buses run fast anyway, but I see your point. The problem is that the routes don't have the ridership to qualify for limited-stop service off-peak.

 

 

It's not just folks on the South Shore. It's Staten Island in general both North & South and I understand where they're coming from. The local buses on Staten Island can simply have too much riff raff on them and what is more interesting is that the riff raff is usually from those who don't pay, hence another reason why I advocate for stricter fare enforcement. The parents on the South Shore fought vehemently because some of the kids were getting their @sses kicked on the local bus. Kids half of their size taking advantage...

 

We're both from Brooklyn so I think we're both a bit more willing to use the local bus just from being used to using them back in Brooklyn (although me personally I have my limitations on Staten Island). Some of these kids have just been pampered beyond belief on SI. Sheltered way too much. If it were my kid that got his @ss kicked I'd, have him point out the kid and I'd have a "talk" with him or if the situation warranted it I'd have them duke it out right there. You've got to install some sort of toughness in kids. Granted you have to know when and where to fight, but sometimes you have to stand up for yourself.

 

 

Me personally it's more of a class thing. I'm just getting too old to deal with the riff raff and BS. My work day is long and I just want to get home quickly and have a nice quiet ride, but no one dares f*ck with me on the local bus. I just give the look and they now to back off.

 

As far as the S53 not needing it please. People constantly ringing the damn bell and what's worse is they ring for stops that they don't even want which drives me nuts. :mad:

 

I understand the whole ridership thing, but you're never going to get folks out of their cars if you don't implement quicker ways to get around on Staten Island AND have service that's reliable. Get those things done and eliminate some of the riff raff off of the local bus and you'd see more ridership.

 

Me personally my plan is to move further south so I can just walk to an express bus so I don't have to deal with the local buses at all or car service because car service can be a pain in the @ss too. Actually, what I'd like to see is more competition for car service on Staten Island too AND the ability for us to use our credit cards. Currently I can only use a credit card if I pay $25.00.

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Trains, and Light Rails/Trolleys have a much higher frequency rate. Like what Checkmate Champ said waiting for a bus can take up to 30 minutes. Although I have had been to Staten Island I am going to use my own bus in Brooklyn as an example the B8. The B8 if you guys know runs from Bay Ridge to Brownsville. The B8 during rush hours has an average wait time of 7 minutes. During non rush hour periods it can take 28 minutes for another bus to arrive.

 

Now lets test out trains alright. I am going to use the train that I use to get to Manhattan the (D). Let's pretend that this is an average timetable for a North Shore light rail/heavy rail line. During rush hours there is an average time of 3 minutes for a train to arrive. Now that is extremely short compare to the bus that would take twice as long, and even better the train travels in it's own ROW uninterrputed by traffic unlike a bus. Even during off peak hours it takes 9 minutes for a train to arrive while it takes three time as long for a bus to arrive. This prove trains, and light rails are better then buses.

 

Once again I will prove that the recent North Shore Line proposal is a light rail line connected to the HBLR.

Staten-Island-Main-Map.jpg

 

Besides I approve of this. This is going to lead to a greener, healthier, and better Staten Island with better access to mainland, and in the future a connection to the NYC Subway.

 

Trains don't necessarily have to come more frequently than buses. The SIR runs just as frequently as the S74 and S78 (even more frequently when you take into consideration the sections where they share the route with the S76 and S79 respectively).

 

The reason why I think rail is better is because it has higher capacity and can move much faster (you don't have to worry about the train getting stuck in traffic). Frequencies are based on demand for the route, so trains will run more frequently than buses only if they are more crowded than buses.

 

It's not just folks on the South Shore. It's Staten Island in general both North & South and I understand where they're coming from. The local buses on Staten Island can simply have too much riff raff on them and what is more interesting is that the riff raff is usually from those who don't pay, hence another reason why I advocate for stricter fare enforcement. The parents on the South Shore fought vehemently because some of the kids were getting their @sses kicked on the local bus. Kids half of their size taking advantage...

 

We're both from Brooklyn so I think we're both a bit more willing to use the local bus just from being used to using them back in Brooklyn (although me personally I have my limitations on Staten Island). Some of these kids have just been pampered beyond belief on SI. Sheltered way too much. If it were my kid that got his @ss kicked I'd, have him point out the kid and I'd have a "talk" with him or if the situation warranted it I'd have them duke it out right there. You've got to install some sort of toughness in kids. Granted you have to know when and where to fight, but sometimes you have to stand up for yourself.

 

 

Me personally it's more of a class thing. I'm just getting too old to deal with the riff raff and BS. My work day is long and I just want to get home quickly and have a nice quiet ride, but no one dares f*ck with me on the local bus. I just give the look and they now to back off.

 

As far as the S53 not needing it please. People constantly ringing the damn bell and what's worse is they ring for stops that they don't even want which drives me nuts. :mad:

 

I understand the whole ridership thing, but you're never going to get folks out of their cars if you don't implement quicker ways to get around on Staten Island AND have service that's reliable. Get those things done and eliminate some of the riff raff off of the local bus and you'd see more ridership.

 

Me personally my plan is to move further south so I can just walk to an express bus so I don't have to deal with the local buses at all or car service because car service can be a pain in the @ss too. Actually, what I'd like to see is more competition for car service on Staten Island too AND the ability for us to use our credit cards. Currently I can only use a credit card if I pay $25.00.

 

I think that attitude is more prevalent on the South Shore than the North Shore. On the North Shore, you'll have some people with that attitude, but for the most part, they don't look down on local bus riders.

 

Personally, I don't think there is as much riff-raff as people say there is. And like I said, I've taken routes across the whole North Shore. And on the farebeaters comment, I do see where you are coming from, but I do think that there should be a certain amount of leniency when confronting a farebeater. Student MetroCards are only good for 3 rides per day, and on some days some of my friends don't have enough rides on them because they have too many after-school activities. Should they be punished for taking on additional after-school activities that will make them a more productive member of society, especially when they are not causing any trouble?

 

By the way, even though I'm from Brooklyn, I really didn't use the local bus system. It wasn't like my family was scared of it-it just didn't suit our needs. For trips under about 1.5 miles (to places like Coney Island and Manhattan Beach), we would just walk. For trips longer than that, we would usually just use the subway. Still, we don't have a fear of public transportation.

 

I'm not saying the S53 doesn't need it. I'm just saying it is only warranted at certain times of the day. The buses don't make that many stops after 10PM anyway.

 

Like I said, some people just have it embedded in them that they are too good for the local bus, so just making the buses more reliable isn't going to get you much in the way of ridership increases.

Edited by checkmatechamp13
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Exactly if we say things like this it would make a stranger which is looking at this thread think of Staten Island as a poor, crime filled Ghetto area. There are much more worse places in NYC then Staten Island. I can name one right now Canarise, Brooklyn.

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Exactly if we say things like this it would make a stranger which is looking at this thread think of Staten Island as a poor, crime filled Ghetto area. There are much more worse places in NYC then Staten Island. I can name one right now Canarise, Brooklyn.

 

There are plenty of places worse than Canarsie. Some parts are actually pretty nice, especially the western sections.

 

But still, there are many parts of NYC that are much poorer and crime-ridden than any part of Staten Island.

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Exactly if we say things like this it would make a stranger which is looking at this thread think of Staten Island as a poor, crime filled Ghetto area. There are much more worse places in NYC then Staten Island. I can name one right now Canarise, Brooklyn.

 

 

Not at all... It's just that Staten Island is a bit more snobbier in some respects.

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Trains don't necessarily have to come more frequently than buses. The SIR runs just as frequently as the S74 and S78 (even more frequently when you take into consideration the sections where they share the route with the S76 and S79 respectively).

 

The reason why I think rail is better is because it has higher capacity and can move much faster (you don't have to worry about the train getting stuck in traffic). Frequencies are based on demand for the route, so trains will run more frequently than buses only if they are more crowded than buses.

 

 

 

I think that attitude is more prevalent on the South Shore than the North Shore. On the North Shore, you'll have some people with that attitude, but for the most part, they don't look down on local bus riders.

 

Personally, I don't think there is as much riff-raff as people say there is. And like I said, I've taken routes across the whole North Shore. And on the farebeaters comment, I do see where you are coming from, but I do think that there should be a certain amount of leniency when confronting a farebeater. Student MetroCards are only good for 3 rides per day, and on some days some of my friends don't have enough rides on them because they have too many after-school activities. Should they be punished for taking on additional after-school activities that will make them a more productive member of society, especially when they are not causing any trouble?

 

By the way, even though I'm from Brooklyn, I really didn't use the local bus system. It wasn't like my family was scared of it-it just didn't suit our needs. For trips under about 1.5 miles (to places like Coney Island and Manhattan Beach), we would just walk. For trips longer than that, we would usually just use the subway. Still, we don't have a fear of public transportation.

 

I'm not saying the S53 doesn't need it. I'm just saying it is only warranted at certain times of the day. The buses don't make that many stops after 10PM anyway.

 

Like I said, some people just have it embedded in them that they are too good for the local bus, so just making the buses more reliable isn't going to get you much in the way of ridership increases.

 

You and I know that you're in the minority in terms of students doing extracurricular activities that get on and have used their three rides for the day that aren't creating any riff raff.

 

When I was High School I had a half fare pass. If you want to know my opinion I think parents should be responsible for the transportation of their kids to and from school and then perhaps many of the students that have the passes and skip class would perhaps value them more.

 

I come from a middle class family and my mother firmly believed in me getting my education so I always had my money to get around with my half fare pass.

 

 

OR what could do is take away the student passes for students who are constantly skipping or cutting class.

 

And on the S53, they could run Limited Stop service until 23:00. It would certainly be used because even at 22:00 it can be crowded and can make a lot of stops.

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This is what I think the purpose of a Student MetroCard is: To provide students with the opportunity to receive a better education. That can either be through traveling to a better school further away or through extracurricular activities.

 

That being the case, I disagree with the idea that any fare should be charged using a Student MetroCard (after all, yellow school buses both in NYC and in other countries don't charge a fare, and they cost more to operate than just giving out bus passes). However, I do agree with you that they should be taken away if you aren't using it for its intended purpose. If you don't come to school to learn, your MetroCard should be taken away.

 

But regarding the S53, I really don't think limited-stop service needs to run that late. I've seen buses around 9PM at Forest Avenue/Broadway and they didn't seem like they had too many people.

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This is what I think the purpose of a Student MetroCard is: To provide students with the opportunity to receive a better education. That can either be through traveling to a better school further away or through extracurricular activities.

 

That being the case, I disagree with the idea that any fare should be charged using a Student MetroCard (after all, yellow school buses both in NYC and in other countries don't charge a fare, and they cost more to operate than just giving out bus passes). However, I do agree with you that they should be taken away if you aren't using it for its intended purpose. If you don't come to school to learn, your MetroCard should be taken away.

 

But regarding the S53, I really don't think limited-stop service needs to run that late. I've seen buses around 9PM at Forest Avenue/Broadway and they didn't seem like they had too many people.

 

They empty out a bit by the time they've reached Forest & Broadway, with that stop being a big stop, but when they reach Hylan Blvd they are usually SRO even at 22:00 coming from Bay Ridge, which is why the frequencies are so good even at that time.

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Since the S53 does get decent (not great, but decent) ridership in the Port Richmond area, I think it would make sense for the local and limited to run the full route.

 

What do you think of these stops?:

 

Port Richmond Avenue/Richmond Terrace

Port Richmond Avenue/Castleton Avenue

Castleton Avenue/Jewett Avenue

Castleton Avenue/Clove Road

Castleton Avenue/Broadway

Broadway/Cary Avenue

Broadway/Forest Avenue

Clove Road/Bard Avenue

Clove Road/Victory Blvd

Clove Road/Howard Avenue

Clove Road/Giles Place (Grasmere SIR station)

Clove Road/Hylan Blvd

Lily Pond Avenue/McClean Avenue

 

then all S93 stops in Brooklyn

 

These stops look decently spaced out (roughly 1/2 mile apart), so anybody who wants a faster ride only has to walk 5 minutes to a limited stop. As a compromise to local passengers, whenever the headway is 12 minutes, there is a 1:1 ratio of limiteds to locals. When the headway is 15 minutes, the ratio of limiteds to locals is 1:2. Whenever the headway is greater than 15 minutes, the limited doesn't run.

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Since the S53 does get decent (not great, but decent) ridership in the Port Richmond area, I think it would make sense for the local and limited to run the full route.

 

What do you think of these stops?:

 

Port Richmond Avenue/Richmond Terrace

Port Richmond Avenue/Castleton Avenue

Castleton Avenue/Jewett Avenue

Castleton Avenue/Clove Road

Castleton Avenue/Broadway

Broadway/Cary Avenue

Broadway/Forest Avenue

Clove Road/Bard Avenue

Clove Road/Victory Blvd

Clove Road/Howard Avenue

Clove Road/Giles Place (Grasmere SIR station)

Clove Road/Hylan Blvd

Lily Pond Avenue/McClean Avenue

 

then all S93 stops in Brooklyn

 

These stops look decently spaced out (roughly 1/2 mile apart), so anybody who wants a faster ride only has to walk 5 minutes to a limited stop. As a compromise to local passengers, whenever the headway is 12 minutes, there is a 1:1 ratio of limiteds to locals. When the headway is 15 minutes, the ratio of limiteds to locals is 1:2. Whenever the headway is greater than 15 minutes, the limited doesn't run.

 

Make one more stop at Targee for the S74/S76. Those wanting Richmond Rd could walk back.

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