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3 minutes ago, Jemorie said:

3 or 4 trains an hour to Middle Village in the AM while the rest of the trains drop out at 2nd Avenue?! Don't make me laugh. Do you know that your "3 or 4 trains an hour" proposal is mathematically a train every 15-20 minutes tops? This is not the (A)'s Lefferts Blvd and Rockaway sub-branches. And the WillyB can handle 24 tph.

I highly doubt everyone from the Brooklyn portions of the (F) and (M) are riding them all the way to points north along the Queens Blvd Line. The Queens Blvd Line and the 53rd Street in the reverse peak direction (once the (F) and (M) come off 6th Ave in the morning) sure as hell are not "crowded" at all whatsoever and yes I've ridden them on occasions.

Read more carefully. He’s saying that if it weren’t for WillyB issues, you could run those 3-4tph all the way out. 

And once again, the issue isn’t that there’s much through riding. It’s that, between transfers from the (J)(6)(A)(C)(E)(L)(N)(Q)(R)(W)(7) and the riders endemic to the 6th Ave corridors, 6th Ave trains get slammed in the Manhattan CBD. This proposal would be one way to mitigate that issue. 

2 minutes ago, Jemorie said:

That's a pretty dumb idea tbh. The Queens Blvd Line cannot handle any more extra (M) trains combined with the (R) on the local track.

I share this concern. Depending on when *exactly* you want to add these additional trains, you may run up against terminal capacity issues at Forest Hills. 

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9 minutes ago, RR503 said:

Read more carefully. He’s saying that if it weren’t for WillyB issues, you could run those 3-4tph all the way out. 

And once again, the issue isn’t that there’s much through riding. It’s that, between transfers from the (J)(6)(A)(C)(E)(L)(N)(Q)(R)(W)(7) and the riders endemic to the 6th Ave corridors, 6th Ave trains get slammed in the Manhattan CBD. This proposal would be one way to mitigate that issue.

Thank you! Someone actually read what I said... 🙄

10 minutes ago, RR503 said:

I share this concern. Depending on when *exactly* you want to add these additional trains, you may run up against terminal capacity issues at Forest Hills. 

Yeah, I would only add the short turns if there's enough capacity for them.

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16 minutes ago, Around the Horn said:

Thank you! Someone actually read what I said... 🙄

Yeah, I would only add the short turns if there's enough capacity for them.

Oh please dude. I noticed you always praise posters like him to high heaven whenever he makes a post with your typical "tHaNkS sO mUcH mY mAnZ!!!!!" lmao. He's a great poster, I give him that. But he's not a god lol. Same goes for anyone else who has a connection with the (MTA).

And I did read what you said and I still disagree. I highly doubt that every single northbound (F) and (M) in the AM Rush from Brooklyn are 100% full to the point where people at Broadway-Lafayette, West 4th, 14th, 23rd, 34th, 42nd, Rockefeller Center have to let a train or two go before they can finally squeeze their asses onto them, It just doesn't sound "right" to me. People from Brooklyn on those two lines are getting off at all of those stops I mention in the AM Rush, not just getting on from other lines. There's no need for an (M) to 2nd Avenue in the AM just so you can get a seat lol. Even the MTA's official loading guidelines actually call for more standees than sitting passengers down anyway. But that's only during rush hours. And the (F) and (M) get lighter loads after 6th Avenue northbound in the AM anyway. Just because they're crowded before 6th Avenue, doesn't mean people waiting at 6th Avenue stations can't get on. At the stops I mention, people get on and off at the same time.

Edited by Jemorie
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Great timing, MTA...

Quote

EXPRESS TEST TRAINS
Sep 9, Monday at 9:50 AM and 10:25 AM from Jay St-MetroTech
<F> Two Coney Island-bound trains will run express from Jay St-MetroTech to Church Av in Brooklyn making one stop at 7 Av 

For Bergen St, Carroll St, Smith-9 Sts, 4 Av-9 St, 15 St-Prospect Park and Fort Hamilton Pkwy, take a Coney Island-bound (F) local train.

 

 

EXPRESS TEST TRAINS
Sep 9, Monday at 4 PM and 4:35 PM from Church Av
<F> Two Jamaica-bound trains will run express from Church Av to Jay St-MetroTech in Brooklyn making one stop at 7 Av 

For Fort Hamilton Pkwy, 15 St-Prospect Park, 4 Av-9 St, Smith-9 Sts, Carroll and Bergen Sts. take a Jamaica-bound (F) local train.

🤦‍♀️

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4 hours ago, Around the Horn said:

I take you don't use 6th Avenue in the morning...

(F) and (M) trains are often crush loaded and frequently passengers transferring from other lines in Manhattan trying to get an (F) or (M) to Midtown (either up from West 4th and Broadway-Lafayette or down from Lex, Bryant Park and Herald Sq) have to let one or more trains go before they can get on. An additional "empty" (M) train either from or to 2nd Av would help spread out the crowds and provide more capacity on Queens Blvd, 53rd Street and 6th Avenue which are all very crowded corridors in the peak.

Even if trains "become lightly loaded after they scoot along through the CBDs in the peak direction", the whole point is providing additional service in the core, and if the Willamsburg Bridge and Myrtle Avenue merge weren't major limits on train throughput, you could just run the 3 or 4 trains per hour all the way out to Middle Village anyway.

I have to agree. Back when I was going to AMAC (by train, not those damn school buses), I would sometimes either use the passageway between 6th and 7th Avenues or B Division trains, and trains over there would tend to have nasty loads. (This was around 2011-2016, by the way.)

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8 hours ago, Jemorie said:

Oh please dude. I noticed you always praise posters like him to high heaven whenever he makes a post with your typical "tHaNkS sO mUcH mY mAnZ!!!!!" lmao. He's a great poster, I give him that. But he's not a god lol. Same goes for anyone else who has a connection with the (MTA).

I hardly think saying someone would pass a basic reading comp test is elevating them in some big way... 

8 hours ago, Jemorie said:

And I did read what you said and I still disagree. I highly doubt that every single northbound (F) and (M) in the AM Rush from Brooklyn are 100% full to the point where people at Broadway-Lafayette, West 4th, 14th, 23rd, 34th, 42nd, Rockefeller Center have to let a train or two go before they can finally squeeze their asses onto them, It just doesn't sound "right" to me. People from Brooklyn on those two lines are getting off at all of those stops I mention in the AM Rush, not just getting on from other lines. There's no need for an (M) to 2nd Avenue in the AM just so you can get a seat lol. Even the MTA's official loading guidelines actually call for more standees than sitting passengers down anyway. But that's only during rush hours. And the (F) and (M) get lighter loads after 6th Avenue northbound in the AM anyway. Just because they're crowded before 6th Avenue, doesn't mean people waiting at 6th Avenue stations can't get on. At the stops I mention, people get on and off at the same time.

The phrases I bolded suggest that you're not a regular rider of 6th local trains. Speaking as one, let me tell you that the conditions that "don't sound right" do in fact exist. Yes, of course there's flow on and off trains, but the net effect of those transfers is more crowding -- especially at 14 St from the (L). And while Queens certainly is busy, I wouldn't be so fast to dismiss Brooklyn loads. Unlike in the southbound peak, both (F)s and (M)s arrive on the corridor quite slammed. I wouldn't be surprised if the total ridership surpassed southbound service. 

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10 hours ago, Jemorie said:

Oh please dude. I noticed you always praise posters like him to high heaven whenever he makes a post with your typical "tHaNkS sO mUcH mY mAnZ!!!!!" lmao. He's a great poster, I give him that. But he's not a god lol. Same goes for anyone else who has a connection with the (MTA).

I don't praise anyone just idea that I agree with and he happens to have a few but go off sis just cause I disagree with your point :lol: 

Jeez it's like I went back to middle school with this nonsense...

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On 9/6/2019 at 9:39 AM, Lawrence St said:

@Union Tpke Regarding your (M) point, I don't see why (MTA) cant add a few short turn (M) 's to 2nd Av and use (F) sets during rush hour. Is the capacity not there?

 

On 9/6/2019 at 12:00 PM, Lawrence St said:

Simple, send it to Essex St (F) or Church Av (F) in order to maintain the connection to Nassau. 

Anything happens along the line, reroute the 10 car from 2nd Av.

@Lawrence St, I'm not even gonna front but you do honestly make a lot of dumb ideas and nine times out of ten they have so many flaws or you just flat out lie/pretend alot, either to seek attention or whatever. it's not like this is your first time being on the forums anyway, which is why I often don't go easy on you with my responses. But I'll try my best to ignore you from now on unless I agree with you on something lol.

However, you know full well that the (G) fumigation at Church Avenue always causes severe delays to the (F), particularly going southbound (unless the entire (F) line in both directions is  running at 10 minute headways aka 6 trains an hour like the (G) and being spaced evenly apart so it is not 2 minutes behind the (G)), hence the Culver Express stuff always comes up. Add those short turn 10-car (M) 's to the mix and the issue gets even more messed up. Plus, not everyone will be familiar with those limited (M) runs under your proposal in your second post below your first one.

That said, I'll finally leave you be for good.

1 hour ago, RR503 said:

The phrases I bolded suggest that you're not a regular rider of 6th local trains. Speaking as one, let me tell you that the conditions that "don't sound right" do in fact exist. Yes, of course there's flow on and off trains, but the net effect of those transfers is more crowding -- especially at 14 St from the (L). And while Queens certainly is busy, I wouldn't be so fast to dismiss Brooklyn loads. Unlike in the southbound peak, both (F)s and (M)s arrive on the corridor quite slammed. I wouldn't be surprised if the total ridership surpassed southbound service. 

Yeah...and so what if I'm not? Not everyone has all the free time in the world to ride every single line in the system during peak, reverse peak, off-peak, overnight hours etc. Just to let you know that I live 5 blocks away from the (3)(4) to the south and the (A)(C) to the north on Utica Avenue, and I alternate between riding all four lines. For example, I didn't grew up or in general don't live in Bay Ridge like @Around the Horn does and yet I still acknowledge that, in the AM peak, the (N) gets slammed before 59th and the (D) gets slammed before 36th, with both lines remaining that way all the way into Midtown. And yeah, I believe the (R) probably does get crowded as well throughout 4th Avenue and Lower Manhattan northbound in the morning too.

But since we're on topic of local service along 6th Ave during the peak hours in either direction...as we all know, Queens lack subway service big time. Hence the ridership levels at the Queens ends of both the (E) and (F), especially in the AM peak. While you may not be surprised that northbound AM peak service through 6th Ave Local surpasses the southbound direction, I sure as hell would. If I can remember off the top of my head, NYCT loading guidelines call for 145 people per car on B Division 60 foot equipment during the rush. If the (M) in particular exceeds that guideline out of Brooklyn in the morning, then those extra trains should be going to the Metropolitan Avenue end for more service along the Myrtle Avenue and Broadway-Brooklyn corridors, not Queens Blvd, because of lack of capacity. This way, there's some breathing space for people waiting at Broadway-Lafayette, W 4th, 14th, 23rd, 34th, 42nd, and Rockefeller Center. Same with the (F) out of Brooklyn, but it already maintains 15 tph tops. The merge with the (E) in Queens, which also runs 15 tph in the reverse peak along Queens Blvd, as well. But neither line can't be increased since it is physically impossible (and will forever be anyway) to run a train more than 2 minutes apart (30 tph on the combined (F) and (E)).

Why short turn those (M) trains at 2nd Avenue when they can provide better use for the Brooklyn load so that way 6th Avenue local customers aren't left behind on platforms like you and @Around the Horn claim? Yeah, obviously the transfers from other lines do play a role in crowding on 6th Avenue local trains to the point that people have to let a train or two go by, but more people on say, uptown (B) and (D) trains from Brooklyn in the AM peak, are getting off at Broadway-Lafayette, W 4th, 34th, 42nd, Rockefeller Center, 7th Ave-53rd, and Columbus Circle, than actually transferring to other lines like the (F) and (M).

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31 minutes ago, Around the Horn said:

I don't praise anyone just idea that I agree with and he happens to have a few but go off sis just cause I disagree with your point :lol: 

Jeez it's like I went back to middle school with this nonsense...

Sis...? Dude, I'm a he. Lol with that stereotype like you personally know my gender from behind the scenes. But I'll let that slide.

Edited by Jemorie
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I'm not going to even bother responding.

2 hours ago, RR503 said:

I hardly think saying someone would pass a basic reading comp test is elevating them in some big way... 

The phrases I bolded suggest that you're not a regular rider of 6th local trains. Speaking as one, let me tell you that the conditions that "don't sound right" do in fact exist. Yes, of course there's flow on and off trains, but the net effect of those transfers is more crowding -- especially at 14 St from the (L). And while Queens certainly is busy, I wouldn't be so fast to dismiss Brooklyn loads. Unlike in the southbound peak, both (F)s and (M)s arrive on the corridor quite slammed. I wouldn't be surprised if the total ridership surpassed southbound service. 

The (L) is the main source of riders transferring between 14th St and 6th Av, and having ridden the subway during rush hour, the crowds are INSANE.

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11 hours ago, Jemorie said:

<snip>

My point is that unless you have data, you should defer to those who actually ride those lines. I'm not at all trying to diminish crowding from Queens here, I'm merely pointing out that, in the AM rush, (F)s arrive from Queens super crowded and (M)s not, whereas from Brooklyn both are well loaded. Does the math work out to favor the aggregate of Brooklyn ridership? I dunno, but that's somewhat orthogonal to the point, which is that the (F) and (M) get slammed going north on 6th. 

As for the question of Brooklyn vs Metro, the issue is WillyB capacity. You can do +3 on the bridge, but the additional +2 available on 6th beyond the +3 would have to turn at 2nd Ave. There's also, of course, an operating cost argument here, but it isn't like we've done anything to control those in the first place...

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1 hour ago, Jova42R said:

Why does the (G) terminate at Church Av instead of continuing onto either 18 Av or Coney Island?

For Coney Island, capacity constraints. The diamond crossover is closer to West 8th than it is to Coney Island. Alternate (F) trains originate and terminate at Kings Highway throughout the entire rush hour timeframe for this very reason. The (F) also runs more frequently and has more trainsets than the (G) does across the day and evening on Monday through Friday. Another reason is probably ridership. Do all the outdoor (F) train-only stations below Church warrant Brooklyn-Queens Crosstown service? The answer is probably no, not at this time.

For 18th Avenue, probably lack of crew room. I'm not sure. But 18th Avenue would sure as hell be a better southern terminal for the (G) than Church Avenue, since fumigation delays the (F). The (G) turning at 18th Avenue means no relays; in addition, if the diamond crossover (between the Coney Island-bound local track and the center express track) is closer to Ditmas Avenue just at the south end of the station, the (G) can immediately switch over and originate/terminate at 18th Avenue on the center express track all without bothering (F) service to Coney Island from behind. (G) trains would come into the station, discharge its passengers completely on the Coney Island-bound platform, closes its doors, and reopens on the northbound platform. Another diamond crossover would be located just to the north end of 18th Avenue to allow returning Queens-bound (G) trains to cross onto the northbound local track.

If I have to wager a guess, the tower at Jay Street-MetroTech controls the (G) fumigation and relays at Church Avenue, or Church Avenue itself has a tower of its own.

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I've always wondered why the (MTA) couldn't extend the (C) to Lefferts Blvd or The Rockaways while having the (A) go to/from another Queens terminal so passengers heading to Queens won't be as confused when boarding the (A). Is it because passengers between Euclid Ave and Queens could have quick access to/from Manhattan?

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20 minutes ago, CyclonicTrainLookout said:

I've always wondered why the (MTA) couldn't extend the (C) to Lefferts Blvd or The Rockaways while having the (A) go to/from another Queens terminal so passengers heading to Queens won't be as confused when boarding the (A). Is it because passengers between Euclid Ave and Queens could have quick access to/from Manhattan?

This is because the (A) and (C) would have to have yet another merge to deal with. That is the one reason why the (C) wasn’t extended to Lefferts. Another reason would be for the lack of cars available but with the R211s coming in, this could possibly be alleviated.

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42 minutes ago, CyclonicTrainLookout said:

I've always wondered why the (MTA) couldn't extend the (C) to Lefferts Blvd or The Rockaways while having the (A) go to/from another Queens terminal so passengers heading to Queens won't be as confused when boarding the (A). Is it because passengers between Euclid Ave and Queens could have quick access to/from Manhattan?

Simple. Lefferts riders don't wanna ride an local train to Manhattan.

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16 minutes ago, biGC323232 said:

I wish the Livonia ave line had it that simple....I got 7 stations before a transfer to express service...What makes them so special....:lol:

They don't even have the excuse of the (A) serving different areas (at this point, the (C) is just a local (A) that short-turns on both ends).

This just plays into the psychological aspect of favoring express service, which is far more appropriate for trains serving the Rockaways (much greater distance to cover).

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1 hour ago, biGC323232 said:

I wish the Livonia ave line had it that simple....I got 7 stations before a transfer to express service...What makes them so special....:lol:

If you really wanted to you could add the center track on the Livonia El. It would be a waste, and would only benefit New Lots Avenue, but could be useful for train storage and for service changes.

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6 minutes ago, Union Tpke said:

If you really wanted to you could add the center track on the Livonia El. It would be a waste, and would only benefit New Lots Avenue, but could be useful for train storage and for service changes.

How would you add the center track....There's no center track along that line..Unless u mean build one...

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