SUBWAY - Random Thoughts Topic

[RR503]

@Union Tpke the new  BedNos to Court Square runs leave BedNos at 8:15, 8:40, 9:09 and 9:32. 

[bobtehpanda]

2 hours ago, P3F said:

Except for the fact that completely demolishing two stations and building a new one from scratch is in a completely different league from adding 60 feet to a platform, in terms of scope and cost. And is it even necessary to consolidate these stations? Absolutely not. Any time saved by trains would be minimal, and cost savings from less required maintenance are laughable as well. It's simply a ridiculous proposal.

Regarding the transfer, build a passageway from Hewes & Broadway to Montrose & Union. That will connect the eastern end of Hewes Street to the center of Broadway , and the distance covered is fairly manageable.

It isn't all that ridiculous. How many stations did we close during the last round of lengthening? Each station is added maintenance and staffing costs. We're going to take how many years to renovate all the stations, and for how much?

That being said, it's a ten minute walk from the end of the Lorimer St platform to the end of the Marcy Av platform; you could close Hewes and build the passageway from Lorimer, which is roughly the same distance as Hewes.

[N6 Limited]

2 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

It isn't all that ridiculous. How many stations did we close during the last round of lengthening? Each station is added maintenance and staffing costs. We're going to take how many years to renovate all the stations, and for how much?

That being said, it's a ten minute walk from the end of the Lorimer St platform to the end of the Marcy Av platform; you could close Hewes and build the passageway from Lorimer, which is roughly the same distance as Hewes.

They should build a Union Ave Station and close both, Hewes and Lorimer St Stations.

[P3F]

3 minutes ago, N6 Limited said:

They should build a Union Ave Station and close both, Hewes and Lorimer St Stations.

Right, spend a ton of money on something that will save neither money nor time in the long run.

[N6 Limited]

26 minutes ago, P3F said:

Right, spend a ton of money on something that will save neither money nor time in the long run.

Direct Transfer to the  , one less station to maintain

[officiallyliam]

30 minutes ago, P3F said:

Right, spend a ton of money on something that will save neither money nor time in the long run. 

Is Hewes Street your favorite station or something?

Look, this certainly isn't the most pressing thing that NYC Transit could do right now, but that doesn't mean it isn't a good idea. The should have a connection to the , and while building a connection to one of the existing stations wouldn't be the worst transfer in the subway system, it still wouldn't be a particularly popular or easy transfer. From the north end of Broadway to the east end of Hewes Street is 500' in distance, plus a not-insignificant level change from underground to elevated; connecting to Lorimer is about 600' with the same level change. Neither connection would be particularly easy to build, considering that as well as new tunnels of a decent width, you'd need to build elevators just to comply with the law, and you'd probably want to build a moving walkway to make the transfer halfway-attractive to people.

Building a new station would be more expensive, sure, but you need to look at this from a cost-benefit perspective. Building platforms on an elevated line where there is space on either side shouldn't really cost all that much; plus, the transfer to the is now much simpler: one new set of stairs and one elevator shaft. Riders who ordinarily might take the one stop further for the - a transfer which can neither take many more people nor be expanded easily - will now be more likely to take up usable space on or trains. So while it will cost more (though I'd guess not that much more), the benefits will certainly be greater in that more people will actually use a transfer where all they need to is walk downstairs than one that involves a block of walking before you even reach those stairs. And you really wouldn't be losing much in terms of station coverage along Broadway, either. An extension of the Marcy platforms could easily include a new entrance at Rodney Street, a block and a half away from the west end at Hewes, a 600' platform at Union would reach about a block away from the eastern and western ends of Hewes and Lorimer, respectively.

Finally, time savings: no, the time saved by individual riders when trains stop only at Union versus at Hewes and Lorimer won't be massive, probably only a minute or two at best. However, train stops do eat up time: to decelerate and then re-accelerate a subway train is by no means instantaneous, and that's before the train's dwell time at the station is factored in. Replacing two relatively-lightly-used stations with one centrally located one that provides more transportation value is just another way to squeeze the capacity out of tracks that are only going to be called upon to do more as the area around them continues to grow.

[P3F]

50 minutes ago, officiallyliam said:

Look, this certainly isn't the most pressing thing that NYC Transit could do right now, but that doesn't mean it isn't a good idea. The should have a connection to the ,

That's the point. The  isn't in a position where it can spend massive amounts of money on projects with minimal benefits, when there are plenty of more important improvements to make. 500 feet for a transfer passageway isn't short, but it is by far the least expensive (and quickest) way to allow  riders access to the  and , and it will be of similar length to various other transfers that already exist.

[officiallyliam]

3 minutes ago, P3F said:

That's the point. The  isn't in a position where it can spend massive amounts of money on projects with minimal benefits, when there are plenty of more important improvements to make. 500 feet for a transfer passageway isn't short, but it is by far the least expensive (and quickest) way to allow  riders access to the  and , and it will be of similar length to various other transfers that already exist.

Again, though, the argument I'm making isn't as simple as just cost versus cost, this is something where both cost and benefit need to be analyzed. No, a 500' transfer wouldn't be the end of the world, but that doesn't necessarily make it the right thing to do when there are other options that can be pursued. And I genuinely don't think that the cost for a passageway would be so much cheaper compared to the cost of new platforms. Building two new platforms on an elevated line really isn't a feat of engineering, and when you examine the benefit that a new station provides (far easier and likely more popular transfer, thus probable decongestion at Lorimer/Metro) the higher cost is certainly justified.

I'm not proposing we build Fulton Center in Williamsburg - this is hardly a "massive" project.

[Around the Horn]

The difference here is that you can build the transfer to Hewes without using eminent domain, while you would have to use eminent domain on that gas station for a new station at Union...

[bobtehpanda]

I don't even think you need to build a station at Union. Just shutter Hewes and build the connection at Lorimer; the exits at Lorimer and Marcy are a ten minute walk, 600 feet to Union is really not that far, and Hewes has no connections to major bus services or anything that would make it incredibly painful.

[CenSin]

38 minutes ago, Around the Horn said:

you would have to use eminent domain on that gas station for a new station at Union...

Even insignificant ants have the power to stop a useful project.

[R68OnBroadway]

58 minutes ago, Around the Horn said:

The difference here is that you can build the transfer to Hewes without using eminent domain, while you would have to use eminent domain on that gas station for a new station at Union...

Sometimes you have to use eminent domain... if we continued to not build certain things because every Tom and Harry didn't want to lose something, we would get nowhere. 

 

30 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

I don't even think you need to build a station at Union. Just shutter Hewes and build the connection at Lorimer; the exits at Lorimer and Marcy are a ten minute walk, 600 feet to Union is really not that far, and Hewes has no connections to major bus services or anything that would make it incredibly painful.

You could do that, but closing a station with no replacement will annoy people even if it was barely used, like Aqueduct Racetrack. 

 

What we should do is build the station and use eminent domain to remove the gas station and flower shop. Once they are both removed, construction can begin. Only about half of the gas station property would be needed for the station, so during construction we can build up the other half of the lot and put the flower shop there, leaving only the gas station without property. We could then relocate the gas station to Throop/Broadway/Lorimer in that empty parking lot. By combining these two stations, we have now a much busier station that has a connection to another line and also serves a major street, boosting business there.  Also remember Hewes is 371 and Lorimer is 295 in ridership, so it's not like this stop is going to be packed. 

[P3F]

I guess we'll have to leave this as a disagreement, then. This "station consolidation" is about as likely to happen as Wallyhorse's proposed from Chambers Street to Bay Ridge, so there's no point in wasting more breath on it.

 

Assuming the Williamsburg Bridge is resignalled to allow more than 24 trains per hour, the  and  can be increased to run more than 12 TPH each. Which line should be increased in that case? The  would be the logical answer, since it goes to Midtown, but it has many merges in Manhattan and Queens, and could exacerbate delays in those areas unless certain switches are upgraded to allow for higher-speed operation. The  doesn't have any convenient short-turn locations besides Broadway Junction, and terminating the additional trains there would almost defeat the purpose of increasing service.  Assuming Jamaica Center can only turn 12 TPH, the extra service would have to terminate at Crescent Street or 111th Street, both of which would require fumigation with current operating procedures, thus also increasing the potential for delays.

Edited July 11, 2018 by P3F

[bobtehpanda]

1 hour ago, P3F said:

I guess we'll have to leave this as a disagreement, then. This "station consolidation" is about as likely to happen as Wallyhorse's proposed from Chambers Street to Bay Ridge, so there's no point in wasting more breath on it.

 

Assuming the Williamsburg Bridge is resignalled to allow more than 24 trains per hour, the  and  can be increased to run more than 12 TPH each. Which line should be increased in that case? The  would be the logical answer, since it goes to Midtown, but it has many merges in Manhattan and Queens, and could exacerbate delays in those areas unless certain switches are upgraded to allow for higher-speed operation. The  doesn't have any convenient short-turn locations besides Broadway Junction, and terminating the additional trains there would almost defeat the purpose of increasing service.  Assuming Jamaica Center can only turn 12 TPH, the extra service would have to terminate at Crescent Street or 111th Street, both of which would require fumigation with current operating procedures, thus also increasing the potential for delays.

The has a total of three merges. It'll be fine.

Edited July 11, 2018 by bobtehpanda

[bobtehpanda]

1 hour ago, R68OnBroadway said:

Sometimes you have to use eminent domain... if we continued to not build certain things because every Tom and Harry didn't want to lose something, we would get nowhere. 

 

You could do that, but closing a station with no replacement will annoy people even if it was barely used, like Aqueduct Racetrack. 

 

What we should do is build the station and use eminent domain to remove the gas station and flower shop. Once they are both removed, construction can begin. Only about half of the gas station property would be needed for the station, so during construction we can build up the other half of the lot and put the flower shop there, leaving only the gas station without property. We could then relocate the gas station to Throop/Broadway/Lorimer in that empty parking lot. By combining these two stations, we have now a much busier station that has a connection to another line and also serves a major street, boosting business there.  Also remember Hewes is 371 and Lorimer is 295 in ridership, so it's not like this stop is going to be packed. 

Closing a station is going to annoy people in general. Who says you need a replacement, particularly for a station that is less than five minutes from the next stations on the line, is a minute away from a station on a different line, and has no bus connections or major destinations right next to it?

[RR503]

10 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

The has a total of three merges. It'll be fine.

You can *barely* do 14tph diverging through Myrtle without creating a rapid transit meditation space. Barring some serious ST addition/switch easement work, I don't think running  service above 12tph is wise. 

Moreover, I think there's a good law of induced demand argument to be made for throwing some meat at the . Those neighborhoods abutting the Jamaica El (especially as one heads east) are among the last in New York which haven't experienced any significant development or economic growth. Maybe I'm overselling the power of transit here, but I'd posit much of that has to do with the quality of  service. With skip stop creating what are effectively ten-minute headways along much of the line's route, rush hour commutation is simply a pain. This is to say nothing of service quality in the off-peak, wherein the  has experienced significant cutting since 2008, leaving it with 10 minute headways or worse at all times except for the rushes. Doing some increasing (7.5tph or better at skip-stop stations, and 7.5tph+ during the off peak) would -- I think -- go a long way in improving current users' transit experience, while also creating some (much needed) economic dynamism in served areas. 

[Lance]

I think this is another chicken-egg situation. Should the MTA throw money behind increasing service for a line that barely touches Manhattan and hope for an increase in ridership? Or should they use that money to improve the , the MTA's darling of the East and the line that serves a larger portion of the city? I'll defer to your expertise as I don't frequent either line all that much.

18 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

It isn't all that ridiculous. How many stations did we close during the last round of lengthening? Each station is added maintenance and staffing costs. We're going to take how many years to renovate all the stations, and for how much?

For the record, we've only closed three stations due to station lengthening: 91 Street (Broadway), 18 Street (Park Ave South) and Worth St (Lafayette St). City Hall doesn't count because, for all its grandeur, nobody really used that station, preferring the nearby and much more useful Brooklyn Bridge express station. All other stations were far enough from each other to warrant keeping them open.

10 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

Closing a station is going to annoy people in general. Who says you need a replacement, particularly for a station that is less than five minutes from the next stations on the line, is a minute away from a station on a different line, and has no bus connections or major destinations right next to it?

While I'm supportive of building a station equidistant from Hewes St and Lorimer St, I cannot in good faith support simply closing down one station and forcing riders to use the next available one down the line. One thing I've noticed every time this discussion is had is the assumption that people just teleport to these stations, so a small increase in commute time is okay. Thing is, that extra five minutes or so from Hewes St to Lorimer St is likely on top of however long it takes to actually get to Hewes St. It's the same reason why Intervale Av was rebuilt in the early '90s despite being practically on top of the nearby Simpson St station. A Union Ave station, while a bit further away than Hewes St, will be a shorter walk than it would be to Lorimer St, especially in inclement weather.

Also, simply closing Hewes St runs the risk of overwhelming Lorimer St and/or Marcy Av since all of those riders from Hewes St will be forced to use the nearby stations. At least with a new build station at Union Ave, it can be built to handle the capacity of the replaced stations, as well as give a useful transfer to the  at Broadway, rather than another lengthy passageway on par with the Court Square transfer.

[R68OnBroadway]

For now, I think we should only build a stop at Union, close Hewes/Lorimer, and rebuild Myrtle using the old upper level and a Lewis Av curve. The rest should be put up for later consideration.

[officiallyliam]

17 minutes ago, R68OnBroadway said:

For now, I think we should only build a stop at Union, close Hewes/Lorimer, and rebuild Myrtle using the old upper level and a Lewis Av curve. The rest should be put up for later consideration.

How much later? We don't really have time for procrastination when it comes to making our transit suitable for today, as well as ready for tomorrow.

Investments that might seem somewhat frivolous today could quite possibly turn out to be necessities in a few years, when it'll be even harder to disrupt subway service to get capital projects done.

[VIP]

There’s literally only ONE R32 set running on the  today.

[trainfan22]

1 hour ago, VIP said:

There’s literally only ONE R32 set running on the  today.

There was three sets during the PM Rush.

[kosciusko]

Is there a (new?) timer between 8th street and Prince street  on the southbound track? I've noticed trains slow down to a jog then speed up as they enter the station.
Why is that timer there?

[RestrictOnTheHanger]

1 hour ago, kosciusko said:

Is there a (new?) timer between 8th street and Prince street  on the southbound track? I've noticed trains slow down to a jog then speed up as they enter the station.
Why is that timer there?

There is a one shot timer in the middle of Prince st, but i think it is not new. 

[j express]

4 hours ago, VIP said:

There’s literally only ONE R32 set running on the  today.

Your forgetting the  put ins. 

[kosciusko]

41 minutes ago, RestrictOnTheHanger said:

There is a one shot timer in the middle of Prince st, but i think it is not new. 

Why though