SUBWAY - Random Thoughts Topic

[Trainmaster5]

On 2/13/2021 at 2:48 PM, Lawrence St said:

So my conductor friend just told me that its against the rules to change the route on your trainset even when its to cause less confusion for the passengers. Why is this even a rule? If an gets rerouted to 145th St, would it not make more sense to change the signage to a to cause less confusion for passengers? Again, why is the always backwards?

My Conductor and I experienced this problem firsthand when the R142 cars came to the line. Our last trip was from Dyre Avenue to Utica Avenue. Unfortunately there was no program for that or the run to New Lots that was also a scheduled interval when the cars were new.. We had a TSS tell us to use Bowling Green as the destination. We countered with using the existing Flatbush program and making manual announcements from Borough Hall to Franklin Avenue that the destination was Utica. He said that we couldn't do that and we would be written up for doing just that. Our regular riders knew the final destination so they would advise the people on the platform that the last Flatbush train had passed already and if they were heading to Brooklyn to get on board even though the signs read Bowling Green. We even suggested using a to Utica program from 125th St s/b and the TSS pulled rank and nixed the idea. Finally the General Superintendent of the IRT heard from my rabbi about our problem with the TSS and ordered the young man to leave us alone from that day forward. Many old time RTO people know that the General had no respect for the TSS folks. He used to have them walk his dogs when he was in the other division. My line Superintendent and his deputy were terrified of the guy but my Conductor and I could ask him for anything and he'd have our backs. I threw my original rule book out about 20 years ago but there probably was a rule about improper signage but my partner and I were also told to do what we thought was best and contest the rules later on. Common sense isn't so common in Transit any more, especially when so many people fear for their jobs. Just my experience. This is a very different era.  Carry on. 

[mrsman]

57 minutes ago, Trainmaster5 said:

My Conductor and I experienced this problem firsthand when the R142 cars came to the line. Our last trip was from Dyre Avenue to Utica Avenue. Unfortunately there was no program for that or the run to New Lots that was also a scheduled interval when the cars were new.. We had a TSS tell us to use Bowling Green as the destination. We countered with using the existing Flatbush program and making manual announcements from Borough Hall to Franklin Avenue that the destination was Utica. He said that we couldn't do that and we would be written up for doing just that. Our regular riders knew the final destination so they would advise the people on the platform that the last Flatbush train had passed already and if they were heading to Brooklyn to get on board even though the signs read Bowling Green. We even suggested using a to Utica program from 125th St s/b and the TSS pulled rank and nixed the idea. Finally the General Superintendent of the IRT heard from my rabbi about our problem with the TSS and ordered the young man to leave us alone from that day forward. Many old time RTO people know that the General had no respect for the TSS folks. He used to have them walk his dogs when he was in the other division. My line Superintendent and his deputy were terrified of the guy but my Conductor and I could ask him for anything and he'd have our backs. I threw my original rule book out about 20 years ago but there probably was a rule about improper signage but my partner and I were also told to do what we thought was best and contest the rules later on. Common sense isn't so common in Transit any more, especially when so many people fear for their jobs. Just my experience. This is a very different era.  Carry on. 

wow.  Your observations are invaluable, but it is unfortunate that common sense no longer prevails.  

It would seem that, from the perspective of passenger service, that a Dyre to Utica run, especially if it is a rare run, should be a  until 125 St and then a  further south.  Passengers in Manhattan in Brooklyn would see no difference  from a regular  train, so why confuse them?  There really is no difference between a  and  in Manhattan, so the Bronx people probably care less what will happen to the train when it reaches Brooklyn.  And a simple announcement along the lines of "this  train will now run as a  Downtown and to Brooklyn terminating at Utica Ave" once at the 125th st station would probably be sufficient for everyone else.

[Storm]

On 2/11/2021 at 11:10 AM, VIP said:

They need to keep this energy with the Astoria line and get RID of the useless  line

hm. Do you know about Astoria? It needs two lines. Do you know why the  ran to ditmars from 2010-16? Because of ridership. Astoria can't run on just one line, that would be chaos. Anyway, the  is sort of useless, but what if there were significant delays on the express track on Broadway? The  would come to the rescue. So it doesn't hurt to have a backup.

 

On 2/13/2021 at 2:48 PM, Lawrence St said:

So my conductor friend just told me that its against the rules to change the route on your trainset even when its to cause less confusion for the passengers. Why is this even a rule? If an gets rerouted to 145th St, would it not make more sense to change the signage to a to cause less confusion for passengers? Again, why is the always backwards?

You are 100% right. If an  train did get rerouted, then it should be changed to a /. The  didn't think that one through.

[QM1to6Ave]

It’s a few months old but I just happened upon this article about S/As. The whole “not handling cash because of COVID” logic is nonsense, and it seems that even the S/As don’t quite know how to justify their jobs anymore since they aren’t allowed to handle cash or combine cards (or do much of anything besides sit unmasked in a booth all day. 
 

https://www.amny.com/news/station-clerks-worry-about-their-jobs-as-mta-talks-layoffs/

Edited February 15, 2021 by QM1to6Ave

[Lawrence St]

1 hour ago, QM1to6Ave said:

It’s a few months old but I just happened upon this article about S/As. The whole “not handling cash because of COVID” logic is nonsense, and it seems that even the S/As don’t quite know how to justify their jobs anymore since they aren’t allowed to handle cash or combine cards (or do much of anything besides sit unmasked in a booth all day. 
 

https://www.amny.com/news/station-clerks-worry-about-their-jobs-as-mta-talks-layoffs/

is saying that their broke but S/A's are sitting in the booth doing nothing and catching attitudes when you ask them for a mask...

[Lawrence St]

4 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

My Conductor and I experienced this problem firsthand when the R142 cars came to the line. Our last trip was from Dyre Avenue to Utica Avenue. Unfortunately there was no program for that or the run to New Lots that was also a scheduled interval when the cars were new.. We had a TSS tell us to use Bowling Green as the destination. We countered with using the existing Flatbush program and making manual announcements from Borough Hall to Franklin Avenue that the destination was Utica. He said that we couldn't do that and we would be written up for doing just that. Our regular riders knew the final destination so they would advise the people on the platform that the last Flatbush train had passed already and if they were heading to Brooklyn to get on board even though the signs read Bowling Green. We even suggested using a to Utica program from 125th St s/b and the TSS pulled rank and nixed the idea. Finally the General Superintendent of the IRT heard from my rabbi about our problem with the TSS and ordered the young man to leave us alone from that day forward. Many old time RTO people know that the General had no respect for the TSS folks. He used to have them walk his dogs when he was in the other division. My line Superintendent and his deputy were terrified of the guy but my Conductor and I could ask him for anything and he'd have our backs. I threw my original rule book out about 20 years ago but there probably was a rule about improper signage but my partner and I were also told to do what we thought was best and contest the rules later on. Common sense isn't so common in Transit any more, especially when so many people fear for their jobs. Just my experience. This is a very different era.  Carry on. 

I can see what you mean. When the ran via Broadway for the first time, a conductor signed up his train as an to Atlantic Av and when we got to Canal St, I could hear the TSS screaming his head off at the conductor for "improper signage". I honestly felt bad for him...

And it wasn't even his fault, its whoever was suppose to update the AAS programs prior to the G.O starting...which was 3 weeks.

[R10 2952]

2 hours ago, QM1to6Ave said:

It’s a few months old but I just happened upon this article about S/As. The whole “not handling cash because of COVID” logic is nonsense, and it seems that even the S/As don’t quite know how to justify their jobs anymore since they aren’t allowed to handle cash or combine cards (or do much of anything besides sit unmasked in a booth all day. 
 

https://www.amny.com/news/station-clerks-worry-about-their-jobs-as-mta-talks-layoffs/

Yes, it's pure bullshit; lot of the business refusing to accept cash were/are simply using the coronavirus as a convenient excuse because they would rather not deal with cash in the first place.

[NewFlyer 230]

12 hours ago, QM1to6Ave said:

It’s a few months old but I just happened upon this article about S/As. The whole “not handling cash because of COVID” logic is nonsense, and it seems that even the S/As don’t quite know how to justify their jobs anymore since they aren’t allowed to handle cash or combine cards (or do much of anything besides sit unmasked in a booth all day. 
 

https://www.amny.com/news/station-clerks-worry-about-their-jobs-as-mta-talks-layoffs/

The whole not being able to handle cash thing annoyed me a few weeks ago at 169th street on the  . I first went to the Metrocard vending machine to refill my card but for some reason the machine was acting up. So I tried another machine and the same thing happened. So I’m like no big deal, I had a $50 bill in my wallet so I figured I’d go to the clerk at the booth to see if he could transfer some of the money over to my card. When I asked him, he told me that he couldn’t handle cash and in my head I’m like what are you even here for? I literally just came from a Dunkin not too long ago and they take actual cash. I personally think the MTA & the city is using the pandemic as an excuse to layoff those clerks, because there are still tons of businesses that use cash. They have been wanting to do it for years so this pandemic might be the excuse they needed to finally make the cut happen. The sad thing is that we live in a society in which people are scared to speak up with the fear of losing their jobs. This whole not taking cash rule in my opinion is simply an experiment to see whether or not the system can function efficiently without the clerks. I don’t see them getting rid of all clerk positions because at stations like Jamaica Center, Flushing Main Street, Atlantic Av/ Barclay Center, Penn Station and other busy stations I can see them sticking around for now, but at low ridership stations like, 111th on the  , 21st  and etc, I can see the clerk jobs getting cut.

[Calvin]

Overnight service is slowly being restored. Subway service is running between 4 AM and 2 AM. Between 2-4 AM, stations are closed for cleaning. 

[T to Dyre Avenue]

23 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

My Conductor and I experienced this problem firsthand when the R142 cars came to the line. Our last trip was from Dyre Avenue to Utica Avenue. Unfortunately there was no program for that or the run to New Lots that was also a scheduled interval when the cars were new.. We had a TSS tell us to use Bowling Green as the destination. We countered with using the existing Flatbush program and making manual announcements from Borough Hall to Franklin Avenue that the destination was Utica. He said that we couldn't do that and we would be written up for doing just that. Our regular riders knew the final destination so they would advise the people on the platform that the last Flatbush train had passed already and if they were heading to Brooklyn to get on board even though the signs read Bowling Green. We even suggested using a to Utica program from 125th St s/b and the TSS pulled rank and nixed the idea. Finally the General Superintendent of the IRT heard from my rabbi about our problem with the TSS and ordered the young man to leave us alone from that day forward. Many old time RTO people know that the General had no respect for the TSS folks. He used to have them walk his dogs when he was in the other division. My line Superintendent and his deputy were terrified of the guy but my Conductor and I could ask him for anything and he'd have our backs. I threw my original rule book out about 20 years ago but there probably was a rule about improper signage but my partner and I were also told to do what we thought was best and contest the rules later on. Common sense isn't so common in Transit any more, especially when so many people fear for their jobs. Just my experience. This is a very different era.  Carry on. 

 

18 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

I can see what you mean. When the ran via Broadway for the first time, a conductor signed up his train as an to Atlantic Av and when we got to Canal St, I could hear the TSS screaming his head off at the conductor for "improper signage". I honestly felt bad for him...

And it wasn't even his fault, its whoever was suppose to update the AAS programs prior to the G.O starting...which was 3 weeks.

I feel like some of these TSS guys are a prime example of the MTA’s top down, ”because-I-said-so” attitude. This  conductor tried to do right by the passengers who would have been confused by an  train stopping at Canal. And you, @Trainmaster5 and your partner doing right by the passengers by attempting to put on the  program on that Utica-bound , because there was no such program at the time.  

21 hours ago, mrsman said:

wow.  Your observations are invaluable, but it is unfortunate that common sense no longer prevails.  

It would seem that, from the perspective of passenger service, that a Dyre to Utica run, especially if it is a rare run, should be a  until 125 St and then a  further south.  Passengers in Manhattan in Brooklyn would see no difference  from a regular  train, so why confuse them?  There really is no difference between a  and  in Manhattan, so the Bronx people probably care less what will happen to the train when it reaches Brooklyn.  And a simple announcement along the lines of "this  train will now run as a  Downtown and to Brooklyn terminating at Utica Ave" once at the 125th st station would probably be sufficient for everyone else.

Amazing how SEPTA - yes, that  - managed to do something like that on their Regional Rail trains in the R-era (1984-2009). And without programmable electronic signs - Regional Rail was mostly Silverliner 2-4 cars at this time, with the first few Silverliner 5 cars coming on line in 2009, just as SEPTA phased out the R-numbers. The R-routes were based on S-bahn systems of Germany and Paris’ RER system. However, few  Regional Rail trains actually operated from one end of their R-route to the other. I seem to recall mostly R5, R7 and R8 trains doing so. No R6 trains operated through from Norristown to Bala Cynwyd; in fact, trains from Norristown signed R6 almost always operated through to Wilmington, which was the south end of the R2 route. Likewise, trains leaving Warminster, the north end of the R2, mostly went to Philadelphia Airport signed as R1 trains upon leaving Suburban Station. I witnessed SEPTA crews change the signs at Suburban. They were these metal plates painted in the R# line color with the destination printed on them and the crews just slid out the old signs and slid in the new ones during the dwell time in Suburban. No fuss, no muss, no power-trip supervisors berating the crews.

Edited February 16, 2021 by T to Dyre Avenue

[Deucey]

11 hours ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

This whole not taking cash rule in my opinion is simply an experiment to see whether or not the system can function efficiently without the clerks.

It started because of droplets, folks not washing/sanitizing hands because of the hand sanitizer shortage, and because “tittay money” is sweaty. Businesses kept taking cash because 1) they likely didn’t have a POS setup because of debit and internet fees, 2) there was talk in 2019 of a law in the city to mandate accepting cash, and 3) easier to lower taxes by under reporting cash transactions (like tipped staff do when getting cash tips).

But I don’t think that your premise will pan out - OMNY may negate token booth staff from touching any MetroCard, but they’ll still need to do issues resolution when machines go down or folks need fare media transfers when something goes wrong.

[paulrivera]

On 2/15/2021 at 12:11 AM, QM1to6Ave said:

It’s a few months old but I just happened upon this article about S/As. The whole “not handling cash because of COVID” logic is nonsense, and it seems that even the S/As don’t quite know how to justify their jobs anymore since they aren’t allowed to handle cash or combine cards (or do much of anything besides sit unmasked in a booth all day. 
 

https://www.amny.com/news/station-clerks-worry-about-their-jobs-as-mta-talks-layoffs/

When all the machines are down and you don't have a balance left on your Metrocard, they can buzz you in right away as opposed to waiting for someone to open an exit gate or hopping the turnstile.

My unathletic self can't hop or duck under a turnstile to save my life, and I'm too impatient to wait for people in front of a door, so the S/A's are indeed useful for something.

Even if they're there for vanity nowadays, they're still needed in some circumstances.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

On 2/15/2021 at 12:11 AM, QM1to6Ave said:

It’s a few months old but I just happened upon this article about S/As. The whole “not handling cash because of COVID” logic is nonsense, and it seems that even the S/As don’t quite know how to justify their jobs anymore since they aren’t allowed to handle cash or combine cards (or do much of anything besides sit unmasked in a booth all day. 
 

https://www.amny.com/news/station-clerks-worry-about-their-jobs-as-mta-talks-layoffs/

The plan is still to layoff station clerks. Fine by me. Most are rude anyway. You won't see me out there yelling to stop the cuts. I haven't heard of any advocacy groups talking about that either.

https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/ny-subway-token-booths-closed-20201231-d5xyb36fkfgrrjb5kwb2sgndeq-story.html

Edited February 16, 2021 by Via Garibaldi 8

[QM1to6Ave]

8 hours ago, paulrivera said:

When all the machines are down and you don't have a balance left on your Metrocard, they can buzz you in right away as opposed to waiting for someone to open an exit gate or hopping the turnstile.

My unathletic self can't hop or duck under a turnstile to save my life, and I'm too impatient to wait for people in front of a door, so the S/A's are indeed useful for something.

Even if they're there for vanity nowadays, they're still needed in some circumstances.

With OMNY, as long as you have a contactless card, that's another solution to the rare situation you describe. I know not everyone has one, but the situation you  describe is unusual enough that I don't think the S/A's role is that useful. Plus, I rarely go into entrances that have an S/A sitting there anyway. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

13 minutes ago, QM1to6Ave said:

With OMNY, as long as you have a contactless card, that's another solution to the rare situation you describe. I know not everyone has one, but the situation you  describe is unusual enough that I don't think the S/A's role is that useful. Plus, I rarely go into entrances that have an S/A sitting there anyway. 

Aside from that, there will be an OMNY card sometime this year, and I believe you'll be able to eventually refill ANYWHERE, similar to the way you can buy your e-tickets sitting at home for the LIRR or MNRR, so their role in their current position becomes even less relevant. If they want to keep them around, have them walk around and provide information outside of the booths. We're in 2021 now. The same jobs won't be available forever. The unions need to get that and accept the changes to technology, as they are not going away. See how these workers can keep their jobs and be of use to the riding public.

[bobtehpanda]

11 hours ago, paulrivera said:

When all the machines are down and you don't have a balance left on your Metrocard, they can buzz you in right away as opposed to waiting for someone to open an exit gate or hopping the turnstile.

My unathletic self can't hop or duck under a turnstile to save my life, and I'm too impatient to wait for people in front of a door, so the S/A's are indeed useful for something.

Even if they're there for vanity nowadays, they're still needed in some circumstances.

The question is, in 2020 couldn't you theoretically do all of those things with someone on the other side of a Help Point? We've been able to open doors and gates from far away for quite a while now...

[paulrivera]

4 hours ago, QM1to6Ave said:

With OMNY, as long as you have a contactless card, that's another solution to the rare situation you describe. I know not everyone has one, but the situation you  describe is unusual enough that I don't think the S/A's role is that useful. Plus, I rarely go into entrances that have an S/A sitting there anyway. 

OMNY doesn't have all the options I need at the moment. But yea, once OMNY is fully fleshed out I think the S/A's might be slowly (glacial pace tho) phased out. Watch them start with something like daily 7am-11pm and work their way to M-F 7am-11pm, then rush hours only. Low usage stations would lose their S/A completely from there. (wild speculation on my part)

1 hour ago, bobtehpanda said:

The question is, in 2020 couldn't you theoretically do all of those things with someone on the other side of a Help Point? We've been able to open doors and gates from far away for quite a while now...

I haven't seen stations with Help Points at fare control.... 

[QM1to6Ave]

7 hours ago, paulrivera said:

OMNY doesn't have all the options I need at the moment. But yea, once OMNY is fully fleshed out I think the S/A's might be slowly (glacial pace tho) phased out. Watch them start with something like daily 7am-11pm and work their way to M-F 7am-11pm, then rush hours only. Low usage stations would lose their S/A completely from there. (wild speculation on my part)

I haven't seen stations with Help Points at fare control.... 

I think the idea is that they could build help points with cameras or whatever, and the long term savings would be worth it. Its not like SAs intervene in crime or anything else physical that would be lost by replacing them with smart cameras 

[Trainmaster5]

Something from DC and the Washington Post for New Yorkers to ponder. Due to the loss of ridership due to the pandemic DC Metro has increased the wait times between rush hour trains while running fewer trains overall throughout the day. Remember that they have a peak-off peak fare structure down there so it's not an exact comparison but they say that the loss of ridership down there makes this move necessary. They report that the WFH idea and the businesses shedding excess office space is the main reason for this move. I recall mentioning to my fellow forum members that this is the obvious move for the  to make , increased funding or not. The agency already hinted at service reductions months ago and the reasoning dovetails with that of WMATA and the business scene in the capital. This is precisely why I've questioned my fellow posters about packed rush hour trains while the  website, like that of WMATA ,  shows a massive loss of ridership. Guess it boils down to who is accurately portraying the ridership numbers these days. Since the mass transit agencies in the US look to one another for ideas I think we should be aware of this information. The people who head many of these agencies have worked with one another over their careers so the mindset is pretty much the same nationwide. Just thought I'd pass this info to the site. Take it anyway you want to. YMMV. Carry on.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

7 minutes ago, Trainmaster5 said:

Something from DC and the Washington Post for New Yorkers to ponder. Due to the loss of ridership due to the pandemic DC Metro has increased the wait times between rush hour trains while running fewer trains overall throughout the day. Remember that they have a peak-off peak fare structure down there so it's not an exact comparison but they say that the loss of ridership down there makes this move necessary. They report that the WFH idea and the businesses shedding excess office space is the main reason for this move. I recall mentioning to my fellow forum members that this is the obvious move for the  to make , increased funding or not. The agency already hinted at service reductions months ago and the reasoning dovetails with that of WMATA and the business scene in the capital. This is precisely why I've questioned my fellow posters about packed rush hour trains while the  website, like that of WMATA ,  shows a massive loss of ridership. Guess it boils down to who is accurately portraying the ridership numbers these days. Since the mass transit agencies in the US look to one another for ideas I think we should be aware of this information. The people who head many of these agencies have worked with one another over their careers so the mindset is pretty much the same nationwide. Just thought I'd pass this info to the site. Take it anyway you want to. YMMV. Carry on.

Well they already cut back subway service on two lines not too long ago.  I forget which ones. With the crime going on in the subway, you couldn't pay me to take it now. I used to use it on occasion, but now, I either walk or take an Uber for those short subway trips. Any long trips are all done with the express bus. The few trips I have taken since the pandemic with the subway, too many people unmasked or not wearing their mask correctly. No thanks.

[Lawrence St]

Did transit ever convert an R40 Slant into an R40M?

[R32 3838]

1 hour ago, Lawrence St said:

Did transit ever convert an R40 Slant into an R40M?

4461 was converted into a slant, the head car that smashed into the R42 M train on the Williamsburg Bridge.

[Deucey]

Riding a  local on Eastern Pkwy, and the stop announcements now say if there’s elevators at the next station.

When did this start?

[4 via Mosholu]

1 hour ago, Deucey said:

Riding a  local on Eastern Pkwy, and the stop announcements now say if there’s elevators at the next station.

When did this start?

Turns out that the IRT is an afterthought when it comes to things like this; it began with the IND/BMT over the fall before coming to the IRT in the winter.

[paulrivera]

3 hours ago, Deucey said:

Riding a  local on Eastern Pkwy, and the stop announcements now say if there’s elevators at the next station.

When did this start?

 

2 hours ago, 4 via Mosholu said:

Turns out that the IRT is an afterthought when it comes to things like this; it began with the IND/BMT over the fall before coming to the IRT in the winter.

I wonder how many Jessica Ettinger announcements are going to be deleted to make room for these new elevator announcements.