SUBWAY - Random Thoughts Topic

[Lance]

 

No. The technology is a piece of crap, but working within their current constraints I'd say it's the best working solution at the moment. Here are the problems:

• It does not actually "know" what station it is approaching. The conductor or train operator must let the train know where it is starting and what route it is taking. The train will then use the wheel rotations to guess where it is. It will be wrong if:
  • It is running on a different track than what the program was expecting. The train will continue to annouce all the local station stops as it's rolling by them even if it is on the express track.
  • The train goes on a detour that takes it completely out of the set route.
• If the conductor or train operator picks the wrong route or sets the wrong station, the train will happily comply with the invalid information.

 

 

Very primitive, indeed. As they install CBTC on lines, I expect them to install detectors before stations to trigger the announcements. With the CBTC equipment, the train knows exactly where it is at all times.

 

These automated annoucements are about as advanced as a 19^th century music box. Only instead of the pins on a rotating cylinder plucking the right teeth on a comb at the right time, and instead of a person winding the right music box to the right position, a conductor of train operator "winds" the train's computer to the right station, and the wheels "pluck" the right audio annoucements at the right time. There's no intelligence behind the mechanism.

It's not as bad as you're making it out to be. The problem with using something other than wheel detection to cue the announcements is the same one that prevents real-time tracking without complex signal upgrades like ATS or CBTC. Above ground, there is obviously the option of GPS tracking for both situations, but below ground, that's not as possible. However, with Transit Wireless wiring the system for internet access, that has the possibility to change.

 

The main problem with the announcements themselves is the archaic software used to trigger them. You're right when you say they have their quirks when it comes to unexpected reroutes. For all the talk of Flexible Information and Notice Display, they aren't all that flexible in a pinch. Say for instance you have a 71 Av-bound M at Bryant Park that has to be rerouted via 63rd Street. Instead of a simple option to tell the computer to reroute the announcement program through 63rd Street instead of 53rd Street, the conductor has to reload the entire option from Metropolitan via 63rd Street and then knock off all stops from Metropolitan through 42 St. All that while the conductor has to inform the passengers of the route change, opening/closing doors in a timely fashion, etc. That's why you often see the announcements/FINDs simply turned off.

 

While this method of only allowing routing options from their terminals was acceptable in the early years of the 142s and 143s, computer technology and software has advanced greatly in the intervening years so we don't need to do these things so backwards. Of course, since we're talking about the MTA, which has this strange aversion to technology at times, the likelihood of this changing any time soon is slim.

[Around the Horn]

I am not familiar with the NTT's announcement system but could there be a electronic"tag" that when read by a detector on the wheel prompts that stations announcement to play?

[R188 7857]

Sometimes the announcements trigger before the station, but sometimes it triggers when in the station. I had an R188 yesterday slowly go into Woodside and like 5 meters before the train's in the station it stops, and the announcement triggers. Turns out there was a local straight infront, so we were delayed. But I was like WTF when it triggered before entering the station..

Edited April 23, 2014 by R188 7857

[CenSin]

I am not familiar with the NTT's announcement system but could there be a electronic"tag" that when read by a detector on the wheel prompts that stations announcement to play?

A little retrofitting and software upgrade might make it work. RFID tags can be attached to tunnel walls or other convenient attachments where they sit and wait for trains to pass through before broadcasting its code. They don't require any power as power is supplied by the tag reader wirelessly.

[Priincenene]

Sometimes the announcements trigger before the station, but sometimes it triggers when in the station. I had an R188 yesterday slowly go into Woodside and like 5 meters before the train's in the station it stops, and the announcement triggers. Turns out there was a local straight infront, so we were delayed. But I was like WTF when it triggered before entering the station..

Yeah, I kept noticing that when some sets get delayed during its route, it slows down and slowly makes a stop and the announcements still go on when it is about to stop.

 

I am not familiar with the NTT's announcement system but could there be a electronic"tag" that when read by a detector on the wheel prompts that stations announcement to play?

That's what I thought too, but I don't think so because sometimes the strip maps get messed up and/or the conductor programs when to set off the trigger announcement because remember, some lines do not have New Tech Trains and still use SMEE's like . Some lines use both NTT/SMEE Sets like the and and some lines have CBTC like the and Edited April 23, 2014 by queenspapi

[ScreechyFlange]

Yeah, I kept noticing that when some sets get delayed during its route, it slows down and slowly makes a stop and the announcements still go on when it is about to stop.

 

That's what I thought too, but I don't think so because sometimes the strip maps get messed up and/or the conductor programs when to set off the trigger announcement because remember, some lines do not have New Tech Trains and still use SMEE's like . Some lines use both NTT/SMEE Sets like the and and some lines have CBTC like the and

I see you joined our Asian kitty squad!! Welcome aboard brother! 

[Priincenene]

I see you joined our Asian kitty squad!! Welcome aboard brother! 

Why thank you I couldn't find a gif that fits this size so I found a large one with them far back and cropped it lol

[realizm]

I see you joined our Asian kitty squad!! Welcome aboard brother! 

 

hey stick to the topic buddy

[Priincenene]

LOL ^ ok!

[Broadway Local]

Here's a random thought.

 

I railfanned today.

 

Of course nobody cares LOL.

[Priincenene]

Ignore the squad lol , but I've been on many R142/A Lex Ave Line with announcements saying the correct stations and the strip maps blink the wrong station (I.e. Bleecker St. but Strip Map shows Canal St)

[XcelsiorBoii4888]

I really thought with the NTT announcements, there was some sensor that the train would pass before the station and by time the third car entered the station the announcement would go off. With the countdown clocks, I thought there were sensors in the tunnel that the train would hit, triggering the mins and the announcement to play when it triggers a sensor near the station. This whole wheel rotation thing seems weird.

[CenSin]

I've been on many R142/A Lex Ave Line with announcements saying the correct stations and the strip maps blink the wrong station (I.e. Bleecker St. but Strip Map shows Canal St)

On the R160s, it's possible that two digital displays within the same car can have different information. Furthermore, the audio annoucements don't always match what's on the display. You'd think that since they're all connected to the same computer, the software programmers would've taken care to provide primitive functionality like keeping all of the displays and announcements in sync.

[realizm]

Here's a random thought.

 

I railfanned today.

 

Of course nobody cares LOL.

Next fanning mission: Express via West End weekend GO (pending). Over and out.

[itmaybeokay]

I really thought with the NTT announcements, there was some sensor that the train would pass before the station and by time the third car entered the station the announcement would go off. With the countdown clocks, I thought there were sensors in the tunnel that the train would hit, triggering the mins and the announcement to play when it triggers a sensor near the station. This whole wheel rotation thing seems weird.

 

Cheapest to implement. To install sensors at every station and on every train - the costs would add up really really quickly. 

[CenSin]

Cheapest to implement. To install sensors at every station and on every train - the costs would add up really really quickly. 

These sensors cost less than a smartphone or a few dozen fluorescent light tubes. But I guess the MTA, being a cash-strapped agency will have to pinch pennies.

 

And the stations don't need sensors. The trains do.

[Lance]

But something has to be at the stations to trigger the announcements and that will likely add up, considering whatever sensors potentially used would have to be able to handle the varying conditions of the underground stations.

 

Like I said, the wheel detector hardware isn't the best for automated announcements. It's not the worst though either. If the MTA can replace the dated software to something would truly be flexible in terms of reroutes, it would make a world of difference. (Adding WiFi connectivity would be an added bonus for easier updates.)

[Broadway Local]

Next fanning mission: Express via West End weekend GO (pending). Over and out.

 

I'm also looking for that, but in my opinion, the express S/B is better for speed, but problem is that a grade timer (30) before 62nd St and Bay Parkway makes it slower for the trains to enter the station.

[realizm]

I'm also looking for that, but in my opinion, the express S/B is better for speed, but problem is that a grade timer (30) before 62nd St and Bay Parkway makes it slower for the trains to enter the station.

 

Yeah true. I think (not sure) that timer in that location is to prevent station overruns at New Uterect/62nd on the since the platforms can barely accommodate a 10 car 60' set or a 8 car 75' set. I think thats why they got that timer there. Its a tight squeeze for the T/O in terms of timing the apply of brake correctly from 40 MPH to the 8/10 car marker if going West End express in the case of the GO or in general.

Edited April 23, 2014 by realizm

[Broadway Local]

Yeah true. I think (not sure) that timer in that location is to prevent station overruns at New Uterect/62nd on the since the platforms can barely accommodate a 10 car 60' set or a 8 car 75' set. I think thats why they got that timer there. Its a tight squeeze for the T/O in terms of timing the apply of brake correctly from 40 MPH to the 8/10 car marker if going West End express in the case of the GO or in general.

 

That, and the speed. The express S/B can reach as high as 46mph at 55th St! Imagine, as it continues, it'll enter the 62nd St station at like around 50mph. As a result, train shakes, and the door panel will scrape the platform edge. 

 

Arriving to the station in 50mph, that's going to be hard for the T/Os to brake!

[realizm]

That, and the speed. The express S/B can reach as high as 46mph at 55th St! Imagine, as it continues, it'll enter the 62nd St station at like around 50mph. As a result, train shakes, and the door panel will scrape the platform edge. 

 

Arriving to the station in 50mph, that's going to be hard for the T/Os to brake!

Good point!

[MHV9218]

Mechanical problems meant my went express from 42nd down, was enjoying the RFW hitting about 39-40 into 14th St. Felt like the old days with an R32/R38 on the .

[Broadway Local]

Feels good to have a fast operator! 

 

If you have a slow or strict one, then yeah, we can't blame them.

[RollOver]

The / can hit 45-46 mph into 42nd and Nostrand southbound via express. Incredible. Also, same goes midway between Fulton and High in either direction, but that's only on extreme rare occasions.

Edited April 24, 2014 by RollOverMyHead

[biGC323232]

Next fanning mission: Express via West End weekend GO (pending). Over and out.

 

I personally love when the   runs express on the west end...Fast trip to Manhattan.