SUBWAY - Random Thoughts Topic

[biGC323232]

The entire discussion has happened already:

I know....i was basically saying they need to look into that sooner like they doing with R and a few other services.making service better at key times of the day..i had to use a late night 5 last week and getting to lex ave adds at least 45 mins to ur trip...i know ridership the biggest reason for no late night lex ave...but just missing a 4 when making that connection at the GC is murder....

[Lance]

Question for you Lance....Would it be hard for the  to extend  5 service to 149-Grand C....Other night im at my friend house in the BX got drop off  at gunhill but next to the   5 not the  2 at about 12:40am... 5 came in like 10mins but then there's the transfering mess...Had to wait 15mins for the  2 then the long walk connection to the  4 which i just missed and had to wait another 17 mins...Would it benifit riders and themselves if they made this move...or no

No. As CenSin stated above, it would make more sense to extend the to 149 St-Grand Concourse and relay at 138 Street on the middle track. Unlike the extension of the to Times Square in 2008, bringing the that far into Midtown would require much more effort.

 

The 5 should go to 42 St-Grand Central.

See above.

 

What could be done is actually extend the 5 to 86th Street and terminate/begin on the downtown express platform there in late nights.  Unless the express tracks are needed otherwise, it allows the transfer to the 4 and 6 going downtown there (uptown, that transfer can be made at 125th) without disrupting other service at 125th or 149th.  

 

If it's not too big of an issue to do late nights, the 5 could be extended to Grand Central then.

What's with this hard on for using the switches at 86 Street? There's nothing at 86 Street that warrants terminating the there, especially when better transit connections exist at 125 Street and Grand Central.

 

So I did end up stopping by Fulton Center and Whitehall St today. No signs of the W at all in Fulton Center (I can't speak for the platforms at Cortlandt tho). Whitehall Street only has the new signs for the late night R and the current R signage on both platforms is still up.

 

Also took the 1 through Cortlandt Street. Its basically only missing tiles, signage and turnstiles (and already has tactile edges in spots).

 

As some people suspected, there are two entrances on the uptown platform, one large one directly into the 2nd floor of the Oculus at the north end and another smaller one into the 2nd floor of the mall near WTC 3 on the south end. The downtown platform will apparently have stairs down to either an intermediate level or into the PATH level of the Oculus near the middle.

We still have a couple of weeks. They may be holding off on the busy stations like Fulton St to avoid confusing riders.

 

Why are the L Stations so close together, especially west of Morgan Ave? Some of them have like a Train length between them.

 

N Express?

The same reason why a lot of the IRT stations are so close together - they were built when cars weren't as prevalent and travel wasn't as much of a viable option back then. It wasn't until the IND built the 8th Avenue line that stations became more spaced out.

 

And to answer this question once and for all:

 

- Ditmars Blvd to Coney Island - Broadway Exp (local on weekends and late nights), Sea Beach Exp (local during late nights)

- 57 Street to Coney Island - Broadway Exp (local during late nights), Brighton Local

- 71 Avenue (Whitehall St during late nights) to 95 Street - Broadway Local

- Ditmars Blvd to Whitehall St - Broadway Local (weekdays only)

 

I know....i was basically saying they need to look into that sooner like they doing with R and a few other services.making service better at key times of the day..i had to use a late night 5 last week and getting to lex ave adds at least 45 mins to ur trip...i know ridership the biggest reason for no late night lex ave...but just missing a 4 when making that connection at the GC is murder....

Agreed, but it's much more likely the would be extended to 149 Street during late nights before it runs all the way to Grand Central.

Edited October 20, 2016 by Lance

[S78 via Hylan]

I would hope not at once. I have had a beggar and showtime performers at the same time. Someone gave money to the beggar, and the showtime performers looked annoyed.

Unfortunately, they went right after each other.

[j express]

I see late night  ridership is very low with the shuttle operating 5 car trains. I can see in the future that the late night service would go to 149 St-GC.   shuttle ridership is high compared to the other late night shuttles from what I see since you still have a good amount of people going to Bay Ridge during the overnight hours with a lot of the riders transferring to/from from the    . Having the   go to Whitehall St is beneficial. 

[Around the Horn]

We still have a couple of weeks. They may be holding off on the busy stations like Fulton St to avoid confusing riders.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking.

 

The sign for the late night is up while the one on the outside track still advises people to take the to 36 Street for the .

 

There were some confused looks from (I assume) tourists, confused as to which track the stopped at, until some of the other riders explained to them what "late night" meant.

[biGC323232]

No. As CenSin stated above, it would make more sense to extend the to 149 St-Grand Concourse and relay at 138 Street on the middle track. Unlike the extension of the to Times Square in 2008, bringing the that far into Midtown would require much more effort.

 

 

See above.

 

 

What's with this hard on for using the switches at 86 Street? There's nothing at 86 Street that warrants terminating the there, especially when better transit connections exist at 125 Street and Grand Central.

 

 

We still have a couple of weeks. They may be holding off on the busy stations like Fulton St to avoid confusing riders.

 

 

The same reason why a lot of the IRT stations are so close together - they were built when cars weren't as prevalent and travel wasn't as much of a viable option back then. It wasn't until the IND built the 8th Avenue line that stations became more spaced out.

 

And to answer this question once and for all:

 

- Ditmars Blvd to Coney Island - Broadway Exp (local on weekends and late nights), Sea Beach Exp (local during late nights)

- 57 Street to Coney Island - Broadway Exp (local during late nights), Brighton Local

- 71 Avenue (Whitehall St during late nights) to 95 Street - Broadway Local

- Ditmars Blvd to Whitehall St - Broadway Local (weekdays only)

 

 

Agreed, but it's much more likely the would be extended to 149 Street during late nights before it runs all the way to Grand Central.

i meant the transfer at 149 st grand concorse not grand central...sorry for the miss understanding..

[N6 Limited]

Before Jamaica Center opened did the and both run local all night to 179th st?

[Daniel The Cool]

Before Jamaica Center opened did the and both run local all night to 179th st?

Only the did but it was later cut to 57th Street-6th Avenue (Later 21st Street-Queensbridge) during the overnights in 1987 once the swap northern terminals. The didn't run local at night until 1997.

[Wallyhorse]

 

 

What's with this hard on for using the switches at 86 Street? There's nothing at 86 Street that warrants terminating the   there, especially when better transit connections exist at 125 Street and Grand Central.

Simply that the at 86th would not interfere with any other lines whatsoever as it would have its own, dedicated level and track to terminate and start on late nights (downtown express track).   Also, 86th is the central business district on the upper east side and a lot of people work in the high-rises (that is only to increase as newer ones come online in the next few years) around there,

[CenSin]

Simply that the at 86th would not interfere with any other lines whatsoever as it would have its own, dedicated level and track to terminate and start on late nights (downtown express track).   Also, 86th is the central business district on the upper east side and a lot of people work in the high-rises (that is only to increase as newer ones come online in the next few years) around there,

Actually it would. To not paraphrase what was said before:

Let’s explore the costs–benefits relationship further…

 

extension to 149 Street–Grand Concourse

Provides (relative to just turning at East 180 Street):

• 1 additional transfer option:
• Provides additional service at 9 additional stations along White Plains Road.

Costs (relative to just turning at East 180 Street):

• 9 additional stations
• Use of the center track at 138 Street–Grand Concourse
• Potential conflict with the in both directions by using the center track to turn; it has to merge first

extension to 86 Street

Provides (relative to an extension to 149 Street–Grand Concourse):

• Provides additional service at 3 additional stations along Lexington Avenue.
• 1 additional transfers option: back to the Bronx
• Half the waiting time to transfer to trains heading downtown

Costs (relative to an extension to 149 Street–Grand Concourse):

• Use of the center track at 138 Street–Grand Concourse
• 7 additional stations worth of trackage, 4 of which are skipped
• Use of the express tracks, which may be needed for work trains and maintenance (think of the track workers and efficiency)
• No transfer between the uptown and downtown platforms; helps nobody going to the Bronx until 125 Street

No it can’t. It merges with the still. It’s no better than the extension to 149 Street–Grand Concourse in this regard.

 

A transfer to the can’t be listed as a benefit. By the time a person walks to the station, they would have been better off waiting for the or to Lexington Avenue–59 Street or 14 Street–Union Square. The combined headways make an average 5-minute wait. It takes 5 minutes to walk over there along the surface and then an additional minute to descend. Keep in mind that the use case scenarios for this kind of transfer are limited since there are better (or equivalent) alternatives in all the cases:

• 96 Street to Lexington Avenue/63 Street: walk
• 5 Avenue/59 Street: walk
• 57 Street–7 Avenue to Broadway/28 Street: transfer to the and walk
• 28 Street and 23 Street: transfer to the or and walk
• 14 Street–Union Square: transfer to the or
• Beyond 14 Street–Union Square: transfer to the in-system

Unless the walk along 86 Street is somehow special; all the instances where I suggest to walk are the same distance as the walk from Lexington Avenue/86 Street to 2 Avenue/86 Street.

 

I wouldn’t count on that. Track work happens during overnight hours. It’s going to be on the express tracks, local tracks, or both. In any case, the flagged zones are going to slow down trains. I wouldn’t count on an express train making promising gains against a local at that time.

So relative to the 9-station extension, the 16-station extension to 86 Street only provides service to an additional 3 stations, a transfer to the back to the Bronx, and half the waiting time to transfer to/from trains downtown.

 

The head-scratcher is why you draw the line at 86 Street as opposed to some more juicy choice like Grand Central–42 Street?? For 5 more stops (3 of which are skipped) on top of the extension to 86 Street, you get 3 more transfers.

• 9 stops, +1 transfer
• 16 stops, +2 transfers
• 21 stops, +5 transfers

You do the math.

 

And then there is this:

From my personal experience the load from Dyre Avenue to East 180th St s/b doesn't fill one car s/b from midnight to 4 am. This is including Friday and Saturday nights. There was actually an extra trip added to the shuttle because there was a time when they ran a 30 minute headway during the 3am to 4am time frame. IMO there's no justification to run the shuttle south of East 180th St. I've worked it as a C/R and a M/M in the midnights and the ridership just doesn't call for that type of extension. Where is this new trip generator located? Let's get back to the .Carry on.

[bstar1]

should really go to Grand Central-42nd overnight hours. Plus similar when go to Times Square-42nd.

[CenSin]

The is cheap to extend and give the best bang for the buck in terms of connections made and ridership. Extending the on the same budget would give you comparatively fewer benefits.

The extension of the to South Ferry–Whitehall Street gives many more options relative to the expense incurred. A mere 9-station extension offers additional transfers to the , , , , , , and . The would have to be extended 25 stations (to 14 Street–Union Square) to give a comparable assortment of options, but having no switch for turning back, the trains would have to be extended 30 stations to terminate at Brooklyn Bridge–City Hall which is more than half the full route!

should really go to Grand Central-42nd overnight hours. Plus similar when go to Times Square-42nd.

I.M.O., they just have no place to terminate the until Times Square–42 Street. But at the same time, they need to provide service to 2 stations in Harlem. The Lexington Avenue Line, on the other hand, already has the local and working it for 10 minutes between trains along the trunk. Edited October 20, 2016 by CenSin

[checkmatechamp13]

To provide better connections to the and reduce the number of three-leg transfers.

 

(If I were running things, it would go all the way to 57 St-7 Av with the becoming express in Brooklyn and the express in Manhattan.)

 

If you were to have that, you might as well have the be express in Brooklyn, since the provides connections to 6th Avenue, whereas the already provides the connection to Broadway.

 

Only the did but it was later cut to 57th Street-6th Avenue (Later 21st Street-Queensbridge) during the overnights in 1987 once the swap northern terminals. The didn't run local at night until 1997.

 

Yeah, it was the that covered the local stops overnight back then.

 

The is cheap to extend and give the best bang for the buck in terms of connections made and ridership. Extending the on the same budget would give you comparatively fewer benefits.

 

I.M.O., they just have no place to terminate the until Times Square–42 Street. But at the same time, they need to provide service to 2 stations in Harlem. The Lexington Avenue Line, on the other hand, already has the local and working it for 10 minutes between trains along the trunk.

 

At one point, they did actually have a train shuttle that ran from 135th to 148th (instead of bus shuttles).

 

Harlem riders are obviously better off than NE Bronx riders by a long shot. They could jump on the shuttle bus or M7/M102 over to the train, or even take the M7 directly to the UWS or Times Square if they wanted to. 

[NewFlyer 230]

At 23rd street they started putting the signs on the station entrances. I don't know remember seeing it last week so it must of happened sometime this week.

[biGC323232]

If you were to have that, you might as well have the be express in Brooklyn, since the provides connections to 6th Avenue, whereas the already provides the connection to Broadway.

 

 

Yeah, it was the that covered the local stops overnight back then.

 

 

At one point, they did actually have a train shuttle that ran from 135th to 148th (instead of bus shuttles).

 

Harlem riders are obviously better off than NE Bronx riders by a long shot. They could jump on the shuttle bus or M7/M102 over to the train, or even take the M7 directly to the UWS or Times Square if they wanted to. 

trains only going to whitehall st.... trains has to stay local

[MHV9218]

What kind of rollsign am I looking at in this photo? A route-mounted 1968-colored scroll...and not one of the IRT ones, either. Steve Zabel production, of course:

 

[NY1635]

Why are select trains terminating at Parsons Blvd and Hillside Avenue during Rush Hours?

[Fresh Pond]

Why are select trains terminating at Parsons Blvd and Hillside Avenue during Rush Hours?

Track work at 179 St

[Javier]

What kind of rollsign am I looking at in this photo? A route-mounted 1968-colored scroll...and not one of the IRT ones, either. Steve Zabel production, of course:

 

Where is that Dean St?

[checkmatechamp13]

trains only going to whitehall st.... trains has to stay local

 

Technically, all the stops are covered if the runs express from 59th Street to Pacific Street. You just transfer from the to the at Pacific Street (or if you want, you can also take the or to reach Lower Manhattan, or stay on until DeKalb so you have the or to Midtown, depending on where you want to go)

 

But I agree in general, overnight trains should be local because the time lost by waiting for the next train outweighs the time savings of skipping the stops.

[P3F]

What kind of rollsign am I looking at in this photo? A route-mounted 1968-colored scroll...and not one of the IRT ones, either. Steve Zabel production, of course:

 

 

 

Where is that Dean St?

 

 

That is Franklin Avenue because there is only one track, and you can see it end at the right edge of the photo.

[CenSin]

If you were to have that, you might as well have the be express in Brooklyn

If you want to do a full analysis of each:

 

express | local | local

• DeKalb Avenue is served by all Broadway routes and the 6 Avenue express.
• The stops at DeKalb Avenue as it does currently.
• The 4 Avenue routes all share the local track between DeKalb Avenue and Atlantic Avenue–Barclays Center.
• Local stations along 4 Avenue have both Broadway and 6 Avenue service.
• Express stations allow for a cross-platform transfer that would not be possible if all the trains ran on the same track.
• Brooklyn-bound passengers requiring Union Street, 9 Street, Prospect Avenue, and 25 Street must transfer to the or at DeKalb Avenue. The average wait for a transfer would be 5 minutes.
• Brooklyn-bound passengers requiring 45 Street or 53 Street must transfer to the at 36 Street. The average wait for a transfer would be 10 minutes.
• The time saved by running express would be 4 minutes (9 minutes versus 13 minutes) running down 4 Avenue.
  • Since that is less than the average wait time, passengers are best served by taking whatever train pulls into the station unless a countdown clock indicates that an express train is 4 or less minutes away.
  • If local trains are ideally spaced (exactly 10 minutes apart), an express train will never catch a local since it runs every 20 minutes. The MTA would have to bunch trains on purpose to instigate cross-platform connections, but that makes service worse at other stations since there would be long periods of waiting before 2 or 3 trains come along.

express | local | local

• If the skips DeKalb Avenue, it would eliminate merging entirely with trains never crossing paths at the junction, eliminating 100% of the congestion even though at night there shouldn’t be much congestion anyway. However, DeKalb Avenue would have no 6 Avenue service.
  • Otherwise, the situation is identical to the above with the Sea Beach and West End routes switched. All the 4 Avenue routes would share the section between DeKalb Avenue and Atlantic Avenue–Barclays Center.
• Local stations would only be served by Broadway routes.
• Compared to the above, passengers would have two choices and half the wait time at 36 Street to transfer to a train to 45 Street or 53 Street.
• The time saved by running express would be 3 minutes (5 minutes versus 8 minutes) running down 4 Avenue.
  • If the stops at DeKalb Avenue, it might as well run local all the way since stopping there means it shares tracks with the other 4 Avenue locals anyway.

local | local | local

• See previous post.

  • Those on the , , , , , and can also take advantage of the increased frequency at Borough Hall, Jay Street–MetroTech, DeKalb Avenue, Atlantic Avenue–Barclays Center, and Smith–9 Streets. Passengers transferring at the latter three stops can also take advantage of local service to decrease the average wait time down to 3 minutes and 20 seconds (assuming their destination is also a 4 Avenue stop between DeKalb Avenue and 36 Street).

• Since all the trains run on the same track, your chance of making a cross-platform transfer at an express station other than DeKalb Avenue is 0%. If you need to transfer, you’re going to be waiting an average of 10 minutes for the right train (5 minutes if you have 2 choices). It’s just like how it is now when your train is waiting at 45 Street while you are helplessly watching the Bay Ridge shuttle’s rear end leaving 53 Street. Waiting for the next one is your only option.

 

From a transit planner’s perspective, it’s pretty hard to decide since the pros and cons of each are pretty balanced. From a passenger’s point of view, the most beneficial plan is one that is the best. In my case, the would still be the fastest train under any of the above plans since it doesn’t go through lower Manhattan. A Broadway local/4 Avenue express doesn’t make sense to me.

Edited October 22, 2016 by CenSin

[TheNewYorkElevated]

That is Franklin Avenue because there is only one track, and you can see it end at the right edge of the photo.

This was before the 90's renovations took place. Man that stop looks so run down. 

[CenSin]

In my case, the would still be the fastest train under any of the above plans since it doesn’t go through lower Manhattan. A Broadway local/4 Avenue express doesn’t make sense to me.

Actually, if merges are to be avoided, the could also participate in the reshuffling of routes:

 

6 Avenue local, 4 Avenue local, West End local, to Coney Island (43 stops)

• …
• 34 Street–Herald Square
• 23 Street
• 14 Street
• West 4 Street–Washington Square
• Broadway–Lafayette Street
• Grand Street
• DeKalb Avenue
• Atlantic Avenue–Barclays Center
• Union Street
• 4 Avenue–9 Street
• Prospect Avenue
• 25 Street
• 36 Street
• 9 Avenue
• Fort Hamilton Parkway
• …

Broadway local, via bridge, 4 Avenue express, Sea Beach local, to Coney Island (39 stops)

• …
• 49 Street
• Times Square–42 Street
• 34 Street–Herald Square
• 28 Street
• 23 Street
• 14 Street–Union Square
• 8 Street–NYU
• Prince Street
• Canal Street
• Atlantic Avenue–Barclays Center
• 36 Street
• 59 Street
• 8 Avenue
• …

Broadway local, via tunnel, Brighton local, to Coney Island (40 stops)

• …
• 49 Street
• Times Square–42 Street
• 34 Street–Herald Square
• 28 Street
• 23 Street
• 14 Street–Union Square
• 8 Street–NYU
• Prince Street
• Canal Street
• City Hall
• Cortlandt Street
• Rector Street
• Whitehall Street–South Ferry
• Court Street
• Jay Street–MetroTech
• DeKalb Avenue
• Atlantic Avenue–Barclays Center
• 7 Avenue
• Prospect Park
• Parkside Avenue
• …

Broadway local, via tunnel, 4 Avenue local, to Bay Ridge (17 stops)

• Whitehall Street–South Ferry
• Court Street
• Jay Street–MetroTech
• DeKalb Avenue
• Atlantic Avenue–Barclays Center
• Union Street
• 4 Avenue–9 Street
• Prospect Avenue
• 25 Street
• 36 Street
• 45 Street
• 53 Street
• 59 Street
• Bay Ridge Avenue
• …

From DeKalb Avenue southbound,

• The comes in, over the bridge, stops at the outer track, and runs down the 4 Avenue local tracks sharing it with the .
• The comes in, over the bridge, bypasses the station using the inner track, and runs down the 4 Avenue express tracks avoiding any interaction with other trains.
• The comes in, via the tunnel on the same track as the , and separates to run down the Brighton Line.
• The comes in, via the tunnel on the same track as the , and separates to run down the 4 Avenue local tracks with the .

The only point of conflict southbound is when a and both simultaneously arrive at DeKalb Avenue. For northbound it’s when the and arrive. In the former case, the cross-platform is useful for passengers who need to reach stops exclusive to either route. In the latter case, the should go first so passengers can transfer to the that will take them further up in Manhattan. Letting the go first will also prevent backing up a behind it and allow for a cross-platform transfer between the and .

 

It’s not necessary for the to run express along 4 Avenue, however—just over the bridge as it keeps all the related trains on the same track as much as possible rather than the merge-and-diverge thing we have today at DeKalb Avenue. A second local from 36 Street to 59 Street would keep waiting times more bearable there.

Edited October 22, 2016 by CenSin

[Wallyhorse]

That is Franklin Avenue because there is only one track, and you can see it end at the right edge of the photo.

I didn't realize it had been only one track there for a long time before it was rebuilt to what we know it as now in the 1990's.