SUBWAY - Random Thoughts Topic

[Coney Island Av]

Just now, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

What would a deinterlined late night look like?

CPW/8 Av:

 local,  express between 145 St and 59 St,  local 

QBL:

 local,  express (has to share with  east of 71 Av) 

Eastern Pkwy:

 local,  express (has to share with  briefly to switch to local east of Franklin)

4 Av:

 4 Av local,  express

Broadway:

 local,  express 

6 Av:

 express,  local

Lexington Av:

 express,  local

7 Av:

 local,  express (latter terminates at Times Square-42 St)

[Lawrence St]

You forget that the has to cross in front of terminating trains at Times Square.

[Caelestor]

2 hours ago, RR503 said:

Save for the  proposal, most ideas being thrown around here are ones reducing the number of lines at a local station from 2 to 1. My question to you all is whether you think that the resultant increase in median wait time (from 5 to 10 mins) will be outweighed by the express service being provided. I personally don’t think so, but I’ve yet to do the math.

When doing those calculations, I’d also keep in mind the irregularity inherent in late night service — I don’t want to go too mathy on you all, but the standard deviation in headways generally increases as the scheduled headway increases — that’s another factor that must be taken into account. Moreover, the fewer lines at any station, the more riders from there have to transfer — in other words the more they’re subjected to that late night irregularity. Again, I think that given single line infrequency at those hours, preserving connectivity and aggregate frequency needs to be prioritized, rather than sacrificed to benefit a few to the tune of a few minutes. 

Now, as for the  express proposal. While it may save riders a or 2 minutes between Barclays and Franklin, the  would have to cross back onto the local track after Franklin — meaning it must share with the , even if it is for just a short stretch. I’d thus much rather save folks at EP local stations the time and transfers than do this, given that it really isn’t helping operationally. 

Many people here overestimate the time savings of express trains and underestimate wait times. During late nights with fewer riders, stop penalties are considerably lower, roughly 30 seconds each. Were the  to run local between Jackson Heights and Forest Hills, 6 Ave riders east of Forest Hills would have a trip that takes 2 minutes longer, but all those riders in between would save the transfer penalties. However, I don't think the should run local between Queensbridge and Jackson Heights because ridership at those stops is much less and the trip time penalty is longer, ~4 minutes, because the express tracks take the direct route under Northern Blvd.

FWIW I would also advocate for the  to stop at 14 St and 23 St because they have high ridership, but 23 St is closed right now and the  will be running full-time local starting next year, so the  should be reevaluated in 2020. 

As for deinterlining, there's no point doing so during late nights when all trains are running at 20 minute intervals.

[biGC323232]

Ok but what about the rest of the systems thats not lucky to have an express run lcl to help waiting times..Its only midtown they do this thus making trips longer for the outer boro customers..i see no one mention  the  being much much longer route late nights once it starts to replace  trains.....if anything they need to have   trains operate late nights from Wtc-145 to keep the  express in manhattan so that route wont be as long as it is....

[Lance]

3 hours ago, Coney Island Av said:

Before, the following lines used to run express during nights:

...

- between 125 St and Brooklyn Bridge (when the  operated to Brooklyn Bridge late nights during the 90s)

Slight correction here: The has been a late-night local since 1980 when service was cut back to 125 Street during the overnight hours. Unlike the west side where there continued to be two services during the overnight hours (the  local and  express), the east side had to contend with only service until 1999 when transit advocates pushed for more late night local service on the IRT.

29 minutes ago, biGC323232 said:

Ok but what about the rest of the systems thats not lucky to have an express run lcl to help waiting times..Its only midtown they do this thus making trips longer for the outer boro customers..i see no one mention  the  being much much longer route late nights once it starts to replace  trains.....if anything they need to have   trains operate late nights from Wtc-145 to keep the  express in manhattan so that route wont be as long as it is....

That's a separate issue, caused by the fact that the local is a direct equivalent to the daytime , which is why it's the one to run local in Manhattan, rather than the , where direct Central Park West - 8th Ave service would be lost. I believe this problem should be solved with either late night  service in Manhattan or by taking a cue from the , which doesn't start late night local service until well after midnight (which would obviously also require expanded hours).

[R68OnBroadway]

Here are a few ideas I have for improving late night service:

 extended to 14th to add a connection to the  and  

 extension to GCT via Lex express

 runs local late night to Lefferts, decreasing headways and eliminating the shuttle- keep in mind the  would still run local

 late night extension to Essex

 

Edited August 8, 2018 by R68OnBroadway
said increasing instead of decreasing

[Daniel The Cool]

8 hours ago, Coney Island Av said:

- between 125 St and Brooklyn Bridge (when the  operated to Brooklyn Bridge late nights during the 90s)

You are incorrect about the  . The  started running local during the overnights beginning in the 1980s. The  was cut to 125th Street until around 1999 when they decided to extend the late night  back to Brooklyn Bridge but kept the  local.

[GreatOne2k]

10 hours ago, Coney Island Av said:

The only lines that run express during late nights are:

- between 96 St and 42 St

- between 145 St and West 4 St

- between Forest Hills-71 Av and 21 St-Queensbridge

Before, the following lines used to run express during nights:

- between 96 St and 14 St (weekends only until June 2018)

- between 125 St and Brooklyn Bridge (weekends only until June 2018)

- between 57 St-7 Av and Canal St (until 2015)

- between 96 St and Chambers St (until 1999)

- between 125 St and Brooklyn Bridge (when the  operated to Brooklyn Bridge late nights during the 90s)

- between Forest Hills-71 Av and Queens Plaza (until 1997)

- between 59 St and 36 St (northbound only until 2016)

But IMO it would be good to make the  express on 4 Av during late nights. The  and  both can adequately cover the local stops. Yes, riders lose 6 Av service at Dekalb, but that's the case on weekends when the  doesn't run.  to Whitehall is a non-starter due to making one long trip even longer. 

I agree with running the  express between Franklin Av and Borough Hall because it already skips Hoyt St during late nights. Having it run express would eliminate the need for it to merge with the  at Nevins and would not only speed up service, but it would also eliminate merging. 

Additional late night express service in bold

[GreatOne2k]

1 hour ago, Daniel The Cool said:

You are incorrect about the  . The  started running local during the overnights beginning in the 1980s. The  was cut to 125th Street until around 1999 when they decided to extend the late night  back to Brooklyn Bridge but kept the  local.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6_(New_York_City_Subway_service)

Someone posted this:

From January 21 to October 5, 1990, late night service was extended back to Brooklyn Bridge when late night express service on the 4 was restored. But the 6 was then cut back to 125th Street for the last time when late-night express service on the 4 in Manhattan was permanently discontinued.

October 6 1990 would have been the last day as the 5th was a Friday.

Anyone have a 1990 map service guide or ,  schedules that can confirm or deny this?

Edited August 8, 2018 by GreatOne2k

[Lawrence St]

19 minutes ago, GreatOne2k said:

Additional late night express service in bold

Hold up when did the run express during late nights? I thought they had 241 St-Bowling Green or Flatbush Av local-only service.

[S78 via Hylan]

22 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

Hold up when did the run express during late nights? I thought they had 241 St-Bowling Green or Flatbush Av local-only service.

When it ran in place of the  during the Clark St repair work, it ran express unless there were GOs that had it run local.

Edited August 8, 2018 by S78 via Hylan

[Abba]

I believe (5) is always express whenever it runs on lex including late nights unless G.O.s

[Calvin]

Yes, for the  , it's Express on Lexington Av most of the time except late nights. With the in the Bronx, only rush hour peak direction with some late AM trains to E.180 St on that direction

[Daniel The Cool]

5 hours ago, GreatOne2k said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6_(New_York_City_Subway_service)

Someone posted this:

From January 21 to October 5, 1990, late night service was extended back to Brooklyn Bridge when late night express service on the 4 was restored. But the 6 was then cut back to 125th Street for the last time when late-night express service on the 4 in Manhattan was permanently discontinued.

October 6 1990 would have been the last day as the 5th was a Friday.

Anyone have a 1990 map service guide or ,  schedules that can confirm or deny this?

Once again Do Not Take whatever someone puts on Wiki as accurate sources. 

[Union Tpke]

7 hours ago, GreatOne2k said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6_(New_York_City_Subway_service)

Someone posted this:

From January 21 to October 5, 1990, late night service was extended back to Brooklyn Bridge when late night express service on the 4 was restored. But the 6 was then cut back to 125th Street for the last time when late-night express service on the 4 in Manhattan was permanently discontinued.

October 6 1990 would have been the last day as the 5th was a Friday.

Anyone have a 1990 map service guide or ,  schedules that can confirm or deny this?

@Eric B This is from your website. Do you know where you got this information from?

[Eric B]

A lot of that would be from The Bulletin, Electric Railroader's Association, New York Division (sources listed at bottom of page). The IRT stuff in particular might be from "IRT Brooklyn Schedule changes: Sept, Oct, 1991". Some of it might be from my own memory, but with specific dates like that, it's likely something I got from the Bulletin.

[Union Tpke]

26 minutes ago, Eric B said:

A lot of that would be from The Bulletin, Electric Railroader's Association, New York Division (sources listed at bottom of page). The IRT stuff in particular might be from "IRT Brooklyn Schedule changes: Sept, Oct, 1991". Some of it might be from my own memory, but with specific dates like that, it's likely something I got from the Bulletin.

@Daniel The Cool

[trainfan22]

I love riding in 143 set 8277-8280, this set is much cleaner than the other 143s and the end windows are clear like the CI 160s.

[NYCSubwayFanatic16]

21 minutes ago, trainfan22 said:

I love riding in 143 set 8277-8280, this set is much cleaner than the other 143s and the end windows are clear like the CI 160s.

That's because that set was involved in the Canarsie Yard incident in 2006 and it was OOS from the accident till December 2017 because of repairs. One of the cars still has half of the 2001 transfers on the strip map under 6th Av since the bottom half was ripped out for some reason then the transfer at Union Square has the 2010 sticker over it and has the original shown but a single sticker over <Q>. And also 8280 has the old evacuation decal on the wall. 

Edited August 8, 2018 by NYCSubwayFanatic16

[trainfan22]

3 hours ago, NYCSubwayFanatic16 said:

That's because that set was involved in the Canarsie Yard incident in 2006 and it was OOS from the accident till December 2017 because of repairs. One of the cars still has half of the 2001 transfers on the strip map under 6th Av since the bottom half was ripped out for some reason then the transfer at Union Square has the 2010 sticker over it and has the original shown but a single sticker over <Q>. And also 8280 has the old evacuation decal on the wall. 

I know it's the set from the Canarsie wreck...

[Around the Horn]

Another doze of a commute on the  this evening...

Got to Cortlandt and the train came in 6 minutes-OK. However, the damn 46 was absolutely crush loaded and sat for several minutes in each station as people pushed their way on and off the train and the poor conductor kept reopening and closing the doors multiple times. By the time we got to Atlantic, we were 6 minutes late and to make matters worse we got held outside of 36th to allow an  to cross over, making us over 8 minutes late and meaning that the following  train was literally on our tail. 

At 36th, the dispatcher told them to battery run and do 36th-59th-86th-95th, much to the chagrin of the passengers on the train and waiting at 59th Street. To make matters worse, the following train (that was supposed to make all local stops) broke down at 59th with a door problem. I ended up just taking the B9 home.

TLDR; 75 foot cars are infuriating in rush hour

[Via Garibaldi 8]

2 minutes ago, Around the Horn said:

Another doze of a commute on the  this evening...

Got to Cortlandt and the train came in 6 minutes-OK. However, the damn 46 was absolutely crush loaded and sat for several minutes in each station as people pushed their way on and off the train and the poor conductor kept reopening and closing the doors multiple times. By the time we got to Atlantic, we were 6 minutes late and to make matters worse we got held outside of 36th to allow an  to cross over, making us over 8 minutes late and meaning that the following  train was literally on our tail. 

At 36th, the dispatcher told them to battery run and do 36th-59th-86th-95th, much to the chagrin of the passengers on the train and waiting at 59th Street. To make matters worse, the following train (that was supposed to make all local stops) broke down at 59th with a door problem. I ended up just taking the B9 home.

TLDR; 75 foot cars are infuriating in rush hour

LMAO... I hope you didn't plan on having dinner anytime soon...

[Around the Horn]

1 minute ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

LMAO... I hope you didn't plan on having dinner anytime soon...

At this point, I don't bother LMAO 

[Lawrence St]

I really feel bad for you people. The worse commute I've had is when there was an issue at Bowling Green with fallen wires or something and that delayed the whole Lexington Av line. Not only was it bad enough that the had to be a full local while the got to be the Lexington Av Express, the issue caused so many and trains to back up even the trains started piling up on each other. In the end, there was a 45 minute gap in northbound service cause all the trains were stuck on the southbound track. To make matters worse, all those people waiting for a northbound train packed into the first train they saw and I had someone butt in my face the whole ride home...

[biGC323232]

9 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

I really feel bad for you people. The worse commute I've had is when there was an issue at Bowling Green with fallen wires or something and that delayed the whole Lexington Av line. Not only was it bad enough that the had to be a full local while the got to be the Lexington Av Express, the issue caused so many and trains to back up even the trains started piling up on each other. In the end, there was a 45 minute gap in northbound service cause all the trains were stuck on the southbound track. To make matters worse, all those people waiting for a northbound train packed into the first train they saw and I had someone butt in my face the whole ride home...

Butt in ya face the whole way home..i would have just stood up or move to another car..Lucky for u he didnt past any gas....