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SUBWAY - Random Thoughts Topic

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20 hours ago, QM1to6Ave said:

I always wondered...does anyone take LIRR from Woodside into Penn station to avoid the (7)? It would be quite expensive for such a short distance, but would probably save a lot of time. That seems like one stop that could be used to shift people from the subway to the LIRR's existing capacity if they made a special fare.

They take practically the same amount of time, so it wouldn't be necessary. And people would take a trip costing $2.75 rather than $8.75 any day of the week.

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What’s really a “sick passenger”?? Everyone Can’t have the same conditions delaying service... I’m starting to believe these “sick passengers” are paid by the MTA for cover gaps in service due to equipment failure or inadequatibility... two days in a row at the same station at or around the same time on the Jamaica bound (F) there was a “sick passenger” I don’t buy it. And quite frankly I strongly believe these “sick passengers” should be attended to at the end of the line and not enroute. Maybe it will deter other sick people to stay the hell off the trains. And I wonder why there’s rarely any “sick” passengers on our buses. 🤔

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5 hours ago, Bay Ridge Express said:

They take practically the same amount of time, so it wouldn't be necessary. And people would take a trip costing $2.75 rather than $8.75 any day of the week.

In that case, they should do something similar to the atlantic ticket and lower the price somewhat to get more people to take the lirr for that last leg into the city

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1 hour ago, VIP said:

I’m starting to believe these “sick passengers” are paid by the MTA for cover gaps in service due to equipment failure or inadequatibility

Slow down there, you might wanna take off your tinfoil hat... :lol:

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5 hours ago, VIP said:

What’s really a “sick passenger”?? Everyone Can’t have the same conditions delaying service... I’m starting to believe these “sick passengers” are paid by the MTA for cover gaps in service due to equipment failure or inadequatibility... two days in a row at the same station at or around the same time on the Jamaica bound (F) there was a “sick passenger” I don’t buy it. And quite frankly I strongly believe these “sick passengers” should be attended to at the end of the line and not enroute. Maybe it will deter other sick people to stay the hell off the trains. And I wonder why there’s rarely any “sick” passengers on our buses. 🤔

Harvard wants to know your location.

(Its a meme)

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8 hours ago, VIP said:

Nobody:

You What’s really a “sick passenger”?? Everyone Can’t have the same conditions delaying service... I’m starting to believe these “sick passengers” are paid by the MTA for cover gaps in service due to equipment failure or inadequatibility... two days in a row at the same station at or around the same time on the Jamaica bound (F) there was a “sick passenger” I don’t buy it. And quite frankly I strongly believe these “sick passengers” should be attended to at the end of the line and not enroute. Maybe it will deter other sick people to stay the hell off the trains. And I wonder why there’s rarely any “sick” passengers on our buses. 🤔

 

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10 hours ago, VIP said:

And quite frankly I strongly believe these “sick passengers” should be attended to at the end of the line and not enroute.

Seriously, you don't think about sick passengers delaying things until you see it happen. I got to 74 St-Broadway, and heard someone had passed out on the platform, and saw a man unresponsive very close to the platform edge, with people surrounding him, including the C/R. Someone started to do CPR, and after maybe 10 minutes, EMS arrived and took him away, but service was already well past screwed by then, as it was the 7 during rush hour. Still, it made me realize that sick passenger could be anything from someone who just puked all over a car to someone who might be having a stroke or a heart attack and needs urgent medical attention. Quite possibly he might've not made it in the end; I'm not sure, but I can say that taking him all the way to Hudson Yards would not have been the right course of action, as you suggested they should do. 

 

 

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To add on, if an ailing person on a train were to become sicker or worse in an effort to maintain service, the MTA would face lawsuits left, right and center for failure to provide immediate medical assistance by carting the person across the line. If a person is sick on the train, there isn't much the crew can do other than hold the train and wait for EMS to arrive. That's why one of the items in the Subway Action Plan is/was to expand the number of EMS teams within the subway to minimize the impact of these types of events.

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19 minutes ago, Lance said:

To add on, if an ailing person on a train were to become sicker or worse in an effort to maintain service, the MTA would face lawsuits left, right and center for failure to provide immediate medical assistance by carting the person across the line. If a person is sick on the train, there isn't much the crew can do other than hold the train and wait for EMS to arrive. That's why one of the items in the Subway Action Plan is/was to expand the number of EMS teams within the subway to minimize the impact of these types of events.

What exactly results in a passenger receving the "sick passenger" title? Is it when someone throws up or is it something more serious?

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6 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

What exactly results in a passenger receving the "sick passenger" title? Is it when someone throws up or is it something more serious?

Enough for them to call ems

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3 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

Is it when someone throws up or is it something more serious?

Anything that would make them unable to get off the train safely or by themselves. Could be someone gets dizzy, could be someone vomiting (like, really shooting chunks), or could be something far worse like a heart attack or seizure. 

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4 hours ago, Lance said:

To add on, if an ailing person on a train were to become sicker or worse in an effort to maintain service, the MTA would face lawsuits left, right and center for failure to provide immediate medical assistance by carting the person across the line. If a person is sick on the train, there isn't much the crew can do other than hold the train and wait for EMS to arrive. That's why one of the items in the Subway Action Plan is/was to expand the number of EMS teams within the subway to minimize the impact of these types of events.

So is that why the person caught by their own clothing was found in the East River tunnel?

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15 hours ago, QM1to6Ave said:

In that case, they should do something similar to the atlantic ticket and lower the price somewhat to get more people to take the lirr for that last leg into the city

They should lower the prices in general. IMO, if we take the "express bus with a bathroom" analogy I'd advocate for the fare to be $5-7 (just like the Atlantic Ticket). Don't think it should be $2.75 like the comptroller says but I wouldn't pay close to $10 for it either.

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, Bay Ridge Express said:

So is that why the person caught by their own clothing was found in the East River tunnel?

They weren't found "in the East River tunnel"

IIRC they got dragged maybe 200-300 feet down the tunnel, which in terms of an accelerating train is not that far – it's like half a train length. If the emergency brakes got set off as they were noticed being dragged, depending on their location along the train that's entirely plausible for where the train might have stopped. Besides, it was a freak accident by all accounts. It's not like you hear about that happening every week. 

Edited by Enjineer

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1 hour ago, Enjineer said:

Saw this today at Jay St-MetroTech! I've seen it before but wasn't able to get a photo when I did. 

rp2Ck9q.jpg

that’s the movie train right ?

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56 minutes ago, Maxwell179 said:

that’s the movie train right ?

Yep, someone over on r/nyc who's in production said they're frantically trying to get this car back because it's definitely not supposed to be in service with the prop signs.

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Been reading some posts concerning Bay Ridge (R) service and the ,somewhat, related work train stacking complaints. Starting with the Bay Ridge complaints and being a veteran of the IRT my solution is based on my experiences. Leaving Dyre or WP heading s/b the E180th St supervision or Mott supervision sees a significant gap about to happen on the n/b (2) or (5) line or both. SOP is to turn a s/b train back north at E 180th or 149th-GC to cover that gap. Sometimes a train from both lines is turned back north for service. Same thing would happen further down the line at Brooklyn Bridge, Bowling Green, Times Square, or South Ferry. I don't know the plant on the BMT southern division but I do know that trains can be turned back south at Whitehall and ,IIRC, Court St. That seems to be the easiest solution in my book. Notice that in my IRT solutions nowhere was a (3) or a (6) brought into the mix. The idea was to KISS and keep the problem isolated to affect the minimum amount of service disruption, Why would one extend the (J) line to Bay Ridge? That line is long enough as it is.

Work train stacking on the Fourth Avenue corridor. Surprised it wasn't thought of years ago. I'll go back to my work train experiences mainly in the IRT. Someone asked why work trains weren't stored in every yard. They are sometimes but in the IRT back 30+ years ago it was a matter of yard space. Westchester Yard was the home base for all IRT work trains. Diesels were serviced there, rails, signals, and construction material were stored there. East 180th was out of the question. Space was so tight that we laid up trains on the WPR structure from Pelham Parkway down to Bronx Park East as well as the two layup tracks south of Pelham Parkway on the Dyre line itself. 239th Yard was no better with the (2) , (5) and two refuse trains stored up there as well as (2) trains stored downstairs at Gun Hill Road on the Third Avenue platform level. Lenox barely had room for the money train and 137th yard was out, period. 240th was a no-go before the flyover into 207th was constructed. Trains were laid up nightly from 225th St to 238th St on the structure. I've worked jobs that started at Westchester Yard and the train had to travel to 168th St on the (1), 149th St-GC lower level, Nevins St in Brooklyn, Eastern Parkway-Brooklyn Museum and Franklin Ave and Times Square. Many times these jobs were piggy-backed where two or more work trains were involved with a specific order and direction included. Just think about the travel time and trackage covered just to reach the work site and return to home base the next morning. Many times by the time everyone was in place and the work started we might have two or three hours before we had to pack up and head home. I can remember many mornings when the Joralemon tube, the Lex Express, and the Pelham Express were tied up well past 6 am. That's why, IMO, those work trains are stacked on Fourth Avenue. Just tell the road trains that are scheduled as such to run " express on the local track" which was a simple procedure back in the day. As an aside to those who say store those trains and run them up the West End, or Culver Lines and wait to be slotted in I suggest the following. On a train that's being flagged to a work site, meaning someone standing up on a flat or crane car as the eyes and ears for the diesel operator, I will personally rent a pickup truck and pick a night with wind chills down near zero, and prop you standing up in the bed of said truck while I travel north on Ocean Parkway or McDonald Avenue at 10 or 15 mph while the elements rip you a new one. Just ignore the rain, sleet and wind while we creep toward Downtown Brooklyn on our way to Midtown. Remember to bring an extra set of clothes too. I can almost guarantee the sentiments I just posted is why many present day RTO people have stopped posting regularly. Seems to me that many posters have forgotten that there's a human element involved here too. Joking(?) comments about taking sick customers to a terminal to speed up service. I thought we were better than that. Just my thoughts. Carry on.

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10 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

Been reading some posts concerning Bay Ridge (R) service and the ,somewhat, related work train stacking complaints. Starting with the Bay Ridge complaints and being a veteran of the IRT my solution is based on my experiences. Leaving Dyre or WP heading s/b the E180th St supervision or Mott supervision sees a significant gap about to happen on the n/b (2) or (5) line or both. SOP is to turn a s/b train back north at E 180th or 149th-GC to cover that gap. Sometimes a train from both lines is turned back north for service. Same thing would happen further down the line at Brooklyn Bridge, Bowling Green, Times Square, or South Ferry. I don't know the plant on the BMT southern division but I do know that trains can be turned back south at Whitehall and ,IIRC, Court St. That seems to be the easiest solution in my book. Notice that in my IRT solutions nowhere was a (3) or a (6) brought into the mix. The idea was to KISS and keep the problem isolated to affect the minimum amount of service disruption, Why would one extend the (J) line to Bay Ridge? That line is long enough as it is.

Short turning is useful, especially when you need to thin out heading towards some disruption, but (and I'd really love to hear what your experiences w/ their operation are) gap trains strike me as the better way to work with gaps. Short turning into a gap is as much of a cascade as pulling an interval from another line, whereas a gap train keeps the issue isolated. Problem is, as always, the operational expense of anything in this system...

Bringing a Nassau service to Bay Ridge would (if they can learn how to operate lengthy lines) help with Lower Manhattan O/D traffic -- more ways for people to avoid the IRT. 

10 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

 Work train stacking on the Fourth Avenue corridor. Surprised it wasn't thought of years ago. I'll go back to my work train experiences mainly in the IRT. Someone asked why work trains weren't stored in every yard. They are sometimes but in the IRT back 30+ years ago it was a matter of yard space. Westchester Yard was the home base for all IRT work trains. Diesels were serviced there, rails, signals, and construction material were stored there. East 180th was out of the question. Space was so tight that we laid up trains on the WPR structure from Pelham Parkway down to Bronx Park East as well as the two layup tracks south of Pelham Parkway on the Dyre line itself. 239th Yard was no better with the (2) , (5) and two refuse trains stored up there as well as (2) trains stored downstairs at Gun Hill Road on the Third Avenue platform level. Lenox barely had room for the money train and 137th yard was out, period. 240th was a no-go before the flyover into 207th was constructed. Trains were laid up nightly from 225th St to 238th St on the structure. I've worked jobs that started at Westchester Yard and the train had to travel to 168th St on the (1), 149th St-GC lower level, Nevins St in Brooklyn, Eastern Parkway-Brooklyn Museum and Franklin Ave and Times Square. Many times these jobs were piggy-backed where two or more work trains were involved with a specific order and direction included. Just think about the travel time and trackage covered just to reach the work site and return to home base the next morning. Many times by the time everyone was in place and the work started we might have two or three hours before we had to pack up and head home. I can remember many mornings when the Joralemon tube, the Lex Express, and the Pelham Express were tied up well past 6 am. That's why, IMO, those work trains are stacked on Fourth Avenue. Just tell the road trains that are scheduled as such to run " express on the local track" which was a simple procedure back in the day. As an aside to those who say store those trains and run them up the West End, or Culver Lines and wait to be slotted in I suggest the following. On a train that's being flagged to a work site, meaning someone standing up on a flat or crane car as the eyes and ears for the diesel operator, I will personally rent a pickup truck and pick a night with wind chills down near zero, and prop you standing up in the bed of said truck while I travel north on Ocean Parkway or McDonald Avenue at 10 or 15 mph while the elements rip you a new one. Just ignore the rain, sleet and wind while we creep toward Downtown Brooklyn on our way to Midtown. Remember to bring an extra set of clothes too. I can almost guarantee the sentiments I just posted is why many present day RTO people have stopped posting regularly. Seems to me that many posters have forgotten that there's a human element involved here too. Joking(?) comments about taking sick customers to a terminal to speed up service. I thought we were better than that. Just my thoughts. Carry on.

I really appreciate you posting these experiences, TM5. I think it's key to understand the operational side of things.

That said, I think we have an undeniable issue with work trains and work productivity in this city. I can't think of another system anywhere that stores such a large share of its trains in one yard, so frequently sees work trains crap out on the road, and begets so little productive time while causing so many delays as a result. Yes, we have yard space issues, but those are attenuable -- even just making better use of Linden and Jamaica (both of which host work sets today) would do worlds for service (provided that you give good AWS coverage from Linden-BWJ). I don't know enough about the ins and outs of this issue to put together some really fine pointed proposal, but again, we are unique in our incompetence here. 

On Fourth Ave: the issue with work train delays there isn't just speed, but also junction capacity. The tide of work trains hitting Dekalb stacks the express track, which is essentially why trains are running local these days -- you don't want (D)s and (N)s stuck behind that. The current setup increases (N) and (R) headways to 12 minutes (which is itself unacceptable) but it works, I guess. I think the larger issue at hand is that we are increasingly willing to hand over the railroad to unending maintenance without looking at ways to reform maintenance processes, which simply isn't a recipe for success in the long term -- the subway is for riders, after all. This is why I bring up evening out work set distributions, considering alternate routes, reforming actual practices to reduce the need for work sets, etc. 

***

An interesting international comparison on sick passenger incidents, for those who were discussing them:

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/person_ill_on_train

 

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Posted (edited)

Absolutely negative on the (J) to Bay Ridge as it’ll just make the line more unreliable. It already has long intervals to begin with. The last thing we need is it being even more delayed due to signal trouble, sick passengers, etc in South Brooklyn.

 

If you want to lesson crowding on the IRT, here’s what you do: Fix their signals and terminals to increase capacity.

Edited by S78 via Hylan

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26 minutes ago, S78 via Hylan said:

Absolutely negative on the (J) to Bay Ridge as it’ll just make the line more unreliable. It already has long intervals to begin with. The last thing we need is it being even more delayed due to signal trouble, sick passengers, etc in South Brooklyn.

 

If you want to lesson crowding on the IRT, here’s what you do: Fix their signals and terminals to increase capacity.

And do what about platform crowding and ridership disruption risk that results from load concentration? 

Forty, fifty years ago, we had more peak hour riders and generally more even ridership distribution across trunks. One of the many factors at play in the current state of affairs is that we’ve completely failed to distribute ridership during growth — corridors like Lex and 7th have been growing beyond capacity while we let CPW, Montague etc lie fallow. That’s just bad planning.

So yeah, the (J) will be more likely to be disrupted if it goes to South Brooklyn. But it would provide some service diversity. The focus should be on enabling routes like that to function — in your words, “fix their signals and terminals” — not sacrificing passenger convenience for operational expedience. 

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Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, RR503 said:

And do what about platform crowding and ridership disruption risk that results from load concentration? 

Forty, fifty years ago, we had more peak hour riders and generally more even ridership distribution across trunks. One of the many factors at play in the current state of affairs is that we’ve completely failed to distribute ridership during growth — corridors like Lex and 7th have been growing beyond capacity while we let CPW, Montague etc lie fallow. That’s just bad planning.

So yeah, the (J) will be more likely to be disrupted if it goes to South Brooklyn. But it would provide some service diversity. The focus should be on enabling routes like that to function — in your words, “fix their signals and terminals” — not sacrificing passenger convenience for operational expedience. 

Crowding will happen during the rush no matter what you do. Extending the (J) would not provide “service diversity” as you put. You’re just throwing another issue into the mix. 

I’m all for improving passenger service, but  not if it entails extending a line aimlessly. It didn’t work with the brown M and it won’t work with the (J).

Edited by S78 via Hylan

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