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SUBWAY - Random Thoughts Topic

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6 minutes ago, Lance said:

It's probably for the best that didn't happen. Port Authority would love for someone else (the MTA) to foot half the bill for PATH expenses seeing as that "railroad" costs much more per rider to operate than the subway. Not surprising since they never wanted to be the railroad business in the first place and only are because of the World Trade Center. I could quite easily see that happening should the MTA ever build a track connection to the PATH network. 

I mean, is that such a bad thing? MTA maybe has to overpay a little, but we get a good interstate subway. Seems like a win to me. 

I'd imagine that costs would have changed if the various operating waivers that would have been necessary for such an operation had been put in place, FWIW

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It kind of does matter when neither agency can manage their finances worth a damn. PATH, and the PA in general, hemorrhages money with their expenses and that FRA stipulation that the PA cannot get out of does not help matters in the slightest. For what it's worth, it'd be a really beneficial expansion with very little work involved, and that's not something I'm against. I just don't see the two agencies working together on this, nor do I see them playing fair with the costs of operation if such a combined route were to ever come to fruition.

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Was there a reason why the subway was never built into the outer suburbs?

DC's WMATA enters an entirely different state, so is the reason why we didnt do is because of money or something else?

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Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

Was there a reason why the subway was never built into the outer suburbs?

DC's WMATA enters an entirely different state, so is the reason why we didnt do is because of money or something else?

DC Metro is a hybrid of an commuter railroad and a subway, the NY Subway is just... a subway.

 

Can't really compare the two in terms areas covered.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by trainfan22
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3 hours ago, Lance said:

It kind of does matter when neither agency can manage their finances worth a damn. PATH, and the PA in general, hemorrhages money with their expenses and that FRA stipulation that the PA cannot get out of does not help matters in the slightest. For what it's worth, it'd be a really beneficial expansion with very little work involved, and that's not something I'm against. I just don't see the two agencies working together on this, nor do I see them playing fair with the costs of operation if such a combined route were to ever come to fruition.

FRA stipulations would probably have been removed for this; can't imagine NYCT retrofitting part of their fleet with all the trinkets that come with (partial) compliance.

The two certainly aren't paragons of fiscal responsibility, but again I think that we need to contextualize those failings in the potential benefit: is it really the end of the world if MTA is paying 20% more than they should for the combined service if NJ riders can get a one-seat ride from Newark to Grand Central? 

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I’ve noticed that the underpass at Dyckman Street (A) has been barricaded at both ends. If they end up sealing it, I won’t really miss it because of how absolutely FILTHY it is. It’s covered in roughly 30 years of piss, and its barely used. Also, the unused underpass 23rd Street has also been barricaded too. 

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4 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

Was there a reason why the subway was never built into the outer suburbs?

DC's WMATA enters an entirely different state, so is the reason why we didnt do is because of money or something else?

The problem is one of two things: who pays, and the stopping distance between stations.

  • New York and the counties pay for the subway with a unified set of taxes and fees. DC Metro's funding is split between each of three jurisdictions by formula and each jurisdiction comes up with the money independently. However, this also means that each jurisdiction has a veto on adding additional service since they all have to split the costs, which just happened.
  • New York's subway stops are approximately a half mile apart, because the subway is designed for pedestrians to walk to stations. DC Metro has much farther stop spacing, which means that in an hour it can reach a farther distance, but most people next to the line can't just walk up to a station. To put this in perspective, Shady Grove to Farragut North is roughly the same distance as Glen Cove to Times Square via 25A. The DC Metro makes that distance in 36 minutes, which is a little more than the time it takes for the (7) to get from Flushing to Main St, only a third of the distance.

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16 hours ago, subwayfan1998 said:

Exactly, NSF and Fulton St. Hub was a 9/11 Recovery Effort, Without 9/11 there would be No New South Ferry nor perhaps Fulton St. Hub, the SAS and Hudson Yards would still be built. NYC Subways would look the Same but except the South Ferry, Cortlandt St and Fulton St.

Even if I go by your own post here, the subway system wouldn't still look the same... lol...

I mean which is it? [The NYC subways would still look the same, but except the South Ferry, Cortlandt St and Fulton St], or [the SAS & Hudson Yards would still have been built]??

I suppose more diligent track cleaning (via Vaktrak, or whatever that contraption is called) & other efforts to appeal to transients & tourists beautify some of these stations since then, are irrelevant... The good housekeeping bug just bit the MTA out of nowhere.... They woke up & decided out of their own volition one day to start having some of the stations look more modernized :lol: Yeah, alright, if you say so......

The MTA has a knack for waiting for the last minute to do shit & is not voluntarily progressive at all.

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7 hours ago, Cabanamaner said:

I’ve noticed that the underpass at Dyckman Street (A) has been barricaded at both ends. If they end up sealing it, I won’t really miss it because of how absolutely FILTHY it is. It’s covered in roughly 30 years of piss, and its barely used. Also, the unused underpass 23rd Street has also been barricaded too. 

Since when has it been barricaded? Can you take pictures?

Thanks.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Cabanamaner said:

I’ve noticed that the underpass at Dyckman Street (A) has been barricaded at both ends. If they end up sealing it, I won’t really miss it because of how absolutely FILTHY it is. It’s covered in roughly 30 years of piss, and its barely used. Also, the unused underpass 23rd Street has also been barricaded too. 

Next stop: The underpass at 66 on the (1) (hopefully)

Edited by Bay Ridge Express

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8 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

New York's subway stops are approximately a half mile apart, because the subway is designed for pedestrians to walk to stations. DC Metro has much farther stop spacing, which means that in an hour it can reach a farther distance, but most people next to the line can't just walk up to a station. To put this in perspective, Shady Grove to Farragut North is roughly the same distance as Glen Cove to Times Square via 25A. The DC Metro makes that distance in 36 minutes, which is a little more than the time it takes for the (7) to get from Flushing to Main St, only a third of the distance.

So why not just give the stations greater stop spacing in the suburbs? They obviously won't be as needed anyway, since those communities would not be as populated. You can give each stop in central NYC about 1/2 mile spacing and everything else ~1 mile.

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Bay Ridge Express said:

Next stop: The underpass at 66 on the (1) (hopefully)

That one is useful.

Why should these be closed. I am opposed to closing these passageways. I support reopening ones that have been closed.

Edited by Union Tpke
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3 minutes ago, Union Tpke said:

That one is useful.

Why should these be closed. I am opposed to closing these passageways. I support reopening ones that have been closed.

Filthiness

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3 minutes ago, Bay Ridge Express said:

Filthiness

That should not be a reason to close useful passageways. If they are filthy, they should be cleaned, not closed.

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20 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

It's a pair of tracks leading to a pair of tracks. Today those pair of tracks end in an arbitrary fashion 2000 feet away from each other.

Presumably you would need to extend station lengths on the PATH to accommodate such a service but IIRC Parsons-Brinckerhoff considered it possible.

I think we might be talking about different plans. I thought there was an old proposal to connect the PATH at 9th Street to the (6) at Astor Place.

Connecting the WTC branch to the (6) at City Hall would make a lot more sense, but I'd still be concerned about the reliability of a Newark to Pelham Bay Park route that has to deal with interlining.

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1 hour ago, P3F said:

I think we might be talking about different plans. I thought there was an old proposal to connect the PATH at 9th Street to the (6) at Astor Place.

Connecting the WTC branch to the (6) at City Hall would make a lot more sense, but I'd still be concerned about the reliability of a Newark to Pelham Bay Park route that has to deal with interlining.

Yeah the Astor Place connection was planned when both PATH and the IRT were brand new. The WTC- (6) connection was specifically a plan that was vying for 9/11 funds.

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7 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Even if I go by your own post here, the subway system wouldn't still look the same... lol...

I mean which is it? [The NYC subways would still look the same, but except the South Ferry, Cortlandt St and Fulton St], or [the SAS & Hudson Yards would still have been built]??

I suppose more diligent track cleaning (via Vaktrak, or whatever that contraption is called) & other efforts to appeal to transients & tourists beautify some of these stations since then, are irrelevant... The good housekeeping bug just bit the MTA out of nowhere.... They woke up & decided out of their own volition one day to start having some of the stations look more modernized :lol: Yeah, alright, if you say so......

The MTA has a knack for waiting for the last minute to do shit & is not voluntarily progressive at all.

this is very irrelevant what you are saying, @bobtehpanda is Right, "SAS had the study initiated in the '90s. The "new" post 9/11 stuff was New South Ferry and Fulton St." Track Cleanings had Existed long before 9/11. also Hudson Yards Extension was built for the NYC Candidacy for 2012 Olympic Games but it didn't took place at all in NYC.

Without 9/11, SAS will still be built and it would be same like it is now, 95% of NYC subways would still look the same how it is now.

9/11 had only effect is Cortlandt St, South Ferry and Fulton St, Mostly Downtown Manhattan.

 

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Posted (edited)

So much waiting! What's up with the god damn holding lights at DeKalb Avenue? First the (Q) is held for 5 minutes, and then the (R) for another 5 minutes. 2 (D) trains have passed the station in that time. The (R) leaves now that the next (Q) has shown up.

Edited by CenSin

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, subwayfan1998 said:

this is very irrelevant what you are saying, @bobtehpanda is Right, "SAS had the study initiated in the '90s. The "new" post 9/11 stuff was New South Ferry and Fulton St." Track Cleanings had Existed long before 9/11. also Hudson Yards Extension was built for the NYC Candidacy for 2012 Olympic Games but it didn't took place at all in NYC.

Without 9/11, SAS will still be built and it would be same like it is now, 95% of NYC subways would still look the same how it is now.

9/11 had only effect is Cortlandt St, South Ferry and Fulton St, Mostly Downtown Manhattan.

Of course you're going to deem what I'm saying as irrelevant, as you're of the belief that the subway system would look more or less the same, had 9/11 never happened...

Of course track cleanings in general existed before 9/11, stop being obtuse.... The MTA started becoming exponentially more diligent with track cleaning well after 2001 & I'm of the belief that had 9/11 never happened, the MTA would have been in no real rush to try to clean up the tracks as well as they have, on top of being more diligent with trash collection (you may have been oblivious to them, but I most certainly remember overflowing damn garbage cans at certain stations), and on top of displaying as much artwork as you see laced along & about the subway system....

New South Ferry & Fulton st reconstruction were not the only changes the subway underwent since 2001 & on top of it, those SAS stations were obviously not completed before 9/11 (which was the point) & I wish you'd stop parroting that like it's some profound point... Furthermore, these past two replies of yours is predicated on something I never said.... In an implicative fashion, you asked "so without 9/11, there wouldn't be no "New" South Ferry and the New SAS Stations??" - when I was saying the exact opposite in my OP....

You can say that 9/11 only affected Cortlandt st., SF, and Fulton st, but to act like the necessary work that had to be done to get things back in working order in that part of Manhattan didn't spark the MTA to want to fix up (or beautify) any other stations about the subway system thereafter, AFAIC is to not think outside the box... Had 9/11 never happened (with the advent of the SAS stations, new SF, & Fulton st. rehabbing after the fact), 95% of the subway system still wouldn't look the same.... It ignores all the other changes that the subway system as a whole underwent since 2001 - but of course they're irrelevant, according to you.....

 

Edited by B35 via Church
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46 minutes ago, CenSin said:

So much waiting! What's up with the god damn holding lights at DeKalb Avenue? First the (Q) is held for 5 minutes, and then the (R) for another 5 minutes. 2 (D) trains have passed the station in that time. The (R) leaves now that the next (Q) has shown up.

Seems to be a combination of padding and GO congestion on southbound 4th. Stringline shows holds at Dekalb (which I'd imagine are padding related, at least in the (R)'s case) and at Atlantic (if I had to guess, trains crawling/sitting). 

Schedule (padding in black):

oiuRXTk.png

String:

HmYXnLj.png

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1 hour ago, RR503 said:

Seems to be a combination of padding and GO congestion on southbound 4th. Stringline shows holds at Dekalb (which I'd imagine are padding related, at least in the (R)'s case) and at Atlantic (if I had to guess, trains crawling/sitting). 

Schedule (padding in black):

oiuRXTk.png

String:

HmYXnLj.png

I guess that shows how much fat the MTA has to trim off their BS schedules. “Whoops! Looks like you’re saving time on this ride. We gotta fix that for you. Hold the train, conductor.”

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2 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Of course you're going to deem what I'm saying as irrelevant, as you're of the belief that the subway system would look more or less the same, had 9/11 never happened...

Of course track cleanings in general existed before 9/11, stop being obtuse.... The MTA started becoming exponentially more diligent with track cleaning well after 2001 & I'm of the belief that had 9/11 never happened, the MTA would have been in no real rush to try to clean up the tracks as well as they have, on top of being more diligent with trash collection (you may have been oblivious to them, but I most certainly remember overflowing damn garbage cans at certain stations), and on top of displaying as much artwork as you see laced along & about the subway system....

New South Ferry & Fulton st reconstruction were not the only changes the subway underwent since 2001 & on top of it, those SAS stations were obviously not completed before 9/11 (which was the point) & I wish you'd stop parroting that like it's some profound point... Furthermore, these past two replies of yours is predicated on something I never said.... In an implicative fashion, you asked "so without 9/11, there wouldn't be no "New" South Ferry and the New SAS Stations??" - when I was saying the exact opposite in my OP....

You can say that 9/11 only affected Cortlandt st., SF, and Fulton st, but to act like the necessary work that had to be done to get things back in working order in that part of Manhattan didn't spark the MTA to want to fix up (or beautify) any other stations about the subway system thereafter, AFAIC is to not think outside the box... Had 9/11 never happened (with the advent of the SAS stations, new SF, & Fulton st. rehabbing after the fact), 95% of the subway system still wouldn't look the same.... It ignores all the other changes that the subway system as a whole underwent since 2001 - but of course they're irrelevant, according to you.....

 

Go Look at Chambers St on the (J) and (Z) Line, i never been cleaning and it never was modernized until now it started.

there were stations that were being modernized and rehabbing before 9/11, I Know SAS was not completed before 9/11 but it was planned before 9/11.

Where is a Evidence of the changes that the subway system as a whole underwent since 2001? Dude, I Have nothing against you and I Respect your Opinion.

 

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, subwayfan1998 said:

Go Look at Chambers St on the (J) and (Z) Line, i never been cleaning and it never was modernized until now it started.

there were stations that were being modernized and rehabbing before 9/11, I Know SAS was not completed before 9/11 but it was planned before 9/11.

Where is a Evidence of the changes that the subway system as a whole underwent since 2001? Dude, I Have nothing against you and I Respect your Opinion.

Yeah, you say you have nothing against me, but you apparently have something against common sense..... Now that I've had this brief dialogue w/ you, now I really see why you catch the flack that you do on here.....

I know, I know.... There's no evidence that the subway system as a whole underwent changes in almost 18 years, cleanliness & aesthetics are "very irrelevant" (never mind the countdown clocks & things of that nature), and the exception swallows the rule (as if I said every station has been modernized)..... Got it.

Try to take people seriously & this is the result..... The buck stops here with you... Go troll somebody else; I wasted enough keystrokes with this exchange.

Edited by B35 via Church
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On 5/12/2019 at 8:03 AM, Union Tpke said:

Since when has it been barricaded? Can you take pictures?

Thanks.

Please disregard. Passed by last night, and the blue barricade walls have been removed. Apparently the underpass was closed temporarily to install some new railings for the staircases. Still filthy as ever, though. 

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12 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Yeah, you say you have nothing against me, but you apparently have something against common sense..... Now that I've had this brief dialogue w/ you, now I really see why you catch the flack that you do on here.....

I know, I know.... There's no evidence that the subway system as a whole underwent changes in almost 18 years, cleanliness & aesthetics are "very irrelevant" (never mind the countdown clocks & things of that nature), and the exception swallows the rule (as if I said every station has been modernized)..... Got it.

Try to take people seriously & this is the result..... The buck stops here with you... Go troll somebody else; I wasted enough keystrokes with this exchange.

How would New York City overall in general (Besides Subways) would have look like now, if 9/11 never happened?

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