SUBWAY - Random Thoughts Topic

[Lawrence St]

5 hours ago, Around the Horn said:

If a train isn't taking me where I'm going, I'm not taking it even if it's less crowded than the one I'm on.

Riders along Hillside would still have 6th Av service - just not from the but rather the .

This way, you can actually balance out the loads since the runs express and give Hillside riders 4 options to access Midtown as opposed to one.

[Lex]

48 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

Riders along Hillside would still have 6th Av service - just not from the but rather the .

This way, you can actually balance out the loads since the runs express and give Hillside riders 4 options to access Midtown as opposed to one.

How does it look with the existing ? If there are still plenty of people getting off that and taking the  at Roosevelt Avenue, there's no chance in hell that plan will work as you hope.

[Lawrence St]

2 minutes ago, Lex said:

How does it look with the existing ? If there are still plenty of people getting off that and taking the  at Roosevelt Avenue, there's no chance in hell that plan will work as you hope.

And why would they be taking the at Roosevelt when it makes the same stops in midtown?

[Union Tpke]

6 hours ago, RR503 said:

I have no idea what the theoretical capacity of 179 and 71 would be — there are so many data points you’d need to figure that out, and at any rate dealing with overlong dwells at 71 could get you a bump pretty quickly. 

Dunno if we need to go all the way to Queens Village, but a Hillside extension is certainly warranted. Having all of E Queens schlep to Jamaica for the subway is bad for riders and the agency’s operating budget. 

I would extend the line to Springfield Boulevard with across the platform bus transfers. I will detail my proposal when I have time.

[Lex]

1 hour ago, Lawrence St said:

And why would they be taking the at Roosevelt when it makes the same stops in midtown?

Consider the psychological effects of the "express/local" dichotomy, especially over longer distances...

Edited September 6, 2019 by Lex

[Lawrence St]

Just now, Lex said:

Consider the psychological effects of the "express/local" dichotomy...

Well, they have 5 transfer points along QBL;

Parsons Blvd

Briarwood

75th Av

Kew Gardens-Union Tpk

Forest Hills

Jackson Hts-Roosevelt Av.

From my experience riding the subway, a lot of passengers dont wait until the last possible transfer station to transfer.

[Lex]

52 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

From my experience riding the subway, a lot of passengers dont wait until the last possible transfer station to transfer.

That's reading into it a little too much, as the point I'm making is that people will attempt to transfer as soon as they have the opportunity.

(As an aside, I don't think you meant to say 75th Avenue, and Briarwood only applies to local trains.)

[NewFlyer 230]

1 hour ago, Lawrence St said:

Well, they have 5 transfer points along QBL;

Parsons Blvd

Briarwood

75th Av

Kew Gardens-Union Tpk

Forest Hills

Jackson Hts-Roosevelt Av.

From my experience riding the subway, a lot of passengers dont wait until the last possible transfer station to transfer.

The thing is there are lots of people who board between 71 Ave and Roosevelt Ave so there will always be a lot of people who transfer at Roosevelt anyways. People will switch to the express regardless even if it doesn’t save them much time. Yeah the  and  serve the same stations in Midtown but average person does not care. The  is known as the express and to the average person that means that they should always reach their destination quicker. You and I know it’s not necessarily always the case but we have more knowledge about the subway system than the average person does anyways. So we know that riding the  will only take us a few minutes longer with the strong likelihood of there being a seat available. 

[Lawrence St]

10 minutes ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

The thing is there are lots of people who board between 71 Ave and Roosevelt Ave so there will always be a lot of people who transfer at Roosevelt anyways. People will switch to the express regardless even if it doesn’t save them much time. Yeah the  and  serve the same stations in Midtown but average person does not care. The  is known as the express and to the average person that means that they should always reach their destination quicker. You and I know it’s not necessarily always the case but we have more knowledge about the subway system than the average person does anyways. So we know that riding the  will only take us a few minutes longer with the strong likelihood of there being a seat available. 

I never understood why they connected the 63rd St tunnel to 36th St instead of Queens Plaza, so that way Jackson Hts isnt as crowded as it is now.

[JeremiahC99]

14 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

I never understood why they connected the 63rd St tunnel to 36th St instead of Queens Plaza, so that way Jackson Hts isnt as crowded as it is now.

The way 63rd Street is positioned would make it impossible to connect to Queens Plaza. Not to mention that the line was designed with the Queens Bypass along the LIRR in mind.

A better idea would be to convert Woodhaven Blvd to an express station, since that station has provisions to become one. Not only would this relieve crowding at Roosevelt Avenue, but would allow for the transfers to the Q88 bus, and to the Q52 and Q53 SBS bus lines along Woodhaven Blvd and also encourage Q53 passengers to take the express there instead of causing crowding at Roosevelt Avenue and on the  at Woodside-61st Street.

8 hours ago, RR503 said:

I have no idea what the theoretical capacity of 179 and 71 would be — there are so many data points you’d need to figure that out, and at any rate dealing with overlong dwells at 71 could get you a bump pretty quickly. 

Dunno if we need to go all the way to Queens Village, but a Hillside extension is certainly warranted. Having all of E Queens schlep to Jamaica for the subway is bad for riders and the agency’s operating budget. 

A extension of Queens Blvd service to Queens Village would do wonders to improving access to the subway. I am also considering an extension of the Jamaica Avenue lines to Hollis as well as was originally planned, and an extension of the Archer Avenue Upper Level along the LIRR Atlantic ROW to Southeastern Queens, much like what the original Program for Action was to accomplished. However, while the original line had the line end at Springfield Blvd in Laurelton, my plan take the line further to Rosedale at Francis Lewis Blvd (where the Q5 Bus terminates).

It is of also note that Hillside is also served by a variety of buses (Q1, Q36, Q43, as well as portions of the Q2, Q3, Q17, Q76, and Q77), the Jamaica Avenue extension is also served by the Q110 and portions of the Q42 and Q83, and the SE Queens Line to Rosedale is also parallel to the Q5 and Q85 on Merrick Blvd, as well as the Q4 and Q84 for a portion of the route. With theses three extensions, not only would Subway  service be more efficient and more people would access it, but this would take some load off the buses in SE Queens, since passenger volumes is expected to be redistributed from 169th Street, Jamaica-179th Street, and Jamaica Center to many of the new stations on the new lines. Therefore, some bus service would most likely be rerouted from serving Jamaica to locations along the three extensions, contingent on community approval. However, since I am planning to integrate bus service into my subway plans, the key corridors (Hillside Avenue, Jamaica Avenue, Merrick Blvd) will still have bus service.

All of this is part of my Subway improvement grand master plan (to be uploaded when I have the time).

[Lawrence St]

2 minutes ago, JeremiahC99 said:

The way 63rd Street is positioned would make it impossible to connect to Queens Plaza. Not to mention that the line was designed with the Queens Bypass along the LIRR in mind.

A better idea would be to convert Woodhaven Blvd to an express station, since that station has provisions to become one. Not only would this relieve crowding at Roosevelt Avenue, but would allow for the transfers to the Q88 bus, and to the Q52 and Q53 SBS bus lines along Woodhaven Blvd and also encourage Q53 passengers to take the express there instead of causing crowding at Roosevelt Avenue and on the  at Woodside-61st Street.

That would require an extensive closure of the Queens Blvd Line as the track ways and platforms have to be reconfigured.

[Union Tpke]

1 hour ago, Lawrence St said:

Well, they have 5 transfer points along QBL;

Parsons Blvd

Briarwood

75th Av

Kew Gardens-Union Tpk

Forest Hills

Jackson Hts-Roosevelt Av.

From my experience riding the subway, a lot of passengers dont wait until the last possible transfer station to transfer.

Riders to/from the  from JC, and riders to/from 179 on the  almost exclusively transfer at my home station at Union Turnpike. In the morning, they switch at KG so that there is a chance of a seat for the long way into Manhattan. On the way back they wait until KG, because, they presumably got a seat on their train, and they might get another one on the train they switch to. Transfers in the AM are light, but are VERY HEAVY in the PM, so much so, that sometimes  trains sometimes hold at KG for the connection if the  is barreling into the station on the express track. Do not underestimate the convenience of the across-the-platform transfer at Kew Gardens.

 

38 minutes ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

The thing is there are lots of people who board between 71 Ave and Roosevelt Ave so there will always be a lot of people who transfer at Roosevelt anyways. People will switch to the express regardless even if it doesn’t save them much time. Yeah the  and  serve the same stations in Midtown but average person does not care. The  is known as the express and to the average person that means that they should always reach their destination quicker. You and I know it’s not necessarily always the case but we have more knowledge about the subway system than the average person does anyways. So we know that riding the  will only take us a few minutes longer with the strong likelihood of there being a seat available. 

In 2002, the MTA had a campaign advising riders to use the  instead of the , noting that it took only five minutes longer and had seats. They printed brochures, which I have, and had conductors tell this to riders. It was not a success. Many riders, including myself, would rather save those five minutes than have a seat. The  is less attractive because it is 480 feet long.

 

27 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

I never understood why they connected the 63rd St tunnel to 36th St instead of Queens Plaza, so that way Jackson Hts isnt as crowded as it is now.

The tunnel was intended for the Queens Bypass line, and was supposed to have a station at Northern Boulevard with a transfer to Queens Plaza. In 1989, the line was completed to Queensbridge, with the tunnels to 29th Street. How was this supposed to hook up with Queens Plaza. There would have been one sharp curve. They ended up doing the cheapest option to increase capacity and built the 63rd Street Connector.

6 minutes ago, JeremiahC99 said:

The way 63rd Street is positioned would make it impossible to connect to Queens Plaza. Not to mention that the line was designed with the Queens Bypass along the LIRR in mind.

A better idea would be to convert Woodhaven Blvd to an express station, since that station has provisions to become one. Not only would this relieve crowding at Roosevelt Avenue, but would allow for the transfers to the Q88 bus, and to the Q52 and Q53 SBS bus lines along Woodhaven Blvd and also encourage Q53 passengers to take the express there instead of causing crowding at Roosevelt Avenue and on the  at Woodside-61st Street.

A extension of Queens Blvd service to Queens Village would do wonders to improving access to the subway. I am also considering an extension of the Jamaica Avenue lines to Hollis as well as was originally planned, and an extension of the Archer Avenue Upper Level along the LIRR Atlantic ROW to Southeastern Queens, much like what the original Program for Action was to accomplished. However, while the original line had the line end at Springfield Blvd in Laurelton, my plan take the line further to Rosedale at Francis Lewis Blvd (where the Q5 Bus terminates).

It is of also note that Hillside is also served by a variety of buses (Q1, Q36, Q43, as well as portions of the Q2, Q3, Q17, Q76, and Q77), the Jamaica Avenue extension is also served by the Q110 and portions of the Q42 and Q83, and the SE Queens Line to Rosedale is also parallel to the Q5 and Q85 on Merrick Blvd, as well as the Q4 and Q84 for a portion of the route. With theses three extensions, not only would Subway  service be more efficient and more people would access it, but this would take some load off the buses in SE Queens, since passenger volumes is expected to be redistributed from 169th Street, Jamaica-179th Street, and Jamaica Center to many of the new stations on the new lines. Therefore, some bus service would most likely be rerouted from serving Jamaica to locations along the three extensions, contingent on community approval. However, since I am planning to integrate bus service into my subway plans, the key corridors (Hillside Avenue, Jamaica Avenue, Merrick Blvd) will still have bus service.

All of this is part of my Subway improvement grand master plan (to be uploaded when I have the time).

On your second point, I have been very hesitant to add an express stop there. I am very biased as a beneficiary of the Queens Boulevard Express, and trains fly through there. I do not want my speed to be eliminated, and do not want travel times on the Queens Express to go down. It would warrant a study.

Bingo on the third point. This would allow rationalization of the bus network. Bus routes would be shorter, could avoid the traffic of Downtown Jamaica, could be rerouted into a grid, and would cost less to operate.

[Lawrence St]

@Union Tpke Regarding your point, I don't see why cant add a few short turn 's to 2nd Av and use sets during rush hour. Is the capacity not there?

[JeremiahC99]

13 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

That would require an extensive closure of the Queens Blvd Line as the track ways and platforms have to be reconfigured.

They have provisions for such a conversion, and it has been proposed and requested since the station opened. However, you are right that the line and station may need to be closed for such a while. However, most of the track works would be done on weekends, with trains running express through the area, one track at a time. To replace service to Woodhaven Blvd during station shutdown, I am also proposing increasing bus service on the Q60 between 71st Avenue and the 46th Street station on the .

However, the conversion would have a benefit of reducing crowding at Roosevelt and introducing new transfer opportunities to the Q88 bus, which serves the Program for Action-era Long Island Expressway Line. The LIE line was intended to provide better access to Manhattan from Kissena Blvd, but like most of the plan, it was scraped. I am not incorporating the LIE line into my plan due to possible constraints on the QBL, the lack of available letters and bullets on the forums for such a service, and the opening of an opportunity to improve the Q88 bus line.

Similar benefits were available when the 59th Street stop on the Lexington Avenue Line was also converted to an express station. When that occurred, express riders now had a direct transfer opportunity to the BMT Broadway Line. Plus they had another transfer opportunity between local and express trains on the Lex. Despite this, I personally never use that transfer, instead transferring between local and express at Grand Central. Travel time impacts on the  were minimal.

Regardless of the benefits, the analysis of such a conversion would have to be done.

21 minutes ago, Union Tpke said:

Bingo on the third point. This would allow rationalization of the bus network. Bus routes would be shorter, could avoid the traffic of Downtown Jamaica, could be rerouted into a grid, and would cost less to operate.

While a grid network would be nice as well, since it would connect areas outside of the downtowns without having to go through them, I wouldn’t go overzealous on straightening out the routes just yet. There might be times where a turn is needed to access a certain place. However, like I said, major corridors would still have access anyway.

I am also contemplating adding an extension of the Flushing Line to my master plan to bring the same efficiency of buses to NE Queens, though unlike the SE Queens extensions, the Flushing extension alignment is unclear. I don’t know what route I should have on there. One one hand, I am considering extending it to Little Neck via Northern Blvd, competing with the Q12. On another hand, I am also considering an extension to Whitestone via Parsons Blvd, where it would connect to buses going to College Point. This would parallel the Q20A/B and Q44 SBS, a popular bus line people use to get between Queens and the Bronx. What alignment should I use?

[Jemorie]

9 hours ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

There has been several times where I’ve boarded the  at Broadway Junction and rode all the way into Manhattan and was not passed by an  .

Oh please. What if the  is scheduled to come every 10 minutes (at certain times of the off-peak hours) like the  itself does all day and evening long?

For example, off the top of my head, going northbound, a Manhattan-bound  and  can both make a connection with one another at Broadway Junction. By the time the  gets to Hoyt, the  is only 4 minutes behind. The next  will not pass your  until 2 minutes later after your local gets to 168th Street.

Going southbound, a  can scoot along to Canal, Chambers, Fulton, High, Jay, and Hoyt, followed by an  immediately right behind it, which will then pass your local at Clinton-Washington or Franklin. This means that if you are already on the local even before it reaches Canal, you won't get passed by the express because the express probably left 168th Street 2 minutes before the local departed. It then catches up to another local at Canal, but by then , the local would already be ahead of the express. The following express won't show up until like about 5-7 minutes after your first local (if you board it at Canal or anywhere else below) gets to Euclid Avenue.

Edited September 6, 2019 by Jemorie

[Around the Horn]

2 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

@Union Tpke Regarding your point, I don't see why cant add a few short turn 's to 2nd Av and use sets during rush hour. Is the capacity not there?

Well very simply let's say some incident messes up train service and the next Manhattan bound  departure is scheduled to go to Metropolitan Av but the next  in the relay is a 10 car set meant for 2nd Av...

That's a problem.

[Lawrence St]

5 minutes ago, Around the Horn said:

Well very simply let's say some incident messes up train service and the next Manhattan bound  departure is scheduled to go to Metropolitan Av but the next  in the relay is a 10 car set meant for 2nd Av...

That's a problem.

Simple, send it to Essex St or Church Av in order to maintain the connection to Nassau. 

Anything happens along the line, reroute the 10 car from 2nd Av.

[Abba]

On 9/5/2019 at 12:19 PM, Jemorie said:

 

Since this is social media, I’m not just gonna take your word for it. Southbound, the  has to switch twice; first, to the local track and then the Nostrand Avenue Line. Northbound, it has to switch from the Nostrand Avenue Line, to the local track, and then the express track. This easily causes delays to all other trains behind. It also depends on their printed schedules too.

As for as Utica, far too many times I’ve been on  trains that were backed as far as Nostrand Avenue on the express track and ended up missing the  train that passed you by. AM Rush, PM Rush, evenings after 8 p.m. to around 9:30-ish. I learned the hard way to get off the  or  I’m on whenever I see the  coming at the same time across the platform as early as Nevins and sometimes even Franklin as well or if it is only a minute or two at either station. 

The   and  often take a good 12-15 minute tops instead of 6 minutes to get from Atlantic to Franklin southbound while the  and  stop dead multiple times from Atlantic to Franklin. Northbound is okay somewhat, however.

Looking at the printed schedules, the  is every 4 minutes peak and every 8 minutes off-peak. But I hardly see any improvements at Utica nine times out of ten and the relay always has issues handling a train every 4 minutes. Sometimes, there could be two to three  ‘s at the relay scheduled to come out and re-enter service on the lower level at a certain time. You never know.

Yesterday I  got off at Kingston and yes there was congestion again! However there was an earlier incident Manhattan bound. So maybe this delayed the Utica ave bound trains? I don’t know . I think if service is normal in general then the waits before Utica are less. 

Edited September 6, 2019 by Abba

[Jemorie]

14 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

@Union Tpke Regarding your point, I don't see why cant add a few short turn 's to 2nd Av and use sets during rush hour. Is the capacity not there?

....? 

That means they would reduce the amount of trainsets on the  for that purpose and the  is not going to pay to run empty trains leaving 2nd Avenue-Lower East Side northbound on those few short turn  trains...

[Around the Horn]

39 minutes ago, Jemorie said:

 the  is not going to pay to run empty trains leaving 2nd Avenue-Lower East Side northbound on those few short turn  trains...

I don't quite understand this. Those trains would get full rather quickly right at the next stop and all the way up 6th Avenue and would help out the packed and trains coming from Brooklyn and they would also help people who currently have to let crowded trains go at 2nd before they can squeeze on one.

If the additional capacity on 6th, 53rd and QBL is there for say 3 or 4 trips per hour strategically scheduled around the most packed trains coming from Brooklyn during the peaks of the peak, why not do it?  They did it before during the Myrtle Viaduct repairs.

I'm not against the concept of additional short turn trains; they should just be 8 cars not 10.

[Jemorie]

5 minutes ago, Around the Horn said:

I don't quite understand this. Those trains would get full rather quickly right at the next stop and all the way up 6th Avenue and would help out the packed and trains coming from Brooklyn and they would also help people who currently have to let crowded trains go at 2nd before they can squeeze on one.

If the additional capacity on 6th, 53rd and QBL is there for say 3 or 4 trips per hour strategically scheduled around the most packed trains coming from Brooklyn during the peaks of the peak, why not do it?  They did it before during the Myrtle Viaduct repairs.

I'm not against the concept of additional short turn trains; they should just be 8 cars not 10.

How you don't understand where I'm coming from...don't trains already become lightly loaded after they scoot along through the CBDs in the peak direction (AM Rush)...more people get off than get on while at the city in the peak direction with a few exceptions such as Jay Street-MetroTech and Hoyt Street on the  northbound during the peak direction periods...

And those short turn  trains during the Myrtle Avenue Reconstruction Project was because of lack of capacity at Broadway Junction anyway.

Edited September 7, 2019 by Jemorie

[Around the Horn]

I take you don't use 6th Avenue in the morning...

and trains are often crush loaded and frequently passengers transferring from other lines in Manhattan trying to get an or to Midtown (either up from West 4th and Broadway-Lafayette or down from Lex, Bryant Park and Herald Sq) have to let one or more trains go before they can get on. An additional "empty" train either from or to 2nd Av would help spread out the crowds and provide more capacity on Queens Blvd, 53rd Street and 6th Avenue which are all very crowded corridors in the peak.

Even if trains "become lightly loaded after they scoot along through the CBDs in the peak direction", the whole point is providing additional service in the core, and if the Willamsburg Bridge and Myrtle Avenue merge weren't major limits on train throughput, you could just run the 3 or 4 trains per hour all the way out to Middle Village anyway.

[Lawrence St]

20 minutes ago, Around the Horn said:

I take you don't use 6th Avenue in the morning...

and trains are often crush loaded and frequently passengers transferring from other lines in Manhattan trying to get an or to Midtown (either up from West 4th and Broadway-Lafayette or down from Lex, Bryant Park and Herald Sq) have to let one or more trains go before they can get on. An additional "empty" train either from or to 2nd Av would help spread out the crowds and provide more capacity on Queens Blvd, 53rd Street and 6th Avenue which are all very crowded corridors in the peak.

Even if trains "become lightly loaded after they scoot along through the CBDs in the peak direction", the whole point is providing additional service in the core, and if the Willamsburg Bridge and Myrtle Avenue merge weren't major limits on train throughput, you could just run the 3 or 4 trains per hour all the way out to Middle Village anyway.

Glad I'm not the only one who thinks that.

I think that adding some more 8 car sets as an shuttle between Forest Hills-71st Av and 2nd Av could greatly benefit QBL.

[Jemorie]

12 minutes ago, Around the Horn said:

I take you don't use 6th Avenue in the morning...

and trains are often crush loaded and frequently passengers transferring from other lines in Manhattan trying to get an or to Midtown (either up from West 4th and Broadway-Lafayette or down from Lex, Bryant Park and Herald Sq) have to let one or more trains go before they can get on. An additional "empty" train either from or to 2nd Av would help spread out the crowds and provide more capacity on Queens Blvd, 53rd Street and 6th Avenue which are all very crowded corridors in the peak.

Even if trains "become lightly loaded after they scoot along through the CBDs in the peak direction", the whole point is providing additional service in the core, and if the Willamsburg Bridge and Myrtle Avenue merge weren't major limits on train throughput, you could just run the 3 or 4 trains per hour all the way out to Middle Village anyway.

3 or 4 trains an hour to Middle Village in the AM while the rest of the trains drop out at 2nd Avenue?! Don't make me laugh. Do you know that your "3 or 4 trains an hour" proposal is mathematically a train every 15-20 minutes tops? This is not the 's Lefferts Blvd and Rockaway sub-branches. And the WillyB can handle 24 tph.

I highly doubt everyone from the Brooklyn portions of the  and  are riding them all the way to points north along the Queens Blvd Line. The Queens Blvd Line and the 53rd Street in the reverse peak direction (once the  and  come off 6th Ave in the morning) sure as hell are not "crowded" at all whatsoever and yes I've ridden them on occasions.

 

[Jemorie]

4 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

I think that adding some more 8 car sets as an shuttle between Forest Hills-71st Av and 2nd Av could greatly benefit QBL.

That's a pretty dumb idea tbh. The Queens Blvd Line cannot handle any more extra  trains combined with the  on the local track.