SUBWAY - Random Thoughts Topic

[Union Tpke]

Screen Shot 2020-02-21 at 3.36.44 PM by Union Turnpike, on Flickr

 

Screen Shot 2020-02-21 at 3.37.00 PM by Union Turnpike, on Flickr

 

Screen Shot 2020-02-21 at 3.38.34 PM by Union Turnpike, on Flickr

[darkstar8983]

1 hour ago, Union Tpke said:

Screen Shot 2020-02-21 at 3.36.44 PM by Union Turnpike, on Flickr

 

Screen Shot 2020-02-21 at 3.37.00 PM by Union Turnpike, on Flickr

 

Screen Shot 2020-02-21 at 3.38.34 PM by Union Turnpike, on Flickr

See! What did I tell you?!

this swap has caused the  to again have the worst service! It hasn’t been this bad since prior to the R160s being delivered. Yes, signals and tracks have been getting some heavy duty maintenance, but look at OTP...virtually every route did better except the  who got the subway car downgrade of the century.

expect the next months OTP on these routes to go down to the 50%s and 40%s while everyone else does better

Edited February 21, 2020 by darkstar8983

[Lex]

50 minutes ago, darkstar8983 said:

See! What did I tell you?!

this swap has caused the  to again have the worst service! It hasn’t been this bad since prior to the R160s being delivered. Yes, signals and tracks have been getting some heavy duty maintenance, but look at OTP...virtually every route did better except the  who got the subway car downgrade of the century.

expect the next months OTP on these routes to go down to the 50%s and 40%s while everyone else does better

Your "point" is not proven.

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

1 hour ago, darkstar8983 said:

See! What did I tell you?!

this swap has caused the  to again have the worst service! It hasn’t been this bad since prior to the R160s being delivered. Yes, signals and tracks have been getting some heavy duty maintenance, but look at OTP...virtually every route did better except the  who got the subway car downgrade of the century.

expect the next months OTP on these routes to go down to the 50%s and 40%s while everyone else does better

OTP on the  and  went up from January 2019 to January 2020. Read it again.

[KK 6 Ave Local]

1 hour ago, darkstar8983 said:

See! What did I tell you?!

this swap has caused the  to again have the worst service! It hasn’t been this bad since prior to the R160s being delivered. Yes, signals and tracks have been getting some heavy duty maintenance, but look at OTP...virtually every route did better except the  who got the subway car downgrade of the century.

expect the next months OTP on these routes to go down to the 50%s and 40%s while everyone else does better

But the OTP went up? They put 2020 before 2019, which is why you interpreted it wrong.

[darkstar8983]

1 hour ago, KK 6 Ave Local said:

But the OTP went up? They put 2020 before 2019, which is why you interpreted it wrong.

I did not interpret it wrong. Despite the numbers going up, the  had the smallest increase and ended up with the lowest score. That’s my main point, and lines that share tracks with the  did significantly better. I’m just saying the  will go down from here with the recent downgrade

[Jemorie]

1 hour ago, darkstar8983 said:

I did not interpret it wrong. Despite the numbers going up, the  had the smallest increase and ended up with the lowest score. That’s my main point, and lines that share tracks with the  did significantly better. I’m just saying the  will go down from here with the recent downgrade

Don't worry, dude. The  will get better over time, not just with younger cars though. Just hope for the best in general.

Forget about those R46s.

@Lex, yes his point, not "point" as you call it, is in fact proven. The  has the lowest score of all B Division lines. Re-read the chart.

Edited February 22, 2020 by Jemorie

[trainfan22]

R32 MDBF should go up a bit assuming they retired the worst performing cars and the best running ones are the ones still in service. I like them but I want them to retire sooner rather later, if the 32s retire then the lowest MDBF cars would be the 46s at around 63,000 miles. That would be great milestone if the worst performing car is doing 63,000 miles which is pretty close to the much newer R68 MDBF.

 

[Jemorie]

3 hours ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

OTP on the  and  went up from January 2019 to January 2020. Read it again.

Sorry but +1.0 is hardly an improvement...service is still the same as last year (January 2019)...meanwhile, the  is the best performing Broadway Line, followed by the , a line that has long been panned by both rail buffs and riders alike for years on end...ironic isn't it?

It's a shame how some people still continue to think @darkstar8983 is bullshitting around when he's not really entirely in the wrong...the  has been a sad sap since 2016 when they started station renovations along the Sea Beach Line and then the Astoria Line. However, like I said before, it is not just the R46s. Now I'm not a daily  rider, but the fewer times I've written it (prior to this swap which I agree is a pretty dumb type of car assignment I've ever seen), it is horrible on 4th Avenue. First it comes and leaves together with the  local at the same time at 59th Street, only to get held near 36th Street to let the  go first. Sometimes, it passes the  at 9th Street (if the  ahead and the signals are good enough), already gone at most a minute or two before the  arrives at Atlantic. Some other times, if the  ahead and the signals aren't quick enough depending on dwells at Atlantic, the  will go extremely slow to the point the  ends up catching up to it at Atlantic, let alone leaving Atlantic on its way to DeKalb before the  express is fully platformed at Atlantic. The timers along the 4th Avenue Express run and the crappy track geometry between Atlantic and the bridge do not make it any better either. I also remember reading some of @CenSin's both older and recent posts about his or her experiences with the . The constant holding at 59th Street. Like why? Is the train leaving Coney Island ahead of schedule or what?

The Astoria and Sea Beach lines may have been completely rehabbed in terms of stations, but piss-poor dispatching and overall operations on the  are still lacking in comparison to some other lines. And don't get me started on the merge at 34th Street and the  running so closely together in both directions between TSQ and the 60th Street tubes. I'm 100% positive those who ride the  regularly (not just for railfanning purposes) have pointed this all out to the  by email or some shit, and yet the agency continues failing to address this problem, partially due to bad management and bad transit planning, with the typical excuse "we're always broke until we get more money". The  only monitors service on any line when the agency feels like it, while also spending money wastefully on stuff that aren't even broken like all those updated NTT announcements we saw over the 2010s.... Here's a clear example...remember that bootlegged  review back in December 2015? It was complete trash. They were more operationally focused than of anything else plaguing the two lines. And the R32s should have always been exclusive to the  until retirement, instead of all those swapping back and fourth throughout the 2010s. The reviews of the  were the only ones saving some actual grace. They lead to improvements, although improvements were already pending at the time on the former two lines.

A handful of rail buffs I know really love this current swap simply because they wanted to see R46s on the , a line they have not ran on in a long time till now, yet before, they were bitching and crying non-stop when they are (or were) on the  and . Hypocrites.

Edited February 22, 2020 by Jemorie

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

2 minutes ago, Jemorie said:

Sorry but +1.0 is hardly an improvement...service is still the same as last year (January 2019)...meanwhile, the  is the best performing Broadway Line, followed by the , a line that has long been panned by both rail buffs and riders alike for years on end...

It's a shame how some people still continue to think @darkstar8983 is bullshitting around when he's not really entirely in the wrong...the  has been a sad sap since 2016 when they started station renovations along the Sea Beach Line and then the Astoria Line. However, like I said before, it is not just the R46s. Now I'm not a daily  rider, but the fewer times I've written it (prior to this swap which I agree is a pretty dumb type of car assignment I've ever seen), it is horrible on 4th Avenue. First it comes and leaves together with the  local at the same time at 59th Street, only to get held near 36th Street to let the  go first. Sometimes, it passes the  at 9th Street (if the  ahead and the signals are good enough), already gone at most a minute or two before the  arrives at Atlantic. Some other times, if the  ahead and the signals aren't quick enough depending on dwells at Atlantic, the  will go extremely slow to the point the  ends up catching up to it at Atlantic, let alone leaving Atlantic on its way to DeKalb before the  express is fully platformed at Atlantic. The timers along the 4th Avenue Express run and the crappy track geometry between Atlantic and the bridge do not make it any better either. I also remember reading some of @CenSin's both older and recent posts about his or her experiences with the . The constant holding at 59th Street. Like why? Is the train leaving Coney Island ahead of schedule or what?

The Astoria and Sea Beach lines may have been completely rehabbed in terms of stations, but piss-poor dispatching and overall operations on the  are still lacking in comparison to some other lines. And don't get me started on the merge at 34th Street and the  running so closely together in both directions between TSQ and the 60th Street tubes. I'm 100% positive those who ride the  regularly (not just for railfanning purposes) have pointed this all out to the  by email or some shit, and yet the agency continues failing to address this problem, partially due to bad management and bad transit planning, with the typical excuse "we're always broke until we get more money". The  only monitors service on any line when the agency feels like it, while also spending money wastefully on stuff that aren't even broken like all those updated NTT announcements.... Another thing is (unrelated), remember that bootlegged  review back in December 2015? It was complete trash. They were more operationally focused than of anything else plaguing the two lines. And the R32s should have always been exclusive to the  until retirement, instead of all those swapping back and fourth throughout the 2010s. The reviews of the  were the only ones saving some actual grace. They lead to improvements, although improvements were already pending at the time on the former two lines.

A handful of rail buffs I know really love this current swap simply because they wanted to see R46s on the , a line they have not ran on in a long time till now, yet before, they were bitching and crying non-stop when they are (or were) on the  and . Hypocrites.

You don't have to believe it's an major improvement, but that still does not address the "worst service again". The all had OTPs worse than the and . Many of them were using NTTs (or strictly NTTs) during that time period. 

If you think that paying Ubers and waiting for train sets that are not R46s, wasting time and money is a rational way of thinking, then I have a bridge to sell to you. You can have your resentments about the R46, but they certainly do not merit such exaggerating measures.

The R46s on the and happened rather recently, and even when they showed up, it was a few sets only until later on. If after one year, the line's weekday OTP increased by 0.7%, running mainly R160s (along with R68s and R46s) then perhaps you should look at why that's the case.

Look no further to what you stated in your post. Yes, dispatching is an issue on that line, and remains so. An I was on was held at 36th Street for several minutes (R68). So it doesn't matter what car type it is, they're still gonna be late because of operational policies. 

 

[Jemorie]

17 minutes ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

If you think that paying Ubers and waiting for train sets that are not R46s, wasting time and money is a rational way of thinking, then I have a bridge to sell to you. You can have your resentments about the R46, but they certainly do not merit such exaggerating measures.

The R46s on the and happened rather recently, and even when they showed up, it was a few sets only until later on. If after one year, the line's weekday OTP increased by 0.7%, running mainly R160s (along with R68s and R46s) then perhaps you should look at why that's the case.

Look no further to what you stated in your post. Yes, dispatching is an issue on that line, and remains so. An I was on was held at 36th Street for several minutes (R68). So it doesn't matter what car type it is, they're still gonna be late because of operational policies.

1) Dude, I don't know what you're talking about. That statement is more true towards @darkstar8983 than to me anyway. And my post was not solely about the R46s making the  look bad. Even if I happen to live/work/go to school along the line on a daily basis, I would in no way, shape or form even considered doing such nonsense. I live along the  and deal with the R46s regularly on my commute anyway so I'm already used to them even if I don't like them.

2 and 3) You have a point so I maybe should have been alot more clearer in my post. But again, in general, the  is already bad enough as it is long before this swap occurred. That was the main point of my post. But overall you're right. And the constant work (flagging) under train traffic during off-peaks is another issue too. Perhaps this is why the  often gets held alot along 4th Avenue in Brooklyn? I don't know.

Edited February 22, 2020 by Jemorie

[Lex]

1 hour ago, Jemorie said:

Don't worry, dude. The  will get better over time, not just with younger cars though. Just hope for the best in general.

Forget about those R46s.

@Lex, yes his point, not "point" as you call it, is in fact proven. The  has the lowest score of all B Division lines. Re-read the chart.

Then please point to proof that the  having the lowest score is because of the swap.

I guarantee you that it doesn't exist.

[P3F]

2 minutes ago, Lex said:

Then please point to proof that the  having the lowest score is because of the swap.

I guarantee you that it doesn't exist.

Exactly. To me it looks like the  and reliability was awful even when they were >80% R160s. So unless the swap seems to correlate with significantly worse results, it isn't really anything to focus on.

Edited February 22, 2020 by P3F

[Jemorie]

31 minutes ago, Lex said:

Then please point to proof that the  having the lowest score is because of the swap.

I guarantee you that it doesn't exist.

 

29 minutes ago, P3F said:

Exactly. To me it looks like the  and reliability was awful even when they were >80% R160s. So unless the swap seems to correlate with significantly worse results, it isn't really anything to focus on.

If you guys had read my responses to @BM5 via Woodhaven, you would see that I've acknowledge that the  was always worse even before this swap thing occurred. But I'll admit I was sorta too quick to agree with @darkstar8983 though.

I'll admit. That's my fault.

Edited February 22, 2020 by Jemorie

[Calvin]

Kings Hwy, today at 2:30 PM omw to a photo event. Got on the  that was a R46 and the  that was a R68A arrived at the same time as the Q making the connection. Getting on the B, the C/R on the B surprisingly asked (with humor) the Q C/R "Is this really the Q or that the R went on the wrong way?"

*Even passengers at Kings Hwy asked the Q c/r if this was the Q train? Middle signs say N but some signs are blank with K.

 

Edited February 22, 2020 by Calvin

[Tonyboy515]

22 minutes ago, Calvin said:

Kings Hwy, today at 2:30 PM omw to a photo event. Got on the  that was a R46 and the  that was a R68A arrived at the same time as the Q making the connection. Getting on the B, the C/R on the B surprisingly asked (with humor) the Q C/R "Is this really the Q or that the R went on the wrong way?"

*Even passengers at Kings Hwy asked the Q c/r if this was the Q train? Middle signs say N but some signs are blank with K.

 

What's funny is that I got on the same train going back at around 4:15 at Kings Highway. Some signs were correct while others still said   / World Trade Center / 8th Avenue Local. People are still hesitating to walk on to this weird old-looking train Brighton riders almost haven't seen before.

[NewFlyer 230]

You gotta love the R62s and it’s crazy to see how the 30+ year old cars in 2019 had a better MDBF than the R160s that are 10-14 years old. I mean yeah I know the  isn’t a super heavy line but the cars are still in their 30s. 

[P3F]

1 hour ago, Calvin said:

Kings Hwy, today at 2:30 PM omw to a photo event. Got on the  that was a R46 and the  that was a R68A arrived at the same time as the Q making the connection. Getting on the B, the C/R on the B surprisingly asked (with humor) the Q C/R "Is this really the Q or that the R went on the wrong way?"

*Even passengers at Kings Hwy asked the Q c/r if this was the Q train? Middle signs say N but some signs are blank with K.

 

If Coney Island is serious about fixing the R46 signs, then this should be much less of a problem once they get to working on more of them.

[MysteriousBtrain]

8 hours ago, darkstar8983 said:

See! What did I tell you?!

this swap has caused the  to again have the worst service! It hasn’t been this bad since prior to the R160s being delivered. Yes, signals and tracks have been getting some heavy duty maintenance, but look at OTP...virtually every route did better except the  who got the subway car downgrade of the century.

 

6 hours ago, darkstar8983 said:

I did not interpret it wrong. Despite the numbers going up, the  had the smallest increase and ended up with the lowest score. That’s my main point, and lines that share tracks with the  did significantly better. I’m just saying the  will go down from here with the recent downgrade

So because of the R46 swap that happened starting in November 2019, the OTP on the and increased 0.7-1% from January 2019 to January 2020, which also caused it to have the lowest OTP both years.

 

You seriously need to stop talking out your ass.

Edited February 22, 2020 by MysteriousBtrain

[Jemorie]

6 hours ago, Calvin said:

Kings Hwy, today at 2:30 PM omw to a photo event. Got on the  that was a R46 and the  that was a R68A arrived at the same time as the Q making the connection. Getting on the B, the C/R on the B surprisingly asked (with humor) the Q C/R "Is this really the Q or that the R went on the wrong way?"

*Even passengers at Kings Hwy asked the Q c/r if this was the Q train? Middle signs say N but some signs are blank with K.

 

🙄
 

@NewFlyer 230, it isn’t a “super heavy line” only because of its overall irregular service in addition to its crappy weekend headways. 

Edited February 22, 2020 by Jemorie

[MHV9218]

Thought it was worth sharing this clear photo of a mid-1970s 'semi-Vignelli' station sign. As the NYCTA switched from black-on-white to white-on-black, for whatever reason the bullet modules often stayed in the original form until the late-1970s when they switched entirely. Black-on-white signs were used from 1967-1973, roughly, and by around 1973/1974 the first signs of the current inverted form made an appearance. This sign is quite easy to date: the station was overhauled in 1973, receiving the same godawful red brick tiles over its original BMT mosaics as a number of other stations. With that renovation came porcelain enamel white-on-black nameplate signs (with a unique white stripe at the bottom as well as the top of the sign), as well as these metal overhead signs with this combined color style. The station signs actually lasted until only a few years ago, but these signs have been gone for ages. This style of white bullet/black sign was most commonly used at IRT stations (West Side, East Side, Shuttle, Flushing), so it's interesting to see this so clearly on a Manhattan BMT line. 

Doug Grotjahn photo from the late Joe Testagrose collection. 1977.

Edited February 22, 2020 by MHV9218

[Lex]

5 hours ago, Jemorie said:

 

@NewFlyer 230, it isn’t a “super heavy line” only because of its overall irregular service in addition to its crappy weekend headways. 

The  starts in Manhattan and ends in Brooklyn. All but two stations on the Brooklyn leg are served by the  in some capacity, whereas all but two stations on the entire route are served by the  in some capacity. Brooklyn IRT ridership leans heavily toward Lexington Avenue, whereas Manhattan ridership simply seeks a train.  East of Franklin Avenue, there are no real draws, and connections are typically fairly easy to make with other trains. Hell, until about 20 years ago, it ran using 9-car trains, only ending the practice in order to be a more capable supporter. (Its support role is, in fact, the only thing keeping it around. Even taking the night service into account, it's clear that its existence hangs from a thread, as most who actually care about it use one of the two stations with no regular  service whatsoever, and the MTA will point to the buses in a heartbeat.)

[Jemorie]

40 minutes ago, Lex said:

The  starts in Manhattan and ends in Brooklyn. All but two stations on the Brooklyn leg are served by the  in some capacity, whereas all but two stations on the entire route are served by the  in some capacity. Brooklyn IRT ridership leans heavily toward Lexington Avenue, whereas Manhattan ridership simply seeks a train.  East of Franklin Avenue, there are no real draws, and connections are typically fairly easy to make with other trains. Hell, until about 20 years ago, it ran using 9-car trains, only ending the practice in order to be a more capable supporter. (Its support role is, in fact, the only thing keeping it around. Even taking the night service into account, it's clear that its existence hangs from a thread, as most who actually care about it use one of the two stations with no regular  service whatsoever, and the MTA will point to the buses in a heartbeat.)

Okay? Lol, but you're posting all that as if I didn't know all this time around, when I already alternate between the  and  for years now.  

Point I was making is my overall experiences with the  and that overall service performances can have an impact on ridership anyway. I'm sure someone here a while ago informed me of that when I used to be obsessed with the 's loading guideline policy, so to speak. Connections across the platform at express stations aren't "typically fairly easy", well, not on a weekend anyway, if you just happen to miss the train on an arriving crowded  and having to wait approximately 13+ minutes or more for the next  to New Lots. Other than rush hour, late evenings, overnight, and early Sunday mornings, the  is the only line serving the New Lots Branch, Kingston, and Nostrand. Even during rush hour sometimes, the  often tends to be a no-show. In general, you only get lucky if it's already held by supervision or coming in at the same time. Those limited rush hour s & s to New Lots and whatever scheduled s in the evening to New Lots don't really count so.

Edited February 22, 2020 by Jemorie

[Lex]

58 minutes ago, Jemorie said:

Connections across the platform at express stations aren't "typically fairly easy", well, not on a weekend anyway, if you just happen to miss the train on an arriving crowded  and having to wait approximately 13+ minutes or more for the next  to New Lots.

Thing is, I wasn't talking about that.

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

16 hours ago, Jemorie said:

Dude, I don't know what you're talking about. That statement is more true towards @darkstar8983 than to me anyway. And my post was not solely about the R46s making the  look bad. Even if I happen to live/work/go to school along the line on a daily basis, I would in no way, shape or form even considered doing such nonsense. I live along the  and deal with the R46s regularly on my commute anyway so I'm already used to them even if I don't like them.

You conveniently left out the part of the post above which goes in hand with the first part of what you quoted from me, so lets not act like we're all befuddled out of nowhere.  All those lines I mentioned had worse OTPs than the  /  , so AFAIC, his statement is factually incorrect. 

You yourself stated:

17 hours ago, Jemorie said:

It's a shame how some people still continue to think @darkstar8983 is bullshitting around when he's not really entirely in the wrong...

Well, my first sentence in that second part (the first sentence of the part of the post you quoted me on) was in response to that statement. I can read, and I have read the posts throughout this thread, so I know what's going on. You referenced him in your own post, so why would I be talking about you??? Like I mentioned, there's nothing wrong with having resentment for a particular train type. But by saying what you said above, you're basically agreeing with his argumentative style.

He's making baseless statements and his argument isn't substantive as a result of it, so that is in fact, bullshitting around. On top of that, his post about he claims to avoid R46s are not rational, no matter how you splice it. It throws out whatever credibility he had left, and I don't blame everybody else for calling him out on it. Doesn't matter if your post is 100% correct or not, if you are not going to convey it in a way which is conducive to discussions, then you will catch heat for it.