SUBWAY - Random Thoughts Topic

[Deucey]

1 hour ago, CenSin said:

Don’t know about the geography, but with tunnel boring machines and few station stops, this could be done with minimal disruption to the surface. Going north,

• Send two ramps down to the Bay Ridge Branch right-of-way north of the New Lots Avenue station.
• Build a station stop at Livonia Avenue.
• Build a station connecting to the LIRR and the at Atlantic Avenue.
• Build a station connecting to Broadway Junction.
• Send two ramps into a deep-bore tunnel at Irving Avenue, following the tunnel under Wyckoff Avenue all the way to the Myrtle Avenue station where a transfer to the will be built.
• Continue under the tunnel to Flushing Avenue and then bore diagonally under the street grid to Union and Metropolitan Avenues for where a transfer to the will. be built.
• Under the Brooklyn–Queens Expressway, the tunnel will rise up to reconnect with the , merging back into 2 tracks. The lower level will have stub ends for possible capacity expansion across the East River.

The only boring will be done between Cooper and Wyckoff Avenues and the Brooklyn–Queens Expressway. That will be all deep-bore with 2 intervening stations built below the existing ones. All other other stations will be built on existing right-of-ways repurposed for the express service. Station stops:

• Canarsie–Rockaway Parkway
• East 105 Street
• New Lots Avenue
• Livonia Avenue
• Atlantic Avenue
• Broadway Junction
• Myrtle–Wyckoff Avenues
• Lorimer Street
• Bedford Avenue
• 1 Avenue
• 3 Avenue
• 14 Street–Union Square
• 6 Avenue
• 8 Avenue

14 stops in total, 10 stations skipped—4 of those along the serpentine portion of the local route

Was this something you came up with on the spot, or did you think about this before?

[VIP]

Delete.

Edited February 29, 2020 by VIP
Deleted

[Calvin]

https://nypost.com/2020/02/28/mta-saddles-q-train-riders-with-old-subway-cars-to-prep-for-new-signal-system/?fbclid=IwAR1ZmPM1pgLvf2nr_xopcUToKllRojtyA_fY7a4fCsRtK3c5xjjdC0YgWR0

2nd Av riders are getting used to the  with these trains. However, there are ups and downs. 

 

- Also, in observation, most of the  s to 96 St around 10:40 PM and up starting at 34 St-Herald Sq up to Atlantic-Barclays were entirely R46s. All of them were to turn back to Bay Pkwy making  train stops after Dekalb Av. 

- For this weekend's shuttle, there is an R46. 5854 has the orange in interest. 

Edited February 29, 2020 by Calvin

[MysteriousBtrain]

1 hour ago, Calvin said:

https://nypost.com/2020/02/28/mta-saddles-q-train-riders-with-old-subway-cars-to-prep-for-new-signal-system/?fbclid=IwAR1ZmPM1pgLvf2nr_xopcUToKllRojtyA_fY7a4fCsRtK3c5xjjdC0YgWR0

2nd Av riders are getting used to the  with these trains. However, there are ups and downs.  

Before anyone decides to yell "I told you the R46s are gonna be hated by 2 avenue people" this is akin to how Williamsburg complained about their shutdown. Only difference is no plans are changing at all.

The rich people at Yorkville were complaining since construction on the second avenue line and UES residents are still complaining to this day. This is not something new.

[bobtehpanda]

10 hours ago, Deucey said:

Seeing this and how “far” it is to Manhattan makes me wonder why BRT/BMT didn’t make  a three track line with a proper express setup East of B-way Junction, and a 4 track to Marcy Av, or why  is two tracks.

Seems a lot of money could’ve been made if they did.

It was actually planned for that. IIRC when it came around time to actually do it, they found that the additional vibrations from a third track would've compromised the integrity of the structure, so they didn't.

Some plans for what would become the had four tracks. But this never came about because $$$, and really capacity pressure on the didn't build up until nearly a century later. Plus on top of that if you were to build out the power systems and appropriate terminals, CBTC systems elsewhere in the world achieve 40TPH, and the current only really pushes 21.

[bobtehpanda]

7 hours ago, CenSin said:

Don’t know about the geography, but with tunnel boring machines and few station stops, this could be done with minimal disruption to the surface. Going north,

• Send two ramps down to the Bay Ridge Branch right-of-way north of the New Lots Avenue station.
• Build a station stop at Livonia Avenue.
• Build a station connecting to the LIRR and the at Atlantic Avenue.
• Build a station connecting to Broadway Junction.
• Send two ramps into a deep-bore tunnel at Irving Avenue, following the tunnel under Wyckoff Avenue all the way to the Myrtle Avenue station where a transfer to the will be built.
• Continue under the tunnel to Flushing Avenue and then bore diagonally under the street grid to Union and Metropolitan Avenues for where a transfer to the will. be built.
• Under the Brooklyn–Queens Expressway, the tunnel will rise up to reconnect with the , merging back into 2 tracks. The lower level will have stub ends for possible capacity expansion across the East River.

The only boring will be done between Cooper and Wyckoff Avenues and the Brooklyn–Queens Expressway. That will be all deep-bore with 2 intervening stations built below the existing ones. All other other stations will be built on existing right-of-ways repurposed for the express service. Station stops:

• Canarsie–Rockaway Parkway
• East 105 Street
• New Lots Avenue
• Livonia Avenue
• Atlantic Avenue
• Broadway Junction
• Myrtle–Wyckoff Avenues
• Lorimer Street
• Bedford Avenue
• 1 Avenue
• 3 Avenue
• 14 Street–Union Square
• 6 Avenue
• 8 Avenue

14 stops in total, 10 stations skipped—4 of those along the serpentine portion of the local route

Your main issue would be 8 Av, because we are currently at the max capacity of 8 Av turning around trains + the power system. Power system upgrades only get an additional 5TPH so it's unclear how many trains you could even run under this express setup.

Quite frankly, rather than needlessly duplicating existing service, a new track pair to Williamsburg would best go under

• Grand St (connection to Metropolitan )
• Humboldt St (connection to Montrose  )
• jog over to Bushwick Ave
• and then a short diagonal cut to Stuyvesant Av with stops at
  • Broadway/Myrtle
  • Gates Av
  • Utica Av
• and then continuing under Utica.

[CenSin]

on the middle track between 18 Avenue and Ditmas Avenue right now.

At Church Avenue, train on the express track southbound.

Edited February 29, 2020 by CenSin

[MassTransitHonchkrow]

22 hours ago, Deucey said:

Seeing this and how “far” it is to Manhattan makes me wonder why BRT/BMT didn’t make  a three track line with a proper express setup East of B-way Junction, and a 4 track to Marcy Av, or why  is two tracks.

Seems a lot of money could’ve been made if they did.

Making money was never the goal. The [very rich] people holding onto that $40bn of debt are gonna get rich at the expense of the MTA by this summer. Byford's actions would threaten their payday. It's why he's out. Kiss those pensions goodbye. St. Clare's was a warning shot to the sorry state of retirement in New York State.

 

A similar dynamic is playing out in Miami, Honolulu and Seattle.

[bobtehpanda]

1 hour ago, MassTransitHonchkrow said:

Making money was never the goal. The [very rich] people holding onto that $40bn of debt are gonna get rich at the expense of the MTA by this summer. Byford's actions would threaten their payday. It's why he's out. Kiss those pensions goodbye. St. Clare's was a warning shot to the sorry state of retirement in New York State.

 

A similar dynamic is playing out in Miami, Honolulu and Seattle.

Did you even read any of the conversation around that? We're talking about projects started by the MTA's predecessor a century ago. All those bonds are retired and everyone involved in the construction, planning, or financing is dead.

[Jova42R]

are there any lines that the  would like to close if they could? I know that the and the  might be those. Also probably be Franklin Avenue and the  may be targets of the

Also, how expensive would it be to restore subway service in the Atlantic Avenue tunnel and reroute some  or  Trains through the tunnel and then expressed to Atlantic Terminal?

Edited March 1, 2020 by Jova42R

[Jova42R]

Delete

Edited March 1, 2020 by Jova42R

[Jova42R]

Is there any feasible way to make a station on a bridge? I was thinking that this could be done on the Manhattan Bridge to provide  service to do DUMBO in addition to the .

Also, How expensive would it be to run the  up sixth Avenue local during the non-rush so that sixth Avenue riders would have a Jamaica express to supplement the

Edited March 1, 2020 by Jova42R

[Jova42R]

Delete

Edited March 1, 2020 by Jova42R

[Deucey]

4 hours ago, Jova42R said:

Is there any feasible way to make a station on a bridge? I was thinking that this could be done on the Manhattan Bridge to provide  service to do DUMBO in addition to the .

Also, How expensive would it be to run the  up sixth Avenue local during the non-rush so that sixth Avenue riders would have a Jamaica express to supplement the

Given the Manny B just underwent a long term repair job because someone had this bright idea of putting train tracks on the outside of the bridge so it twisted one way or the other whenever a train crossed, its highly unlikely that any engineer would put a station on either side of it. (I’m sure they cringe every time a train is stopped on it because of red signals.)

Then for your  idea, how many  trains do you get rid of so there’s capacity for it?

[bobtehpanda]

14 hours ago, Deucey said:

Given the Manny B just underwent a long term repair job because someone had this bright idea of putting train tracks on the outside of the bridge so it twisted one way or the other whenever a train crossed, its highly unlikely that any engineer would put a station on either side of it. (I’m sure they cringe every time a train is stopped on it because of red signals.)

The other thing is that you also need a station to be flat for various reasons, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that bridge approaches are not flat...

[Deucey]

2 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

The other thing is that you also need a station to be flat for various reasons, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that bridge approaches are not flat...

Oh yeah - all the delays from items rolling off the platform because of the grade alone.

Then the whole “where to put the island platform at and both re-lay the tracks while keeping the roadway supports thing.

And then the whole passenger egress issue...plus the trains twisting the bridge thing.

Its a pipe dream until the Manny B is torn down and rebuilt.

[MassTransitHonchkrow]

On 2/29/2020 at 6:52 PM, bobtehpanda said:

Did you even read any of the conversation around that? We're talking about projects started by the MTA's predecessor a century ago. All those bonds are retired and everyone involved in the construction, planning, or financing is dead.

It's possible I didn't. Could you give me the index so I can catch up? Thanks.

[Calvin]

Interesting to see 3 R160B siemens on the  back to back from Gravesend-86 St to 8 Av. Also noticing that crew changes take place at Kings Hwy. Thought it would be 86 St as it's the relay point. 

Edited March 2, 2020 by Calvin

[darkstar8983]

1 hour ago, Calvin said:

Interesting to see 3 R160B siemens on the  back to back from Gravesend-86 St to 8 Av. Also noticing that crew changes take place at Kings Hwy. Thought it would be 86 St as it's the relay point. 

There were at least 5 R160B Siemens on the  today - alternating R46/R160B. Maybe since the majority of the s fleet was out of service this weekend due to the weekend work, they decided to give the R46s a break. And no R160s were on the Astoria layup

[CenSin]

On 2/28/2020 at 10:18 PM, Deucey said:

Was this something you came up with on the spot, or did you think about this before?

Pulled out of a special place

On 2/29/2020 at 5:05 AM, bobtehpanda said:

Your main issue would be 8 Av, because we are currently at the max capacity of 8 Av turning around trains + the power system. Power system upgrades only get an additional 5TPH so it's unclear how many trains you could even run under this express setup.

Then build out the terminals and power systems, then we’d get 20 TPH local and 20 TPH express?

[Deucey]

On 2/29/2020 at 5:05 AM, bobtehpanda said:

Your main issue would be 8 Av, because we are currently at the max capacity of 8 Av turning around trains + the power system. Power system upgrades only get an additional 5TPH so it's unclear how many trains you could even run under this express setup.

Which leads me to ask why 207 St  ends at a wall instead of tail tracks? On maps it looks like there’s enough room on B-way to have them without reaching the Harlem River.

Or was it built with plans to go to the Bronx?

[T to Dyre Avenue]

On 2/29/2020 at 7:04 PM, Jova42R said:

Is there any feasible way to make a station on a bridge? I was thinking that this could be done on the Manhattan Bridge to provide  service to do DUMBO in addition to the .

Also, How expensive would it be to run the  up sixth Avenue local during the non-rush so that sixth Avenue riders would have a Jamaica express to supplement the

For one thing, it would have to be two stations, since the  and  run over the bridge on two separate pairs of tracks. Either way, it’s not feasible due to the track grades approaching the bridge and lack of space to put platforms on the span. However, I’ve always wondered (even before online transit forums existed!) if it would be feasible to build to locate a dual-island platform station (underground, of course!) in the MetroTech area just before the tracks begin to split up. I’m not really sure how much distance there is between DeKalb Junction and the DeKalb Avenue station, but if such a station existed, it would allow riders to be able to transfer cross-platform between the  and , so that would go towards addressing concerns that DeKalb and Atlantic would be overwhelmed by transferring passengers if DeKalb Junction is deinterlined. 

As for this off-peak  via 6th Avenue, it’s not so much that it would be expensive to run it. Rather, it would be an operational headache to run it. You’d have to sacrifice some  and/or  service to fit the , even during midday off peak hours. Is there even a significant demand for a direct 6th Avenue service to the Jamaica Avenue el stations during midday off-peak hours?

Edited March 2, 2020 by T to Dyre Avenue

[bobtehpanda]

5 hours ago, CenSin said:

Then build out the terminals and power systems, then we’d get 20 TPH local and 20 TPH express?

The question is, why would you build two new tracks towards a place that can't use em effectively? that 40TPH could go somewhere else and you could make the regular 40TPH. 

1 hour ago, Deucey said:

Which leads me to ask why 207 St  ends at a wall instead of tail tracks? On maps it looks like there’s enough room on B-way to have them without reaching the Harlem River.

Or was it built with plans to go to the Bronx?

I can't say for sure.

IIRC there are provisions for the to connect to the GWB.

[bobtehpanda]

24 minutes ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

For one thing, it would have to be two stations, since the  and  run over the bridge on two separate pairs of tracks. Either way, it’s not feasible due to the track grades approaching the bridge and lack of space to put platforms on the span. However, I’ve always wondered (even before online transit forums existed!) if it would be feasible to build to locate a dual-island platform station (underground, of course!) in the MetroTech area just before the tracks begin to split up. I’m not really sure how much distance there is between DeKalb Junction and the DeKalb Avenue station, but if such a station existed, it would allow riders to be able to transfer cross-platform between the  and , so that would go towards addressing concerns that DeKalb and Atlantic would be overwhelmed by transferring passengers if DeKalb Junction is deinterlined. 

You mean, the old Myrtle Avenue station?

[T to Dyre Avenue]

1 minute ago, bobtehpanda said:

You mean, the old Myrtle Avenue station?

Well, roughly in that same area. But the old Myrtle Avenue station had side platforms, one of which was destroyed when DeKalb Junction was reconfigured in the 1950s