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3 hours ago, Deucey said:

So occasionally - like at Astor Place, you see yellow signs saying something like “Off-Peak trains stop here”.

After platform lengthening finished, were train lengths not always 10 cars (or 8 for 75 footers) - excluding shuttles and the 9 car (3) train? And at that sign, what stopped there - the operators cab, the conductor’s cab, or was that where the last car of the train platformed?

By the way, those Astor signs have been covered up completely, and a lot of stations are having those signs removed. I forget the exact article, but there's a clipping about the year those signs first showed up. I believe they were installed from 1982-1987. Technically, the distinction is partly in the phrasing. A lot of those signs, like the one at Astor, said "Off Hours Boarding Area," since by the time they were installed it wasn't always about shorter trains, but more about keeping a well-lit section of the station within view of the token clerk. Then you had a separate variety (which, by the font, are probably newer, from 1988 or so) that said "During off-hours trains stop here." That was for shorter overnight consists, but I think that was a lot less common. Good question on which part of the train lined up.

1 hour ago, shiznit1987 said:

The lack of police presence/ridership is starting to be felt: last night on the way home the (7) pulls into 52nd st and the Flushing-bound side is b.o.m.b.e.d with graff. Like cicra 1982 style. People can scream "broken windows/guiliani lover" but I bet dollars to donuts this plays into what happened at 110st (2)(3) the other day. No cops, No riders, No rules. 

I heard about the 52nd St. hit. I'd be curious to see, except I'm not getting on a train for no good reason. I do think that a version of this is gonna happen – there's nobody out there.

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22 minutes ago, MHV9218 said:

By the way, those Astor signs have been covered up completely, and a lot of stations are having those signs removed. I forget the exact article, but there's a clipping about the year those signs first showed up. I believe they were installed from 1982-1987. Technically, the distinction is partly in the phrasing. A lot of those signs, like the one at Astor, said "Off Hours Boarding Area," since by the time they were installed it wasn't always about shorter trains, but more about keeping a well-lit section of the station within view of the token clerk. Then you had a separate variety (which, by the font, are probably newer, from 1988 or so) that said "During off-hours trains stop here." That was for shorter overnight consists, but I think that was a lot less common. Good question on which part of the train lined up.

So there never was a time where (NYCT) operated like BART or WMATA where there could be 10, 6, and 8 car (6)<6> trains showing up in succession, or overnights with 6 car trains to save money?

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1 minute ago, Deucey said:

So there never was a time where (NYCT) operated like BART or WMATA where there could be 10, 6, and 8 car (6)<6> trains showing up in succession, or overnights with 6 car trains to save money?

Oh there definitely was a time with different length consists based on the time of day, but--and others will know this better than I do--I think that was mainly a practice that lasted into the 70s or so. I know the :6: was running half-length overnight through the 70s, probably the same on a number of other lines. And even more extreme would have been the BMT running different length consists for midday, rush hour, and overnight way back in the early days. The yellow signs from the 80s though are mainly about boarding, in terms of safety on the platform.

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4 hours ago, Theli11 said:

People are always going to commit a crime. You put more cops in stations located in Harlem, the Bronx, Midtown and East New York, you neglect all the other places. Police Presence doesn't STOP crimes, it just deters them to another place. 

Interesting view… so some neighborhoods have high crime precisely because police are not present? Would that have anything to do with bad neighborhoods staying bad because police forces prefer not to be around?

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4 hours ago, 4 via Mosholu said:

It was the '83 Midwood and East New York swap that caused the (3) train to operate nine cars. This nine car role was initially given to the (2) train to do, since it ran to New Lots Avenue and the (3) train ran ten cars to the Bush. The factors behind this swap include the fact that the Bush was a dead end terminal, and Lenox Yard did not have enough space to be a primary yard. In addition, it's only access to a primary yard was either through Van Cortlandt or Wakefield Yards. Ridership would have necessitated ten cars on the (3) train, but the tracks and signal positions at Lenox Yard and 148 Street - Lenox Terminal were only long enough to support nine car consists.

9/11 was the reason why ten car consists were finally put into service on the (3) train; it would have been done with the R142 entering service on the (3) train in time, but had to be pushed up by around the 12. As part of the change in plans, the R62 cars from the (4) train were sent over to Lenox beginning around 2004 - with the remaining ones sent over to Lenox in 2008 or 09. The (3) train switched storage yards during the period it traveled to 14 Street, having it north of 137 Street - City College, since Lenox Yard was being reconfigured to support ten cars with a signal realignment project in the days after the attacks. Once that was fully done, the (3) train returned to Lenox and East New York,

Change your lines and we’re on the right track. Lenox ran 9 car (3) consists to Flatbush Avenue while the (2) ran 10 car consists to New Lots except for midnight runs which were 5 car trains. You are correct that Lenox wasn’t set up for 10 car trains. There were a few tracks that could hold 10 cars but the majority was limited to less capacity. The Lenox yard was originally a maintenance facility and a storage yard but the barn was long gone before the Lenox Terminal station was constructed. As you mentioned VC, 239th, and later E180 maintained our fleet of mixed equipment. I broke in on nine car Lenox trains and worked switching jobs at 148 st. The original (unused) signal tower was at the entrance to the yard next to the river and we could look at Yankee Stadium from the yard tracks. We even had a “vacuum train track “, 25 or 26 track, IIRC, that was never used because it flooded after heavy rains. Imagine working Lenox yard on a sunny summer afternoon with pleasure craft passing by and the young ladies waving at us while topless or totally nude. The Chief Transportation Officer lived upstairs and every Saturday afternoon he would drop by and tease my partner and I. We just switched southern terminals after the swap and the (3) finally got it’s own barn. Just my remembrance. Carry on.

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17 hours ago, Deucey said:

So occasionally - like at Astor Place, you see yellow signs saying something like “Off-Peak trains stop here”.

After platform lengthening finished, were train lengths not always 10 cars (or 8 for 75 footers) - excluding shuttles and the 9 car (3) train? And at that sign, what stopped there - the operators cab, the conductor’s cab, or was that where the last car of the train platformed?

In 1991, to cut costs the MTA started bringing back short trains. I have a few brochures on this that I can post that a lot of you will find interesting. They took down the yellow signs at most stations, but some, like 75th Avenue, still have them.

 

17 hours ago, Deucey said:

So occasionally - like at Astor Place, you see yellow signs saying something like “Off-Peak trains stop here”.

After platform lengthening finished, were train lengths not always 10 cars (or 8 for 75 footers) - excluding shuttles and the 9 car (3) train? And at that sign, what stopped there - the operators cab, the conductor’s cab, or was that where the last car of the train platformed?

All (3) platforms except 145th Street, which could only fit 6.5 cars, were 10-cars long. There used to be 9-car signs in stations. Some still have them.

At that sign, I believe that is where the T/O stopped.

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14 hours ago, MHV9218 said:

By the way, those Astor signs have been covered up completely, and a lot of stations are having those signs removed. I forget the exact article, but there's a clipping about the year those signs first showed up. I believe they were installed from 1982-1987. Technically, the distinction is partly in the phrasing. A lot of those signs, like the one at Astor, said "Off Hours Boarding Area," since by the time they were installed it wasn't always about shorter trains, but more about keeping a well-lit section of the station within view of the token clerk. Then you had a separate variety (which, by the font, are probably newer, from 1988 or so) that said "During off-hours trains stop here." That was for shorter overnight consists, but I think that was a lot less common. Good question on which part of the train lined up.

I heard about the 52nd St. hit. I'd be curious to see, except I'm not getting on a train for no good reason. I do think that a version of this is gonna happen – there's nobody out there.

The Off-Hours Waiting Area signs were part of a safety program in the mid-1980s. In many stations, these are in the mezzanines, but in others they are near the conductor's position. I can share more on that later. 

The During off-hours train stop here signs got put in c. 1990-1991 as train lengths were reduced during off-hours due to budget cuts.

Edited by Union Tpke
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14 hours ago, MHV9218 said:

Oh there definitely was a time with different length consists based on the time of day, but--and others will know this better than I do--I think that was mainly a practice that lasted into the 70s or so. I know the :6: was running half-length overnight through the 70s, probably the same on a number of other lines. And even more extreme would have been the BMT running different length consists for midday, rush hour, and overnight way back in the early days. The yellow signs from the 80s though are mainly about boarding, in terms of safety on the platform.

Correct. The folks at subchat, like Randyo, would know better, and there have been many discussions on train lengths over the years.

Look at the car lengths in this old (RR)  employee timetable from 1970:

16132187900_bae9012ee6_h.jpgDivision &quot;B&quot; - File No. RR-1001 Daily/Sunday Time Table In Effect &quot;RR&quot; Fourth Avenue Line by Union Turnpike, on Flickr

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That's fascinating! The sheer number of different consist lengths over the course of one day! Have to wonder if it was more work switching and breaking consists than it was money saved by running fewer cars...

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13 minutes ago, MHV9218 said:

That's fascinating! The sheer number of different consist lengths over the course of one day! Have to wonder if it was more work switching and breaking consists than it was money saved by running fewer cars...

I used to watch Sacramento RT do it when it ran two-car trains outside rush hour on the starter line (now the northern half of the Blue Line). The train would sit at Swanston or Marconi/Arcade Station, move anyone in the rear two cars to the front two (3-5 minute wait there), then the employee that moved them would - in tandem with the operator - decouple the train. The remaining two cars would leave slowly then jump back to speed on its run, while the decoupled car had to go through its process to “drive”, wait for reds and switches to clear, then pull into the yard.

PM rush it’d be the same process except the empty two cars would attach at the rear so if you were on the train in service, you felt this “thud”, waited 3-5 minutes for the confirmation the coupler was secure, then on your way.

That’s on a system with 15 minute headways. It’d be interesting to know how (NYCT) did it when those 4-car trains needed to be 8 to 10 car trains for rush or for overcrowding.

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5 hours ago, Deucey said:

I used to watch Sacramento RT do it when it ran two-car trains outside rush hour on the starter line (now the northern half of the Blue Line). The train would sit at Swanston or Marconi/Arcade Station, move anyone in the rear two cars to the front two (3-5 minute wait there), then the employee that moved them would - in tandem with the operator - decouple the train. The remaining two cars would leave slowly then jump back to speed on its run, while the decoupled car had to go through its process to “drive”, wait for reds and switches to clear, then pull into the yard.

PM rush it’d be the same process except the empty two cars would attach at the rear so if you were on the train in service, you felt this “thud”, waited 3-5 minutes for the confirmation the coupler was secure, then on your way.

That’s on a system with 15 minute headways. It’d be interesting to know how (NYCT) did it when those 4-car trains needed to be 8 to 10 car trains for rush or for overcrowding.

Just imagine how many yard switching jobs were eliminated when we went to 4 or 5 car units instead of single or married pair cars. Bottom line thinking by the bean counters 😁. Carry on.

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1 hour ago, Trainmaster5 said:

Just imagine how many yard switching jobs were eliminated when we went to 4 or 5 car units instead of single or married pair cars. Bottom line thinking by the bean counters 😁. Carry on.

Not only that, the 4-5 car units reduced operational flexibility.

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1 hour ago, Trainmaster5 said:

Just imagine how many yard switching jobs were eliminated when we went to 4 or 5 car units instead of single or married pair cars. Bottom line thinking by the bean counters 😁. Carry on.

So if a 4 or 5 car was in service and needed to get another 4 or 5 added on, it went out of service and got replaced by an 8 or 10 car consist, or it sat on a layup track and had the other cars added on?

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23 minutes ago, Deucey said:

So if a 4 or 5 car was in service and needed to get another 4 or 5 added on, it went out of service and got replaced by an 8 or 10 car consist, or it sat on a layup track and had the other cars added on?

Most likely it was brought to the yard OOS to get the extra cars. The (MTA) would not want to have a train out on the road that was holding up traffic in both directions just for extra cars.

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31 minutes ago, Deucey said:

So if a 4 or 5 car was in service and needed to get another 4 or 5 added on, it went out of service and got replaced by an 8 or 10 car consist, or it sat on a layup track and had the other cars added on?

It depended on location IIRC. VC, New Lots, Dyre Shuttle ( SMEE) , were cut 5+5 in the station. I went to Main St once in the 80’s and they were running 5 and 6 car trains late night with temporary wooden platforms. The conductor was an old timer and didn’t mind where I stopped because I didn’t know where the stop marker signs were anyway. I made one round trip and never went back to the (7) again. I’m guessing that the B division had their own routine. Just my memories. Carry on.

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13 hours ago, Union Tpke said:

All (3) platforms except 145th Street, which could only fit 6.5 cars, were 10-cars long. There used to be 9-car signs in stations. Some still have them.

At that sign, I believe that is where the T/O stopped.

This reminds me:

Anyone know if the R262s will have selective door opening?

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Deucey said:

So if a 4 or 5 car was in service and needed to get another 4 or 5 added on, it went out of service and got replaced by an 8 or 10 car consist, or it sat on a layup track and had the other cars added on?

On the Lenox Shuttle back in the ancient days we would cut the south 4 cars off in the station and use them for the shuttle. The remaining 5 cars were laid up in the yard. As a conductor I would only open the second south car for the passengers which made it easy to clean out at 135th St. You can imagine the rider’s dismay when we started getting married pairs with AC and my car and the fourth car had AC and their car didn’t. Two stops, 10 passengers, with 2 who paid 😀. I’ll let you guess who complained the loudest. Carry on.

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7 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

On the Lenox Shuttle back in the ancient days we would cut the south 4 cars off in the station and use them for the shuttle. The remaining 5 cars were laid up in the yard. As a conductor I would only open the second south car for the passengers which made it easy to clean out at 135th St. You can imagine the rider’s dismay when we started getting married pairs with AC and my car and the fourth car had AC and their car didn’t. Two stops, 10 passengers, with 2 who paid 😀. I’ll let you guess who complained the loudest. Carry on.

How long did that decoupling process take?

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11 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

It depended on location IIRC. VC, New Lots, Dyre Shuttle ( SMEE) , were cut 5+5 in the station. I went to Main St once in the 80’s and they were running 5 and 6 car trains late night with temporary wooden platforms. The conductor was an old timer and didn’t mind where I stopped because I didn’t know where the stop marker signs were anyway. I made one round trip and never went back to the (7) again. I’m guessing that the B division had their own routine. Just my memories. Carry on.

Why were you on the (7) that one time?

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5 hours ago, Deucey said:

How long did that decoupling process take?

Less than 3 minutes. A pro , or 2 people, can do it in less time than that. Depends on how long it takes to charge the air brake trainline. With SMEE cars it’s charge, remove safety chains, apply hand brake(s) on remaining equipment, return to original position , insert cutting key, use reverser, back off one foot. Cake baked. The remaining cars will have the emergency brakes activated when you separate the cars. If everything works as designed. Perhaps an active train operator can correct me because it’s been decades since I last cut a train. The procedure with NTT is different than I described but the general idea is the same. Hope this helps you. Carry on.

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4 hours ago, Union Tpke said:

Why were you on the (7) that one time?

Work train in Corona yard was cancelled so I was used until the person assigned by the crew office arrived from the Grand Central Shuttle dispatcher’s office. In my whole RTO career I have made 5 round trips total on the (7) up front and in the middle and even less on the (4) and the (6) lines. I was a Lenox guy, (2) , (3) or (5) line while the (4) and (6) were under the Eastern section, pick wise and the (7) was Queens. Work train, Transfers, and Utility titles meant that I could traverse all that territory as well as the other divisions. I knew  BMT Southern people who were in East New York yard fewer times than I was. Back then it all depended on “ the needs of the service “ and the Desk Trainmasters who decided that myself and a few others in my position were qualified in the other division without ever having been broken in on those lines. Sorry for the long reply but you brought back some memories of a different era in RTO. Carry on.

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Just now, Trainmaster5 said:

Work train in Corona yard was cancelled so I was used until the person assigned by the crew office arrived from the Grand Central Shuttle dispatcher’s office. In my whole RTO career I have made 5 round trips total on the (7) up front and in the middle and even less on the (4) and the (6) lines. I was a Lenox guy, (2) , (3) or (5) line while the (4) and (6) were under the Eastern section, pick wise and the (7) was Queens. Work train, Transfers, and Utility titles meant that I could traverse all that territory as well as the other divisions. I knew  BMT Southern people who were in East New York yard fewer times than I was. Back then it all depended on “ the needs of the service “ and the Desk Trainmasters who decided that myself and a few others in my position were qualified in the other division without ever having been broken in on those lines. Sorry for the long reply but you brought back some memories of a different era in RTO. Carry on.

I appreciate your long reply, which is why I asked you. Which line did you like the most?

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10 minutes ago, Union Tpke said:

I appreciate your long reply, which is why I asked you. Which line did you like the most?

This is a trick question, right ? (5) ………. (5) ………. (3) ……….. (2)  …….. I listed them in that order but there is some background that I should explain. When I came to RTO the IRT was a Bronx based division. Most jobs started there. I was a Brooklynite without a car. To actually pick a job that started in my neck of the woods meant you had beaucoup seniority. So I was an Extra List C/R. A two trip job on the (2) meant that I was actually making 3 trips from New Lots to 241 St to get on the payroll, 2 round trips, and a trip to go home. Makes for a long day, trust me, but I'm not a quitter. The crew office people that did the assignments said that they did that to acquaint new employees to the whole system. I told them that I wasn't a newbie, I had been a provisional Transit employee, a RR Porter, a decade or so earlier, and that I had a bus and subway pass since 1960 and everything quickly changed. When you tell someone that you have cleaned the stations on the Myrtle Ave El from Bridge-Jay, opposite the Transit building, to Sumner Ave on the overnights it opens eyes quickly and the word gets around. I still traveled Uptown but Lenox Terminal was my destination 90% of the time. Believe me 2 trips from 148 to Flatbush feels like a vacation rather than 2 trips on the Beast. The good part was that the supervision that I met at 241St, Lenox, and Dyre as well as the crew office at Jay St knew each other so they looked out for me. The Chief Transportation Officer in the IRT lived upstairs at Lenox, his cohorts were the same guys who broke me in in school car as a C/R and as a M/M and my rabbi got promoted. It also didn't hurt to have the last civil service Trainmaster asking about my whereabouts and career from time to time. Imagine making a trip on a random Saturday or Sunday night and your school car instructor, alone or with family, pops up in your operating car to see how you're doing ? And he's off duty.  Put simply it was a family affair in the Lenox Division and, to me, the pinnacle was the (5) line in those days. A round trip from Dyre Avenue or 241 St to Utica and a round trip from Dyre or East 180 St to Atlantic beats 2 round trips on the Beast from the Bronx to New Lots any day. Especially when the (5) jobs paid the same or more. After a stint in the Misc. work train, Transfer, and Utility world I picked a job on the (3) and finally one on the (5) and I never looked back. Picked jobs starting at East 180th, Dyre Avenue, and finally Brooklyn. The whole time I was surrounded by my original Lenox Division family. It was the same thing with some of my C/R classmates who always worked the (4) or (6) lines whom I never really saw except in Refresher courses, Fire School, or at the clinics. Even when they got promoted they remained in the Eastern section. End of history class. Break time. Carry on.

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1 hour ago, Trainmaster5 said:

Less than 3 minutes. A pro , or 2 people, can do it in less time than that. Depends on how long it takes to charge the air brake trainline. With SMEE cars it’s charge, remove safety chains, apply hand brake(s) on remaining equipment, return to original position , insert cutting key, use reverser, back off one foot. Cake baked. The remaining cars will have the emergency brakes activated when you separate the cars. If everything works as designed. Perhaps an active train operator can correct me because it’s been decades since I last cut a train. The procedure with NTT is different than I described but the general idea is the same. Hope this helps you. Carry on.

Forgot one thing. Before the cake is finished one must re-lock the storm doors and put the safety chains back in their new position.

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