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BUS - Random Thoughts Thread


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1 hour ago, Lil 57 said:

I can name a few:

B39 (Lowest ridership in the system) - Brings ADA riders from Marcy Ave to Essex Street because there are no elevators at Essex Street.

S55/56 - Tottenville HS students.

S54 - School kids for the most part.

S57 - School kids for the most part. Faced weekend elimination but was kept to provide 7-day service to Seaview Hospital.

If I ran the bus system I’d get some 35 foot Xcelsiors for routes like the B39.

I wonder how the operating costs compare between the XD35 and XD40...

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8 hours ago, lara8710 said:

Why do some bus routes suffer from low ridership? This is one reason why routes like the B33, B71 and Q79 have gone the way of the dodo in years past, and that makes me curious about why those routes were even established in the first place.

The B71 was low ridership, but considering that it only ran 2 buses at a time, there's a limit to how much ridership you could really get on that route. You can't just think purely in terms of ridership, but riders per mile, riders per hour, riders per bus, etc and by that measure the B71 didn't perform too poorly.

The Q79 is basically the Q36 weekday extension to Little Neck.

3 hours ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

Since the SIM4C no longer stops on Gannon Avenue, wouldn't it make sense to run them as SIM4 buses? The SIM2 is running in the Huguenot area at the same time that the SIM4Cs from Downtown to Huguenot run. 

Yeah, that's one of the things that I kept bringing up: The point of the redesign was to minimize overlap and try to pinpoint the precise routes that need additional service. I think part of the reason for the SIM2/SIM4C overlap is because the SIM2 runs infrequently in the late PM rush/early evening (really it's that 45 minute gap at the end that's the issue).

But yeah, I think a good strategy (for now, since I do believe off-peak service on the island overall needs restructuring) would be to run the SIM2, SIM4, and SIM8 at a similar span. So something like this (for weekdays of course)

SIM2 (From Hylan & Craig): 4:15am - 9:00am

SIM2 (From Broadway & Chambers): 2:00pm - 9:30pm

SIM4 (From Annadale Road & Drumgoole Road West): 4:15am - 9:15am

SIM4 (From Broadway & Chambers): 2:00pm - 9:30pm

SIM8 (From Woodrow & Huguenot): 4:15am - 9:00am

SIM8 (From 57th & Lexington): 1:30pm - 9:00pm

SIM4C (From Woodrow & Huguenot): 9:20am - 7:00pm

SIM4C (From 57th & Lexington): 10:25am - 1:10pm and 9:10pm - 12:20am

Notice how I said "57th & Lexington" instead of "CPS & 6th". There's no reason for the SIM4C & SIM33C to head east to Madison Avenue and then backtrack back to CPS & 6th. Also, there's a 12:20am "extra" that is a holdover from when it was the X17, and I believe it should be made a part of the official schedule.

Edited by checkmatechamp13
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10 hours ago, lara8710 said:

Why do some bus routes suffer from low ridership? This is one reason why routes like the B33, B71 and Q79 have gone the way of the dodo in years past, and that makes me curious about why those routes were even established in the first place.

In general? Too many to list.

Specifically with NYC's routes? Lot of it has to do with route antiquity, population fluctuations and/or demographical changes in particular neighborhoods over the course of time (this can perhaps be tied in with route antiquity, but nobody ever wants to consider this as a factor), declining quality of service, and/or flat out poor (and steadily worsening) service levels....

9 hours ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

Some routes are just outdated. They had a purpose back in the day (specific riderbases) that waned over time.

9 hours ago, lara8710 said:

When that comes to mind, I think of the B18 as the poster child for a bus route that lost its purpose over time. When it was first established, its purpose was to connect residents of Ridgewood and Cypress Hills to the light industrial factories of East Williamsburg. As the years went by, ridership on the B18 has dwindled as those factories closed or moved out of the city, which led to the MTA replacing it with a B13 extension to Metropolitan Avenue in 2002, only to be cut back to Wyckoff Hospital in 2010. Nowadays there's almost nothing left of the former B18 route...

I'd use the B74SS as a poster child (Brighton Beach is NOT a major shopping destination worth extending a bus route to/for... LMFAO)... Either that, or the B33 (Lefferts Gardens to Red Hook via Windsor Terrace.... In this generation??? Hah!)

Sure enough the B18 ended up succumbing due to antiquation, but I think that route's problem was more that it was always under the shadow of the B13 (kind of like the NY Mets/Yankees dynamic in this city)... In other words, it was less attractive than the B13 for many that were situated in that general pocket/catchment area... Didn't help that its terminal in Williamsburg was a stub either; it may have fared better if it additionally ran to industrial Williamsburg (Kent st area, where the Q59 used to end before it got extended to WBP) via industrial East Williamsburg, when the route was in its "prime"....

Edited by B35 via Church
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44 minutes ago, trainfan22 said:

I wonder if depots will have trouble making service today between buses being used for the various subway shuttles AND 40 footers being used on artic routes..

No. Regular service is priority over shuttles. And even depots that have shuttles going out its usually only a handful.

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For a route operating between Brooklyn and JFK, the B15 is VERY long and prone to bunching. Some would say it should be split into two routes, while others would argue it needs a LTD service (the latter of which I disagree with). What could be done to improve the route's reliability?

Splitting a long route might have worked with the M10/20 back in the late 90s and for the M5/55 recently, but I'm not sure if it'll work for the B15...

Edited by lara8710
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54 minutes ago, lara8710 said:

For a route operating between Brooklyn and JFK, the B15 is VERY long and prone to bunching. Some would say it should be split into two routes, while others would argue it needs a LTD service (the latter of which I disagree with). What could be done to improve the route's reliability?

Splitting a long route might have worked with the M10/20 back in the late 90s and for the M5/55 recently, but I'm not sure if it'll work for the B15...

The B15 is suppose to be on the SBS route, idk if that was changed.

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55 minutes ago, lara8710 said:

For a route operating between Brooklyn and JFK, the B15 is VERY long and prone to bunching. Some would say it should be split into two routes, while others would argue it needs a LTD service (the latter of which I disagree with). What could be done to improve the route's reliability?

Splitting a long route might have worked with the M10/20 back in the late 90s and for the M5/55 recently, but I'm not sure if it'll work for the B15...

 

For one half the drivers need to stop playing games and maybe most of the runs shouldn't be interlined ( though what do I know lol)

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1 hour ago, lara8710 said:

For a route operating between Brooklyn and JFK, the B15 is VERY long and prone to bunching. Some would say it should be split into two routes, while others would argue it needs a LTD service (the latter of which I disagree with). What could be done to improve the route's reliability?

Splitting a long route might have worked with the M10/20 back in the late 90s and for the M5/55 recently, but I'm not sure if it'll work for the B15...

I agree this route is pretty long , it also has a lot of turns which can make it even longer, some buses due short turn on linden boulevard. They should make a limited or SBS route to  supplement the B15

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34 minutes ago, Melbx15 said:

I agree this route is pretty long , it also has a lot of turns which can make it even longer, some buses due short turn on linden boulevard. They should make a limited or SBS route to  supplement the B15

I once proposed a LTD route from the Kings Highway (B)(Q) station to JFK to serve that purpose, but a couple of people on this forum disagreed with that idea, arguing that there's not enough demand to warrant it and that it wouldn't be necessary, so I scrapped it.

Edited by lara8710
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59 minutes ago, lara8710 said:

I once proposed a LTD route from the Kings Highway (B)(Q) station to JFK to serve that purpose, but a couple of people on this forum disagreed with that idea, arguing that there's not enough demand to warrant it and that it wouldn't be necessary, so I scrapped it.

I'd rather give LTD service to B15 rather than bother with that, TBF.

 

Don't want SBS service on those narrow ass roads on Brownsville/ENY :D

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On 1/18/2019 at 12:28 PM, XcelsiorBoii4888 said:

I would assume SBS drivers are at the lowest risk of having any confrontations due to all door boarding correct? I would assume there hasn't been any incidents to operators driving SBS routes. 

Only ones I've heard about were a NYPD confrontation on the Bx12 and an Eagle confrontation on the Q44.

The Q44 incident was a typical, aggressive farebeater that IINM did strike at an Eagle officer, but the Bx12 incident was uncalled for because the NYPD went all ham for the arrest. Turned out they beat down and arrested a paying customer.

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7 hours ago, lara8710 said:

For a route operating between Brooklyn and JFK, the B15 is VERY long and prone to bunching. Some would say it should be split into two routes, while others would argue it needs a LTD service (the latter of which I disagree with). What could be done to improve the route's reliability?

Splitting a long route might have worked with the M10/20 back in the late 90s and for the M5/55 recently, but I'm not sure if it'll work for the B15...

 

4 hours ago, Yankees4life said:

I'd rather give LTD service to B15 rather than bother with that, TBF.

 

Don't want SBS service on those narrow ass roads on Brownsville/ENY :D

It’s going to become an sbs route in the future. It may or may not be the same route but let the mta work on its routing. 

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5 hours ago, Yankees4life said:

I'd rather give LTD service to B15 rather than bother with that, TBF.

Generally speaking, LTD service on the B15 won't work. The route doesn't have the headways required for LTD service and it'll only make things worse for riders who will then have to wait more time for buses to arrive at their stops.

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Took a look here and all I get are mixed perceptions on what to do with the B15: 

 

I highly doubt that there would be riders riding the entire route between Woodhull Hospital and JFK. Even though I'm not sure about splitting the route in two, if that were to happen, I would cut back the current B15 to Drew Street/Linden Boulevard and establish a new route between East Flatbush/Brownsville and JFK.

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14 minutes ago, lara8710 said:

Took a look here and all I get are mixed perceptions on what to do with the B15: 

 

I highly doubt that there would be riders riding the entire route between Woodhull Hospital and JFK. Even though I'm not sure about splitting the route in two, if that were to happen, I would cut back the current B15 to Drew Street/Linden Boulevard and establish a new route between East Flatbush/Brownsville and JFK.

Keep in mind thats the only route that goes to an airport in brooklyn. People also work there so they would need that bus and if it serves several areas you can't force people to transfer and spend more when they already have a route that is just one ride. If anything before the 15 goes select I would have the 15 have a sbs route then have the local end around the east new york area. 

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1 hour ago, Brillant93 said:

Keep in mind thats the only route that goes to an airport in brooklyn. People also work there so they would need that bus and if it serves several areas you can't force people to transfer and spend more when they already have a route that is just one ride. If anything before the 15 goes select I would have the 15 have a sbs route then have the local end around the east new york area. 

Yes I agree with this. Almost like the B6 in a way, the Limiteds go to ENY while the locals terminate at Rockaway (L). 

Maybe have the local run to New Lots and Fountain? Then turn around right by Dumont? That way you'll have the limited/select making short distance but limited stops along Linden and then whatever is needed afterwards. It would only be stopping at major stops anways

Going towards the airport I would see the stops being...

-Woodhull Hosp.

-MGB/Lafayette 

-MGB/Gates

-MGB/Halsey

-MGB/Fulton

right on Fulton, left on Albany, left on Atlantic 

(should run on Atlantic instead of Dean)

-Atlantic/Utica

Right on Ralph

-Ralph/Eastern

-Ralph/Sutter (3) 

-E98/Church 

-Hegeman/Rockaway

-New Lots/ (L) train

(Now....I would personally say put the Select on Linden Blvd to avoid New Lots and its BS, but this is up for debate)

after the (L) stop, via New Lots, right on Alabama, left on Linden.

-Linden/Pennsylvania 

-Linden/Van Siclen

-Linden/Ashford

-Linden/Fountain 

-Linden/Eldert

-Linden/78th

-AirTrain Station 

all stops after the AirTrain station, but get rid of 130/Hangar Road Stop20.

 

Going towards the Hospital the same stops and current route from Airport to Linden/Pennsylvania, and then via Linden, into service road after Malta, right on Louisiana into Williams, left on New Lots to (L) train. Same route and stops until Ralph/Eastern Pkwy. Then via Ralph, left on Atlantic.

-Atlantic/Utica 

-Troy/Fulton

-Lewis/Halsey

-Lewis/Gates 

-Lewis/DeKalb

-Woodhull Hosp 

Edited by XcelsiorBoii4888
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12 minutes ago, XcelsiorBoii4888 said:

Yes I agree with this. Almost like the B6 in a way, the Limiteds go to ENY while the locals terminate at Rockaway (L). 

Maybe have the local run to New Lots and Fountain? Then turn around right by Dumont? That way you'll have the limited/select making short distance but limited stops along Linden and then whatever is needed afterwards. It would only be stopping at major stops anways

Going towards the airport I would see the stops being...

-Woodhull Hosp.

-MGB/Lafayette 

-MGB/Gates

-MGB/Halsey

-MGB/Fulton

right on Fulton, left on Albany, left on Atlantic*

(should run on Atlantic instead of Dean)

-Atlantic/Utica

Right on Ralph

-Ralph/Eastern

-Ralph/Sutter (3) 

-E98/Church 

-Hegeman/Rockaway

-New Lots/ (L) train

(Now....I would personally say put the Select on Linden Blvd to avoid New Lots and its BS, but this is up for debate)

after the (L) stop, via New Lots, right on Alabama, left on Linden.

-Linden/Pennsylvania 

-Linden/Van Siclen

-Linden/Ashford

-Linden/Fountain 

-Linden/Eldert

-Linden/78th

-AirTrain Station 

all stops after the AirTrain station, but get rid of 130/Hangar Road Stop20.

 

Going towards the Hospital the same stops and current route from Airport to Linden/Pennsylvania, and then via Linden, into service road after Malta, right on Louisiana into Williams, left on New Lots to (L) train. Same route and stops until Ralph/Eastern Pkwy. Then via Ralph, left on Atlantic.

-Atlantic/Utica 

-Troy/Fulton

-Lewis/Halsey

-Lewis/Gates 

-Lewis/DeKalb

-Woodhull Hosp 

You beat me to this. However, this was about the same thing I was thinking.

However, I see a slight issue with highlighted portion.. I would have that run up Albany to Eastern Parkway to Ralph heading towards the airport.

I'm in full agreement with the rest of the route. 

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11 hours ago, lara8710 said:

For a route operating between Brooklyn and JFK, the B15 is VERY long and prone to bunching. Some would say it should be split into two routes, while others would argue it needs a LTD service (the latter of which I disagree with). What could be done to improve the route's reliability?

Splitting a long route might have worked with the M10/20 back in the late 90s and for the M5/55 recently, but I'm not sure if it'll work for the B15...

Breaking up the M5 (S. Ferry - GWB) into the M5 (Midtown - GWB) & the M55 I would argue hasn't exactly worked (out for the better).... The M55 is having trouble attracting riders that the M5 once had..... They should've left the M5 ending on Houston & restructured the M6 (rename it to the M55, whatever) to reflect the changes to the traffic patterns (or lack thereof... Lol) on Broadway....

-------------------------------------

As for the topic at hand, I'd say the B15 doesn't need a LTD because there's too much intermediate usage on the route.... At the same time, it doesn't need to be broken up into two (or more) routes, as riders tend to ride longer distances on it than average....

They have EB buses either terminating at the movie theater (Drew) or at JFK.... They got it right with lifting the short turns from the Brooklyn GMF, to Drew....

However, they're not implementing that same logic for the opposite end of the route..... Every WB/NB trip runs to Woodhull (from either Drew or JFK) & there is no need for that..... As long as that remains to be the case, you're gonna get what you get with the B15....

If you want my opinion, I would still have (any trips running) the full route, running b/w Woodhull & JFK..... As far as EB trips go, trips ending at Drew & at T5 would remain - (however, I would have more trips running to JFK over short turning at Drew).... As far as WB/NB trips go, there would be trips either ending at Woodhull, St. Johns, or Fulton... Something else I suppose that can be looked at, is taking buses off of Buffalo altogether (both directions) & having buses utilize more of Ralph instead....

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