BUS - Random Thoughts Thread

[trainfan22]

I rode 4985 home on the B42, for a 20 year old bus that bus in amazing shape. 4902-5104 are 1998 buses so they are 20 years old this year. A couple days ago 4930 was on the B42 and was filled to capacity, bus was keeled and struggled to get back up, driver was trying to get that bus back up for quite some time but it eventually did and off it went   

[BreeddekalbL]

Nicholas elias aka drizzy at it again he has a security poster out and was arrested cause he threatened the bus driver with a knife 

Edited February 24, 2018 by BreeddekalbL

[Trainmaster5]

I have a few questions about bus service in the outer boroughs and I figured that you folks could help me understand things a little better. For those who don't know me I'm an old Brooklynite who grew up in Brownsville and Flatbush way back in the 50's and 60's. Mass transit has always been my mode of transport around NYC. Started out with a bus/train pass in the sixth grade and I've been an explorer since then. My questions to you posters is what is the primary function of local bus routes? I'm not trying to be funny or anything but perhaps BrooklynBus or Interested Rider would understand my question a little better. When I grew up I always thought bus service had two functions. It took you to a shopping district like Pitkin Avenue, the Church and Flatbush area, Broadway under the el, or the big one in Downtown Brooklyn. Function two involved commuting.  I used to ride the B14 from Sutter Avenue to Utica-Eastern Parkway 5 days a week on my way to school. The bus intersected with the B60, B7, B12 and B10 traveling w/b. At Utica there were transfers to the B46 and the B17 as well as the IRT subway. I don't recall speed being a major function of that run. At Utica I'd transfer to a s/b B46 down to Clarkson or Winthrop St where my schools were located. Again speed wasn't an overriding concern. The n/b B46's served a different function as far as I could determine. Whether they originated at Avenue N, Avenue H, or Snyder Avenue those were rush hour runs to the subway. Heck, there was a bus dispatcher with a portable farebox located at Church Avenue who collected fares at the back door. Yeah, you SBS snobs are about sixty years too late with your offboard payment, lol. Met him one day when I tried my B35 to Utica experiment one morning. I recall B46's to Eastern Parkway, DeKalb, Bridge Plaza, and IIRC there was one or two to Fulton St. Again, speed did not appear to be a primary function. When I moved to Prospect-Lefferts and reversed my commute the only difference was I now took the B12 e/b from Parkside to Utica and East New York Avenue. Again speed did not appear to be a big factor. We picked up a few people at Nostrand heading for Kings County Hospital and then some commuters along Albany Avenue. Of course by that time my home was bracketed by the B41, B49, and B44 from west to east before Rogers and Nostrand became one-way. Here's where I begin to question the role of local bus service. The stops along Rogers and/or Nostrand were usually no more than three blocks apart. On adjacent bi-directional streets one would never have to travel too far in either direction to catch a bus. Obviously there weren't as many two car families back then so the bus stops were a convenience. From what some posters are complaining about it seems that they think the buses are making too many stops these days. Obviously there's been a sea change in what people think a bus is supposed to do. There's no one size fits all but , IMO, if you eliminate stops in an arbitrary manner ( every 5 blocks instead of 3 for example) bus ridership should automatically decline and it shouldn't be a surprise. As I pointed out earlier speed was never a major factor in bus usage back then. Convenience was. On the n/b B49 for example there might have been 5 stops between Winthrop St and Empire Blvd but normally a bus would stop twice. On a route with a local and a limited I could see the reasoning and both could coexist. On a street like Rogers with the B49 and the B44SBS if you stretch out the B49 stops the potential catchment area is decreased and the Camry or SUV gets cranked up because the convenience factor is eliminated. The city, the or the riders can't complain about congestion when it appears, at least to me, that the things you claim to want like decreased traffic and increased speed don't seem to have a middle ground. On one hand there's too much congestion and the buses creep along their routes meanwhile Joe and Jane Commuter are in a hurry and don't have the time to waste on slow buses or trains so they're gonna use their personal vehicle, a cab, or Uber/Lyft, to get around. Meanwhile bus ridership is tanking because it's slow ? Maybe it's a generational thing ? I really don't know. Those of us who grew up in Prospect-Lefferts in the 60's and 70's took the B41 bus to Downtown Brooklyn even though we had the Brighton Line and the Nostrand Avenue line within walking distance. It wasn't about speed. It's my personal opinion that it's the mismanagement of surface transportation, at least in Brooklyn, that's contributed to the reliability issues and the loss of potential ridership. Just my opinion though. Carry on.

[checkmatechamp13]

38 minutes ago, Trainmaster5 said:

I have a few questions about bus service in the outer boroughs and I figured that you folks could help me understand things a little better. For those who don't know me I'm an old Brooklynite who grew up in Brownsville and Flatbush way back in the 50's and 60's. Mass transit has always been my mode of transport around NYC. Started out with a bus/train pass in the sixth grade and I've been an explorer since then. My questions to you posters is what is the primary function of local bus routes? 

2

The thing is that those particular areas, there was/is subway service available for those who wanted to travel longer distances quickly. For those shorter-distance trips to connect to the subway, speed doesn't make as much of a difference compared to longer trips (If you travel one mile at 10 mph, it takes 6 minutes. If you travel at 20 mph, it takes 3 minutes). Compare that to a 10 mile trip across the borough, where 10 mph means it takes an hour, compared to only 30 minutes at 20 mph.

It's a helpless feeling to catch (for example) an S48 or S62 from the western end of Staten Island, only to hit a traffic jam and know you have 5-6 miles left before you reach the ferry and have no choice but to sit it out. Or even just getting a slow driver on the bus, knowing that the 10 minute cushion between the bus arrival and the ferry departure (which only runs every 30 minutes for most of the day) is slowly being eaten up. 

[EastFlatbushLarry]

5 hours ago, trainfan22 said:

I rode 4985 home on the B42, for a 20 year old bus that bus in amazing shape. 4902-5104 are 1998 buses so they are 20 years old this year. A couple days ago 4930 was on the B42 and was filled to capacity, bus was keeled and struggled to get back up, driver was trying to get that bus back up for quite some time but it eventually did and off it went   

The 4980's & 4990's that were or are currently at East NY Depot (I know 4997 is currently at Grand Avenue, for example) were always the RTS's that were well taken care of, almost to Quill standards. Any '98 RTS at East NY under bus #4945 is basically shite.

Edited February 24, 2018 by EastFlatbushLarry

[EastFlatbushLarry]

11 hours ago, paulrivera said:

I just reported a Bx21 B/O that flagged me with a NIS sign while having passengers on board. So instead of a simple 5 minute wait I had to wait 20 minutes because the following bus was late.

No f**king wonder everyone takes Uber now.

I'm not saying it's policy to throw up a NIS sign when told by a SLD/"Bus Time" dispatcher to "run light" or "drop off only"... But that could've been the case. Regardless, since you reported it, supervision will address it. The problem i have with customer complaints is that in this time of technology integrated with surface transit, there aren't too many "cowboy"  B/O's running around like the days of old. It's way too easy to get caught doing something you weren't instructed by an SLD or superintendent to do. I'm not saying customers should give a damn, but there's not a customer out here that ever considered "hey, MAYBE that bus that says 'NEXT BUS PLEASE'/'NOT IN SERVICE' was following instructions". People who have lived in this city and rode public transit their entire lives. Meanwhile, when trains bypass stations Not In Service, there isn't nearly as much scrutiny compared to surface transit because the natural assumption is that the train crew is within their full right to bypass stations... But that's another subject. "going off script" these days absolutely isn't worth it. When I started this job, there was such a thing as "adjusting yourself" in order to fall back or get back into place in order to maintain your lines headway. Those days are dead.

Edited February 24, 2018 by EastFlatbushLarry

[paulrivera]

52 minutes ago, EastFlatbushLarry said:

I'm not saying it's policy to throw up a NIS sign when told by a SLD/"Bus Time" dispatcher to "run light" or "drop off only"... But that could've been the case. Regardless, since you reported it, supervision will address it. The problem i have with customer complaints is that in this time of technology integrated with surface transit, there aren't too many "cowboy"  B/O's running around like the days of old. It's way too easy to get caught doing something you weren't instructed by an SLD or superintendent to do. I'm not saying customers should give a damn, but there's not a customer out here that ever considered "hey, MAYBE that bus that says 'NEXT BUS PLEASE'/'NOT IN SERVICE' was following instructions". People who have lived in this city and rode public transit their entire lives. Meanwhile, when trains bypass stations Not In Service, there isn't nearly as much scrutiny compared to surface transit because the natural assumption is that the train crew is within their full right to bypass stations... But that's another subject. "going off script" these days absolutely isn't worth it. When I started this job, there was such a thing as "adjusting yourself" in order to fall back or get back into place in order to maintain your lines headway. Those days are dead.

If there would have been a bus directly behind the bus that flagged me this wouldn't have even been an issue for me.

Much like when there's a battery run on the subway, 9 times out of 10 there's another train that will stop within the next 5 minutes or so. There wasn't another Bx21 for another 15 minutes after this bus flagged me:

15 minutes at the 2pm hour is about an interval and a half for the Bx21 by the way.

-This pic was taken at 2:16pm according to my phone.

-This stop was Morris Park/Seminole SB. 

-Tripplanner's Friday schedule for the Bx21 is as follows for this stop:

2:06, 2:17, 2:27, 2:37, 2:48, 2:55.

I wouldn't have reported it if the damn buses were bunching. I should know, I ride the Bx12 SBS quite often.

Edited February 24, 2018 by paulrivera

[EastFlatbushLarry]

24 minutes ago, paulrivera said:

If there would have been a bus directly behind the bus that flagged me this wouldn't have even been an issue for me.

Much like when there's a battery run on the subway, 9 times out of 10 there's another train that will stop within the next 5 minutes or so. There wasn't another Bx21 for another 15 minutes after this bus flagged me:

15 minutes at the 2pm hour is about an interval and a half for the Bx21 by the way.

-This pic was taken at 2:16pm according to my phone.

-This stop was Morris Park/Seminole SB. 

-Tripplanner's Friday schedule for the Bx21 is as follows for this stop:

2:06, 2:17, 2:27, 2:37, 2:48, 2:55.

I wouldn't have reported it if the damn buses were bunching. I should know, I ride the Bx12 SBS quite often.

Did you not state earlier that the following run was late, hence your 20 minute wait? If I'm mistaken, ok. If he flagged you at :16, the assumption could be that that was indeed the :17 bus. Did you get the run # to verify that that bus was indeed the daily scheduled bus run at :17? That could've also been a late run that was being adjusted. It's not out of the realm of possibility or reality. Not saying you're wrong, but as i said, in the technology age, i find it extremely difficult to believe a B/O will risk his job by deliberate flagging without direct orders.

Edited February 24, 2018 by EastFlatbushLarry

[EastFlatbushLarry]

25 minutes ago, paulrivera said:

If there would have been a bus directly behind the bus that flagged me this wouldn't have even been an issue for me.

Much like when there's a battery run on the subway, 9 times out of 10 there's another train that will stop within the next 5 minutes or so. There wasn't another Bx21 for another 15 minutes after this bus flagged me:

15 minutes at the 2pm hour is about an interval and a half for the Bx21 by the way.

-This pic was taken at 2:16pm according to my phone.

-This stop was Morris Park/Seminole SB. 

-Tripplanner's Friday schedule for the Bx21 is as follows for this stop:

2:06, 2:17, 2:27, 2:37, 2:48, 2:55.

I wouldn't have reported it if the damn buses were bunching. I should know, I ride the Bx12 SBS quite often.

There have been plenty of instances where I have been late and "Bus Time" shows ineptitude in adjusting me back to schedule until later in my run, be it a half hour or hour of being down. Just because a operator gets down, doesn't mean he/she is automatically adjusted.

Edited February 24, 2018 by EastFlatbushLarry

[bobtehpanda]

2 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

I have a few questions about bus service in the outer boroughs and I figured that you folks could help me understand things a little better. For those who don't know me I'm an old Brooklynite who grew up in Brownsville and Flatbush way back in the 50's and 60's. Mass transit has always been my mode of transport around NYC. Started out with a bus/train pass in the sixth grade and I've been an explorer since then. My questions to you posters is what is the primary function of local bus routes? I'm not trying to be funny or anything but perhaps BrooklynBus or Interested Rider would understand my question a little better. When I grew up I always thought bus service had two functions. It took you to a shopping district like Pitkin Avenue, the Church and Flatbush area, Broadway under the el, or the big one in Downtown Brooklyn. Function two involved commuting.  I used to ride the B14 from Sutter Avenue to Utica-Eastern Parkway 5 days a week on my way to school. The bus intersected with the B60, B7, B12 and B10 traveling w/b. At Utica there were transfers to the B46 and the B17 as well as the IRT subway. I don't recall speed being a major function of that run. At Utica I'd transfer to a s/b B46 down to Clarkson or Winthrop St where my schools were located. Again speed wasn't an overriding concern. The n/b B46's served a different function as far as I could determine. Whether they originated at Avenue N, Avenue H, or Snyder Avenue those were rush hour runs to the subway. Heck, there was a bus dispatcher with a portable farebox located at Church Avenue who collected fares at the back door. Yeah, you SBS snobs are about sixty years too late with your offboard payment, lol. Met him one day when I tried my B35 to Utica experiment one morning. I recall B46's to Eastern Parkway, DeKalb, Bridge Plaza, and IIRC there was one or two to Fulton St. Again, speed did not appear to be a primary function. When I moved to Prospect-Lefferts and reversed my commute the only difference was I now took the B12 e/b from Parkside to Utica and East New York Avenue. Again speed did not appear to be a big factor. We picked up a few people at Nostrand heading for Kings County Hospital and then some commuters along Albany Avenue. Of course by that time my home was bracketed by the B41, B49, and B44 from west to east before Rogers and Nostrand became one-way. Here's where I begin to question the role of local bus service. The stops along Rogers and/or Nostrand were usually no more than three blocks apart. On adjacent bi-directional streets one would never have to travel too far in either direction to catch a bus. Obviously there weren't as many two car families back then so the bus stops were a convenience. From what some posters are complaining about it seems that they think the buses are making too many stops these days. Obviously there's been a sea change in what people think a bus is supposed to do. There's no one size fits all but , IMO, if you eliminate stops in an arbitrary manner ( every 5 blocks instead of 3 for example) bus ridership should automatically decline and it shouldn't be a surprise. As I pointed out earlier speed was never a major factor in bus usage back then. Convenience was. On the n/b B49 for example there might have been 5 stops between Winthrop St and Empire Blvd but normally a bus would stop twice. On a route with a local and a limited I could see the reasoning and both could coexist. On a street like Rogers with the B49 and the B44SBS if you stretch out the B49 stops the potential catchment area is decreased and the Camry or SUV gets cranked up because the convenience factor is eliminated. The city, the or the riders can't complain about congestion when it appears, at least to me, that the things you claim to want like decreased traffic and increased speed don't seem to have a middle ground. On one hand there's too much congestion and the buses creep along their routes meanwhile Joe and Jane Commuter are in a hurry and don't have the time to waste on slow buses or trains so they're gonna use their personal vehicle, a cab, or Uber/Lyft, to get around. Meanwhile bus ridership is tanking because it's slow ? Maybe it's a generational thing ? I really don't know. Those of us who grew up in Prospect-Lefferts in the 60's and 70's took the B41 bus to Downtown Brooklyn even though we had the Brighton Line and the Nostrand Avenue line within walking distance. It wasn't about speed. It's my personal opinion that it's the mismanagement of surface transportation, at least in Brooklyn, that's contributed to the reliability issues and the loss of potential ridership. Just my opinion though. Carry on.

The major difference between the New York of back then and the one of today is that office and shopping patterns have changed, and that the bus network has not adapted well to the ways the city has grown. In the '50s the bus stopping every two blocks would've been acceptable if you're just going to the neighborhood shopping district or the closest subway station, but now that there are many jobs outside of Manhattan and the shops have centralized, it's less acceptable when someone is trying to go from their home in the Bronx to their job at LGA, or their home in Bed-Stuy to their job at JFK, or their home in Fresh Meadows to their job at Montefiore. A lot of growth has also happened in the outskirts that are not served by subways; it's crap to face an hour long subway commute and another half hour to 45 minutes on the bus. The bus system is terrible at serving these kinds of riders.

Bus speeds have also declined significantly; New York City buses are the slowest in the country these days (the two slowest agencies are NYCT and MTA Bus), and at this point average speed is 7MPH; the average person on a bicycle goes about 9.6MPH. You ask people what's wrong with the buses these days and they say it's too slow and it takes too long. That's because it does.

[paulrivera]

6 hours ago, EastFlatbushLarry said:

There have been plenty of instances where I have been late and "Bus Time" shows ineptitude in adjusting me back to schedule until later in my run, be it a half hour or hour of being down. Just because a operator gets down, doesn't mean he/she is automatically adjusted.

I can’t with your biased view...

Yes, the following bus showed up at about 2:30.

I got to the stop at about 2:10.

The bus flagged me at about 2:15.

Thats how my 5 minute wait became a 20 minute one. Other than a BxM10, no other bus showed within that timeframe.

i don’t know how clear and concise you want me to be.... I mean I can’t believe this happened also, but if it smells like a duck and talks like a duck, its not a damn mongoose.

[EastFlatbushLarry]

3 hours ago, paulrivera said:

I can’t with your biased view...

Yes, the following bus showed up at about 2:30.

I got to the stop at about 2:10.

The bus flagged me at about 2:15.

Thats how my 5 minute wait became a 20 minute one. Other than a BxM10, no other bus showed within that timeframe.

i don’t know how clear and concise you want me to be.... I mean I can’t believe this happened also, but if it smells like a duck and talks like a duck, its not a damn mongoose.

Biased view? Sir, I was a customer a long time, well before I became a Bus Operator of 9 years... Trust me, I don't forget where I come from. I'm biased, yet you refused to answer a basic question... Did you get the run # to verify that was indeed the :17 bus scheduled daily for that time. A question that if I asked customers such as my mother or to use other customers from this forum,  such as VG8, could've simply answered without questioning whether i was so called bias, one way or the other. You're not even considering that maybe I'm attempting to offer a sure shot way of identifying the problem and properly deduce what exactly is happening on the line. Funny thing is, a classmate of mine works the Bx21, and IINM that line suffers from lateness & bunching at various times of the day. It wouldn't have been a problem to find out exactly who was operating that run.. I've done it in the past for my own non-transit employee family members (and I've had access a ride operators written up quickly as well who have disrespected my grandmother.. I worked for Maggie's years ago.) See, sir? You NEVER know where help could've come from. But instead, like most customers, you assumed I was defending the B/O. I despise operators who deliberately inconvenience customers, and i swore when i was appointed, that i wouldn't be that irrational of a cunt. Right is right and wrong is wrong, IDGAF who, what, when, where, how or why, sir. "First get your facts straight, then you can distort them at your leisure". - Mark Twain

Edited February 24, 2018 by EastFlatbushLarry

[Trainmaster5]

9 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

The major difference between the New York of back then and the one of today is that office and shopping patterns have changed, and that the bus network has not adapted well to the ways the city has grown. In the '50s the bus stopping every two blocks would've been acceptable if you're just going to the neighborhood shopping district or the closest subway station, but now that there are many jobs outside of Manhattan and the shops have centralized, it's less acceptable when someone is trying to go from their home in the Bronx to their job at LGA, or their home in Bed-Stuy to their job at JFK, or their home in Fresh Meadows to their job at Montefiore. A lot of growth has also happened in the outskirts that are not served by subways; it's crap to face an hour long subway commute and another half hour to 45 minutes on the bus. The bus system is terrible at serving these kinds of riders.

Bus speeds have also declined significantly; New York City buses are the slowest in the country these days (the two slowest agencies are NYCT and MTA Bus), and at this point average speed is 7MPH; the average person on a bicycle goes about 9.6MPH. You ask people what's wrong with the buses these days and they say it's too slow and it takes too long. That's because it does.

Your first sentence happens to be what I'm trying to say. In my post the shopping districts I mentioned still exist but they've been supplemented by the Gateway Mall, the Georgetown shopping district and the Kings Plaza mall among others. They all can be reached by bus and by auto. By my definition none of them, the old or the new, would be considered neighborhood shopping districts so I'm unsure of your point there. Your point about the jobs being outside of Manhattan rings a bell with me. Mom commuted by bus and train from Brownsville, and later Flatbush, to the DOD located in the Brooklyn Navy Yard. My father commuted from Flatbush to the Hub post office in the Bronx by subway. My uncles traveled from St. Albans and South Ozone Park, respectively, for years by bus and subway to the Brooklyn waterfront docks. This is not a new trend in my experience. Long distance commutes aren't new. My late father-in-law commuted from Bed-Stuy and later, South Ozone Park, to Jersey City 5 days a week by bus and the Hudson Tubes (PATH). I also concur that bus speed in NYC is abysmal which is why I emphasized the speed factor so many times in my original post. I've seen posts about speeding up bus travel that are all over the place. I happen to think the local bus network, especially in the outer boroughs, needs a complete overhaul. Maybe real BRT, a combo with the Tri-boro rail proposal(s), whatever. I don't pretend to know how this will all turn out but I think we can discuss it in a civil manner on this forum. As an aside to all my Brooklyn folks I didn't forget the shopping district at Broadway, Flushing, and Graham Avenues under the El. We all know why the B46SBS doesn't run past there to Bridge Plaza don't we ? I'm well aware of the long range game with SBS and articulated busing. Why run 5 or 6 regular buses when I can run 3 articulated ones under the SBS banner. Stops removed, buses sped up on the remaining runs, B/O personnel reduced by attrition, labor costs, medical costs, and pension costs reduced over the years. What's not to like ? The problem is that today's commuters and casual riders are suffering now. I look at NE and SE Queens and shake my head. Even if bus service is improved in some locations the rider is dumped at an equally poor subway line. What and where is the comprehensive plan is what I'm getting at. Right now it's like a jigsaw puzzle with missing pieces IMO. Meanwhile the city, state, and the pray that the Jetsons become a reality soon rather than a cartoon. That way they don't have to take any action or responsibility. Just my opinion and thoughts. Carry on.

[paulrivera]

37 minutes ago, EastFlatbushLarry said:

Biased view? Sir, I was a customer a long time, well before I became a Bus Operator of 9 years... Trust me, I don't forget where I come from. I'm biased, yet you refused to answer a basic question... Did you get the run # to verify that was indeed the :17 bus scheduled daily for that time. A question that if I asked customers such as my mother or to use other customers from this forum,  such as VG8, could've simply answered without questioning whether i was so called bias, one way or the other. You're not even considering that maybe I'm attempting to offer a sure shot way of identifying the problem and properly deduce what exactly is happening on the line. Funny thing is, a classmate of mine works the Bx21, and IINM that line suffers from lateness & bunching at various times of the day. It wouldn't have been a problem to find out exactly who was operating that run.. I've done it in the past for my own non-transit employee family members (and I've had access a ride operators written up quickly as well who have disrespected my grandmother.. I worked for Maggie's years ago.) See, sir? You NEVER know where help could've come from. But instead, like most customers, you assumed I was defending the B/O. I despise operators who deliberately inconvenience customers, and i swore when i was appointed, that i wouldn't be that irrational of a cunt. Right is right and wrong is wrong, IDGAF who, what, when, where, how or why, sir. "First get your facts straight, then you can distort them at your leisure". - Mark Twain

Ahh...

Felt like you were feeding around the bush for a second...

No I didn’t get the run number. I did get a unit number tho... 704. I usually don’t look at the run numbers because I assume the B/O is going to either do their job and stop or if they’re truly NIS I assume the bus is empty without any passengers.

Another thing I thought of was that maybe it was a Bx8 or Bx31 on detour, but I doubt it since there weren’t any other 8’s or 31’s running any detours.

Edited February 24, 2018 by paulrivera

[bobtehpanda]

1 hour ago, Trainmaster5 said:

Your first sentence happens to be what I'm trying to say. In my post the shopping districts I mentioned still exist but they've been supplemented by the Gateway Mall, the Georgetown shopping district and the Kings Plaza mall among others. They all can be reached by bus and by auto. By my definition none of them, the old or the new, would be considered neighborhood shopping districts so I'm unsure of your point there. Your point about the jobs being outside of Manhattan rings a bell with me. Mom commuted by bus and train from Brownsville, and later Flatbush, to the DOD located in the Brooklyn Navy Yard. My father commuted from Flatbush to the Hub post office in the Bronx by subway. My uncles traveled from St. Albans and South Ozone Park, respectively, for years by bus and subway to the Brooklyn waterfront docks. This is not a new trend in my experience. Long distance commutes aren't new. My late father-in-law commuted from Bed-Stuy and later, South Ozone Park, to Jersey City 5 days a week by bus and the Hudson Tubes (PATH). I also concur that bus speed in NYC is abysmal which is why I emphasized the speed factor so many times in my original post. I've seen posts about speeding up bus travel that are all over the place. I happen to think the local bus network, especially in the outer boroughs, needs a complete overhaul. Maybe real BRT, a combo with the Tri-boro rail proposal(s), whatever. I don't pretend to know how this will all turn out but I think we can discuss it in a civil manner on this forum. As an aside to all my Brooklyn folks I didn't forget the shopping district at Broadway, Flushing, and Graham Avenues under the El. We all know why the B46SBS doesn't run past there to Bridge Plaza don't we ? I'm well aware of the long range game with SBS and articulated busing. Why run 5 or 6 regular buses when I can run 3 articulated ones under the SBS banner. Stops removed, buses sped up on the remaining runs, B/O personnel reduced by attrition, labor costs, medical costs, and pension costs reduced over the years. What's not to like ? The problem is that today's commuters and casual riders are suffering now. I look at NE and SE Queens and shake my head. Even if bus service is improved in some locations the rider is dumped at an equally poor subway line. What and where is the comprehensive plan is what I'm getting at. Right now it's like a jigsaw puzzle with missing pieces IMO. Meanwhile the city, state, and the pray that the Jetsons become a reality soon rather than a cartoon. That way they don't have to take any action or responsibility. Just my opinion and thoughts. Carry on.

Okay, I thought you were saying that the slowness was a feature not a bug.

The problem is that a lot of the new outer borough jobs hubs are not directly on the subway, or not on an express stop, or all the way at the end of the line. Queens Center Mall, LGA, JFK, Montefiore, Forhdam U, are hard to get to. Queens just has extremely poor subway service.

I agree that there needs to be comprehensive network planning, with the subway first, BRT/bus second. But we need adults willing to make hard decisions at the top, emphasis on the plural. Byford can show up here with good intentions but at the end of the day, Cuomo can sack him or BDB can refuse to work with him or whatever.

[B35 via Church]

14 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

I have a few questions about bus service in the outer boroughs and I figured that you folks could help me understand things a little better. For those who don't know me I'm an old Brooklynite who grew up in Brownsville and Flatbush way back in the 50's and 60's. Mass transit has always been my mode of transport around NYC. Started out with a bus/train pass in the sixth grade and I've been an explorer since then. My questions to you posters is what is the primary function of local bus routes? I'm not trying to be funny or anything but perhaps BrooklynBus or Interested Rider would understand my question a little better. When I grew up I always thought bus service had two functions. It took you to a shopping district like Pitkin Avenue, the Church and Flatbush area, Broadway under the el, or the big one in Downtown Brooklyn. Function two involved commuting.  I used to ride the B14 from Sutter Avenue to Utica-Eastern Parkway 5 days a week on my way to school. The bus intersected with the B60, B7, B12 and B10 traveling w/b. At Utica there were transfers to the B46 and the B17 as well as the IRT subway. I don't recall speed being a major function of that run. At Utica I'd transfer to a s/b B46 down to Clarkson or Winthrop St where my schools were located. Again speed wasn't an overriding concern. The n/b B46's served a different function as far as I could determine. Whether they originated at Avenue N, Avenue H, or Snyder Avenue those were rush hour runs to the subway. Heck, there was a bus dispatcher with a portable farebox located at Church Avenue who collected fares at the back door. Yeah, you SBS snobs are about sixty years too late with your offboard payment, lol. Met him one day when I tried my B35 to Utica experiment one morning. I recall B46's to Eastern Parkway, DeKalb, Bridge Plaza, and IIRC there was one or two to Fulton St. Again, speed did not appear to be a primary function. When I moved to Prospect-Lefferts and reversed my commute the only difference was I now took the B12 e/b from Parkside to Utica and East New York Avenue. Again speed did not appear to be a big factor. We picked up a few people at Nostrand heading for Kings County Hospital and then some commuters along Albany Avenue. Of course by that time my home was bracketed by the B41, B49, and B44 from west to east before Rogers and Nostrand became one-way. Here's where I begin to question the role of local bus service. The stops along Rogers and/or Nostrand were usually no more than three blocks apart. On adjacent bi-directional streets one would never have to travel too far in either direction to catch a bus. Obviously there weren't as many two car families back then so the bus stops were a convenience. From what some posters are complaining about it seems that they think the buses are making too many stops these days. Obviously there's been a sea change in what people think a bus is supposed to do. There's no one size fits all but , IMO, if you eliminate stops in an arbitrary manner ( every 5 blocks instead of 3 for example) bus ridership should automatically decline and it shouldn't be a surprise. As I pointed out earlier speed was never a major factor in bus usage back then. Convenience was. On the n/b B49 for example there might have been 5 stops between Winthrop St and Empire Blvd but normally a bus would stop twice. On a route with a local and a limited I could see the reasoning and both could coexist. On a street like Rogers with the B49 and the B44SBS if you stretch out the B49 stops the potential catchment area is decreased and the Camry or SUV gets cranked up because the convenience factor is eliminated. The city, the or the riders can't complain about congestion when it appears, at least to me, that the things you claim to want like decreased traffic and increased speed don't seem to have a middle ground. On one hand there's too much congestion and the buses creep along their routes meanwhile Joe and Jane Commuter are in a hurry and don't have the time to waste on slow buses or trains so they're gonna use their personal vehicle, a cab, or Uber/Lyft, to get around. Meanwhile bus ridership is tanking because it's slow ? Maybe it's a generational thing ? I really don't know. Those of us who grew up in Prospect-Lefferts in the 60's and 70's took the B41 bus to Downtown Brooklyn even though we had the Brighton Line and the Nostrand Avenue line within walking distance. It wasn't about speed. It's my personal opinion that it's the mismanagement of surface transportation, at least in Brooklyn, that's contributed to the reliability issues and the loss of potential ridership. Just my opinion though. Carry on.

The role of bus service nowadays is to bring people back & forth from the subway & for SI, it's to bring people back & forth from the ferry or the subway..... That is it.... I don't think I can be anymore blunt than that..... It is definitely generational....

What you're bringing up at the end there is the circular argument... There's more congestion, as there's more cars on the road... There's more cars on the road because the buses are slow... The buses are slow because there's more congestion.... I've never really subscribed to trying to get people out of their cars (a la, the creation of a transit utopia... like this one dude that used to frequent these parts advocated for.... I forgot that dude's name, Brooklyn *something*), but at the same time, every tom, dick, and HARRY (what's up? ) don't need to be in their cars either.... Instead of a happy medium, many have simply given up on public transportation in this city......

Being completely honest, I would very likely be in that boat too if I didn't have this as an interest & hobby..... I went from the guy who had his car sit in the family garage in a whole 'nother neighborhood for almost 4 years (while I was working in Manhattan), to driving once a week (when we got shifted out to frickin Mineola), to driving 3 out the 5 (or 6, if I came in on saturdays) days a week, to driving to/from work everyday now..... Thank the LIRR (the service & the whiny ass Islander fans (mainly the former)... the main line, main-ly sucks [I don't have to tell you all about that, I'm sure you know the half... Lol]), the B12 & the growing inconsistencies on that route, and my refusal to ever embark upon a NICE bus, for it all.....

I want to see transit flourish in this city, but apparently the MTA has other plans...... I may be one man that attack like a pack of piranhas, but I can't conquer the Atlantic Ocean.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

2 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

The role of bus service nowadays is to bring people back & forth from the subway & for SI, it's to bring people back & forth from the ferry or the subway..... That is it.... I don't think I can be anymore blunt than that..... It is definitely generational....

What you're bringing up at the end there is the circular argument... There's more congestion, as there's more cars on the road... There's more cars on the road because the buses are slow... The buses are slow because there's more congestion.... I've never really subscribed to trying to get people out of their cars (a la, the creation of a transit utopia... like this one dude that used to frequent these parts advocated for.... I forgot that dude's name, Brooklyn *something*), but at the same time, every tom, dick, and HARRY (what's up? ) don't need to be in their cars either.... Instead of a happy medium, many have simply given up on public transportation in this city......

Being completely honest, I would very likely be in that boat too if I didn't have this as an interest & hobby..... I went from the guy who had his car sit in the family garage in a whole 'nother neighborhood for almost 4 years (while I was working in Manhattan), to driving once a week (when we got shifted out to frickin Mineola), to driving 3 out the 5 (or 6, if I came in on saturdays) days a week, to driving to/from work everyday now..... Thank the LIRR (the service & the whiny ass Islander fans (mainly the former)... the main line, main-ly sucks [I don't have to tell you all about that, I'm sure you know the half... Lol]), the B12 & the growing inconsistencies on that route, and my refusal to ever embark upon a NICE bus, for it all.....

I want to see transit flourish in this city, but apparently the MTA has other plans...... I may be one man that attack like a pack of piranhas, but I can't conquer the Atlantic Ocean.

I'll add one word to your comment... Bring people back and forth SLOWLY... What's infuriating to me is there is no longer a schedule. Eveeybody comes late or early most of the time now. I waited almost 20 minutes last night for the BxM2. What was he doing? Sitting at the terminal BS-ing. He didn't come to the first stop until almost 20:20. Nice guy, buy if operators are so fixated on not coming early and they come that late, trips will continue to take longer and longer and longer.

[AlgorithmOfTruth]

Does anyone here know if B/O's doing Q31 trips head straight out of Casey Stengel bus depot and start their runs in Bayside at Francis Lewis Boulevard and 27th Avenue? I've seen buses heading east on Northern Boulevard making a left turn on Utopia Parkway for years. Their destination still remains a mystery to me.

Edited February 25, 2018 by AlgorithmOfTruth

[JubaionBx12+SBS]

Has the Bx41 SBS seen any action with 5468 and 5476 yet? Also, what will it take for the masses to learn that the Bx5 runs to Bay Plaza on weekends? It seems like a well kept secret given the ridership patterns from Bay Plaza to Pelham Bay.

[Trainmaster5]

On 2/24/2018 at 3:31 PM, B35 via Church said:

The role of bus service nowadays is to bring people back & forth from the subway & for SI, it's to bring people back & forth from the ferry or the subway..... That is it.... I don't think I can be anymore blunt than that..... It is definitely generational....

What you're bringing up at the end there is the circular argument... There's more congestion, as there's more cars on the road... There's more cars on the road because the buses are slow... The buses are slow because there's more congestion.... I've never really subscribed to trying to get people out of their cars (a la, the creation of a transit utopia... like this one dude that used to frequent these parts advocated for.... I forgot that dude's name, Brooklyn *something*), but at the same time, every tom, dick, and HARRY (what's up? ) don't need to be in their cars either.... Instead of a happy medium, many have simply given up on public transportation in this city......

Being completely honest, I would very likely be in that boat too if I didn't have this as an interest & hobby..... I went from the guy who had his car sit in the family garage in a whole 'nother neighborhood for almost 4 years (while I was working in Manhattan), to driving once a week (when we got shifted out to frickin Mineola), to driving 3 out the 5 (or 6, if I came in on saturdays) days a week, to driving to/from work everyday now..... Thank the LIRR (the service & the whiny ass Islander fans (mainly the former)... the main line, main-ly sucks [I don't have to tell you all about that, I'm sure you know the half... Lol]), the B12 & the growing inconsistencies on that route, and my refusal to ever embark upon a NICE bus, for it all.....

I want to see transit flourish in this city, but apparently the MTA has other plans...... I may be one man that attack like a pack of piranhas, but I can't conquer the Atlantic Ocean.

Gotta agree with you on the generational differences. I base my thoughts on experience mixing those and what I was taught by people who had a different perspective. I had a conversation with a poster who is focused on the commuter/worker situation. I'm trying to make sense of the increased subway ridership yet the decrease in the surface use. In it's simplest form shouldn't they be interrelated?  I don't know how the bus statistics were compiled,  daily,  hourly,  combined,  I have no idea.  Are these stats or from somewhere else?  I'm always distrustful of stats from personal experience.  Everyone seems to be focused on the commuter thing obviously but a casual rider and observer like me wants to know more about the stats. I mentioned that some bus routes weren't created as feeders to the subway or Els. Look at the old el, subway or bus maps. Sure you had Park Row, City Hall,  South Ferry,  and the Financial District stops. You also had Fordham Road, the Hub,  34th Street Herald Square,  and Union Square,  and Downtown Brooklyn, places where bus ridership compared favorably with the rail ridership. Casual riders,  shoppers.  I'm trying to make sense of the loss of bus ridership to these places with the population increase in the area overall and the increased subway ridership. Did these people stop traveling and shopping?  I've been with Amazon since the 90s but ain't that many young folks gonna give up hanging out in the shopping districts from what I've seen. The people I see on Jamaica Avenue or Downtown Brooklyn weren't teleported and doubt they all came by car. That crowd hanging out on Jamaica Avenue didn't walk from Laurelton either.  Just wondering so I figured I'd ask for your perspective. You're observant and don't come across as someone who has an agenda.  Unlike that Brooklyn person from the past😀

[LegoBrickBreaker101]

1 hour ago, JubaionBx12+SBS said:

Has the Bx41 SBS seen any action with 5468 and 5476 yet? Also, what will it take for the masses to learn that the Bx5 runs to Bay Plaza on weekends? It seems like a well kept secret given the ridership patterns from Bay Plaza to Pelham Bay.

5476 ran on the Bx41 SBS last week, I'm sure 5468 has at some point. They seem to be sticking to the Bx12 SBS though.

[AlgorithmOfTruth]

In an effort to improve spacing between buses/even out headways, has the MTA considered strategically delaying trips at bus stops? This might eliminate bunching of buses as the B/O ahead of you would have a lead you could never catch up to.

[paulrivera]

8 minutes ago, AlgorithmOfTruth said:

In an effort to improve spacing between buses/even out headways, has the MTA considered strategically delaying trips at bus stops? This might eliminate bunching of buses as the B/O ahead of you would have a lead you could never catch up to.

They do (or at least they did) on occasion. Usually a dispatcher on a computer from a remote "Bustime bunker" would radio a bus and tell them to wait xx minutes.

4 hours ago, LegoBrickBreaker101 said:

5476 ran on the Bx41 SBS last week, I'm sure 5468 has at some point. They seem to be sticking to the Bx12 SBS though.

On a scale of 1-10, the heating system on these buses are an 11 out of 10. I hope and pray that in the summer the air conditioning is also an 11 out of 10.

Edited February 26, 2018 by paulrivera

[AlgorithmOfTruth]

2 minutes ago, paulrivera said:

They do (or at least they did) on occasion. Usually a dispatcher on a computer from a remote "Bustime bunker" would radio a bus and tell them to wait xx minutes.

Interesting; I wonder if it's effective enough to be considered more seriously. Also, are all trips monitored remotely from a command post 24/7? I hypothesize the answer is "no."

[EastFlatbushLarry]

On 2/25/2018 at 3:00 AM, AlgorithmOfTruth said:

Does anyone here know if B/O's doing Q31 trips head straight out of Casey Stengel bus depot and start their runs in Bayside at Francis Lewis Boulevard and 27th Avenue? I've seen buses heading east on Northern Boulevard making a left turn on Utopia Parkway for years. Their destination still remains a mystery to me.

IINM that is the sanctioned MTA pull-out/run on for the Q31 at Bayside. I've known Stengel operators that have also taken that route to pull out for the Q13/16 (at Fort Totten) the Q28 and believe it or not, the Q15/15A. Also, not all pull-outs from Stengel (add College Point & LaGuardia to this explanation) start at the northern terminal. Stengel utilizes the Van Wyck to get to Jamaica for the Q31(sanctioned run on route) All routes in NYCTA/MaBSTOA & Bus Company have sanctioned,  predetermined pull-out routing for all routes from the routes current depot to both the routes terminals. In some instances, if you are pulling out a bus in passenger service, it would rarely happen that your paddle would say, pull out from Flatbush Depot and run on to Williamsburg Bridge Plaza for the B46 or from East NY Depot to Coney Island for the B82, but it can & does happen. Jackie Gleason does it for the B8 & B35 in Brownsville daily.