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BUS - Random Thoughts Thread


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56 minutes ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

I always felt like the Manhattan bus system was a big mess, more so with the N/S routes than the crosstown routes. I feel like there is a lot of redundancy as well as routes covering too much ground. When these routes were being planned I wonder who thought it was a good idea to have long drawn out routes that cover over half the distance of Manhattan itself.  And the fact that very little has been changed with the bus system within the last 30 years shows how much concern the MTA has. I think the MTA has the mentality of “as long as the route works it’s fine” even though the entire bus system needs a “good” redesign to better serve today’s ridership patterns. 

To that very first statement, Central Park has a lot to do with it.... Generally speaking, the crosstown routes complement the subway system, whereas the north-south routes do not.... This is one reason why you have routes running from either Harlem and/or Washington Heights, to (at least) Midtown Manhattan due south.... Stubbing/splitting all (or most) of the north-south routes somewhere between Central Park south & Central Park north, simply won't fly for the northern splits of the routes (patronage-wise).... As far as the network goes, what we have now is more or less what you're gonna get with a grid network that has a 2½ mile long by a ½-mile wide land mass situated smack in the middle of the borough - with 2 CBD's on one end of the borough & the other end of the borough being highly residential, on top of it....

As far as the redundancy, that also ties into the fact that the north-south routes doesn't complement the subway... Matter of fact, they tend to mimic subway lines (don't confuse that with supplementation) & the 5th/Madison routes is a good example of it.... Look at how the routes M1-M4 branch out, north of 110th - M1 continues along 5th/Madison, M2 connects Powell to the 5th/Madison trunk, etc... You get the idea.

I wouldn't say it's perfect as is, but I actually don't have that much of a problem with Manhattan's bus network (hell, especially compared to the other boroughs)... The 2 hour long runtimes gotta go - but at the same time, you start truncating too many of those routes & you're pretty much begging for grossly inadequate service levels on each of them...

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3 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

@B35 via Church I'm a bit confused as to how the M1-M4 are good examples of mimicking the subway. I would've thought something more along the lines of how the M7 mimics the (3) train or the M10 mimics the CPW lines.

If it helps, replace "mimic" with "act as de facto" in that statement.... In any case, I wasn't trying to convey that the M1-M4 parallels a current subway line on 5th/Madison.

Edited by B35 via Church
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The Manhattan bus network is as old as time. You have to remember it was designed really by the FABCO and other individual operators in the 30s-50s, back when all the avenues were two-way and the 5th Ave buses went right up and down. Generally, if ain't broke, don't fix it – the MTA's efforts to mess with the original network have only made things worse over the years (i.e, ruining the M5, ruining the M1/M6, screwing up the M103, implementing the useless M55, messing up everything near Penn Station, etc.).

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9 minutes ago, MHV9218 said:

The Manhattan bus network is as old as time. You have to remember it was designed really by the FABCO and other individual operators in the 30s-50s, back when all the avenues were two-way and the 5th Ave buses went right up and down. Generally, if ain't broke, don't fix it – the MTA's efforts to mess with the original network have only made things worse over the years (i.e, ruining the M5, ruining the M1/M6, screwing up the M103, implementing the useless M55, messing up everything near Penn Station, etc.).

In my opinion, the crosstown routes are fine. Its some of the north to south routes that generally make zero sense (like the M55 and M101). 

IIRC, wasn't the M100 running artics last month? If so, whats the point of creating a brand new route instead of just having the M100 operate from 220th St to 149th St/The Hub?

Edited by Lawrence St
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28 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

In my opinion, the crosstown routes are fine. Its some of the north to south routes that generally make zero sense (like the M55 and M101). 

Both good examples fixing what wasn't broke – the M5 went Riverside-Greenwich Village from the 1940s or 1950s through 2010, then came the idiotic South Ferry extension that was doomed to fail, then instead of admitting their mistake they made it a complete waste of a route with the midtown cut-off, and the useless M55 gets to run parallel to the useless M12 uptown! And the M101 was originally a City Hall route, which made pretty decent sense before the 103 was created.

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52 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

In my opinion, the crosstown routes are fine. Its some of the north to south routes that generally make zero sense (like the M55 and M101). 

IIRC, wasn't the M100 running artics last month? If so, whats the point of creating a brand new route instead of just having the M100 operate from 220th St to 149th St/The Hub?

The M100 was using artic units because KB had many spare units freely available when bus service was severely cut down during the height of the pandemic in the city.

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2 hours ago, Kingsbridgeviewer382 said:

The M100 was using artic units because KB had many spare units freely available when bus service was severely cut down during the height of the pandemic in the city.

Isnt the Bx15's fleet suppose to be split between the Bx15 and the M125 now? 

The M100 can use those artics as well as additional 40 footers during rush hours.

2 hours ago, MHV9218 said:

Both good examples fixing what wasn't broke – the M5 went Riverside-Greenwich Village from the 1940s or 1950s through 2010, then came the idiotic South Ferry extension that was doomed to fail, then instead of admitting their mistake they made it a complete waste of a route with the midtown cut-off, and the useless M55 gets to run parallel to the useless M12 uptown! And the M101 was originally a City Hall route, which made pretty decent sense before the 103 was created.

The current M101 is a complete joke. Buses run an average of 10-20 minutes late because of how long the route is, along with horrible traffic along 125th St.

And just to show you how these some of these redesigns make no sense, the discontinuation of the Q53-SBS and yet the Q52-SBS gets to stay. How does this help commuters??

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58 minutes ago, MHV9218 said:

The Manhattan bus network is as old as time. You have to remember it was designed really by the FABCO and other individual operators in the 30s-50s, back when all the avenues were two-way and the 5th Ave buses went right up and down. Generally, if ain't broke, don't fix it – the MTA's efforts to mess with the original network have only made things worse over the years (i.e, ruining the M5, ruining the M1/M6, screwing up the M103, implementing the useless M55, messing up everything near Penn Station, etc.).

Yeah man, the M1 is a straight up afterthought now, south of the East Village.... Too many changes too frequency to the routing past that point... Creates doubt & instability in the minds of riders....

What were/are your thoughts on the M10 & the M104 truncations?

12 minutes ago, MHV9218 said:

Both good examples fixing what wasn't broke – the M5 went Riverside-Greenwich Village from the 1940s or 1950s through 2010, then came the idiotic South Ferry extension that was doomed to fail, then instead of admitting their mistake they made it a complete waste of a route with the midtown cut-off, and the useless M55 gets to run parallel to the useless M12 uptown! And the M101 was originally a City Hall route, which made pretty decent sense before the 103 was created.

Both [the M5 between South Ferry & GWB] & [the M101 between City Hall & Ft. George] were idiotic... They had to break down that old M101... Now how they went about doing it, is a different story.... The M103 was said to be created to increase reliability along 3rd/Lex, but to me, all it ended up doing was taking away from the M102.... Both the M101 & the M102 didn't have to be cut back to Astor.

Putting this another way, the same way they throw a ton of service on the M101, they could've done the same thing to the M102 & kept that route running to City Hall... Routing-wise, I don't have a problem with the thing (M103), but service-wise/reliability wise, it's a god damn joke... Don't know how many times I've waited for an M103 in Kips Bay/Murray Hill to get to the Bayard stop, to see a sea of M101's & M102's before I get fed up & walk over to 2nd for the M15 to get to Chatham Sq.... Basically, the M103 looks good on paper, but in actuality, runs like garbage.

The way the M6 was phased out was bullshit in & of itself, and its half-ass replacement (M55) is more of the same... The decision to run M5's to South Ferry (upon the M6's demise) the way I see it, was just plain lazy.... Compared to the M6, the M55 is a service cut (frequency-wise) & on top of it, its reach/catchment area was lessened.... They'll never admit that they shit the bed with the M5/M6/M55 ordeal.

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4 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

IIRC, wasn't the M100 running artics last month? If so, whats the point of creating a brand new route instead of just having the M100 operate from 220th St to 149th St/The Hub?

They've been sporadically throwing artics on the M100 back since (at least) the early 2010's....

As for that follow up question, realize that this M125 plan also has M100's cut back to Amsterdam/125th.... It's not a matter of fleet as to why they don't/won't have M100's running to The Bronx.... They *say* the creation of it, in part, is to "improve reliability".... Let's take that for face value.... Having Bx15's & M100's terminating at The Hub would defeat the purpose; a bus reaching E. Harlem from Inwood-220th via 125th is incomparable to a bus running between W. Harlem & The Hub...

Also, the current combination (frequency-wise) of M100's & Bx15's along 125th during the rush, is something like a bus every 4 mins..... The M125 proposal has buses running at a clip of about half that frequency <_<.... You'd also leave 125th west of Amsterdam with nothing but a (basically useless) M104 for Harlem/E. Harlem patrons.....

1 hour ago, Lawrence St said:

The current M101 is a complete joke. Buses run an average of 10-20 minutes late because of how long the route is, along with horrible traffic along 125th St.

Right.... Now imagine if it still went to City Hall.

Edited by B35 via Church
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@B35 via Church Actually they have the M100 terminating at 125th & Broadway. They (lazily) just posted the final plan as the final plan, but they posted a video on the Bronx redesign page that said that the express bus changes would be postponed, and the M100 would be extended to 125th & Broadway (they were trying to decide between Broadway & St. Nicholas). I went to a CB meeting and everyone (myself included) thought it was stupid to end right at Amsterdam.

The one slight upside is that there would be a connection between the (1) and CCNY. The vast majority of students would of course continue to walk up the hill from 137th but having the option of a bus would be nice.

 

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1 hour ago, B35 via Church said:

Too many changes too frequency to the routing past that point... Creates doubt & instability in the minds of riders....

....should read: "Too many changes too frequently...."

45 minutes ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

@B35 via Church Actually they have the M100 terminating at 125th & Broadway. They (lazily) just posted the final plan as the final plan, but they posted a video on the Bronx redesign page that said that the express bus changes would be postponed, and the M100 would be extended to 125th & Broadway (they were trying to decide between Broadway & St. Nicholas). I went to a CB meeting and everyone (myself included) thought it was stupid to end right at Amsterdam.

The one slight upside is that there would be a connection between the (1) and CCNY. The vast majority of students would of course continue to walk up the hill from 137th but having the option of a bus would be nice.

So the level of stupidity they decided on, boiled down to a lesser of two evils (ending smack at Amsterdam/125th vs Broadway/125th)...

Sure the (direct) subway connection is better than nothing, but who's supposed to be taking buses from points along Amsterdam, for a purpose of getting to 125th (1)? Nevermind how cumbersome getting to/from platform level at that station, compared to the other stations along the (1).... Given the topographical difference between St. Nich' & Amsterdam, they probably may have been better off neutering the thing where the short turn M3 ends... People along/around Amsterdam would be more likely to walk to Broadway for the subway, over St. Nich.... Matter of fact, the demand for 125th (A)(B)(C)(D) is greater than that for 125th (1)....

For all I care, they can keep this M125 bit... People will still be using M60's & M101's for traveling along & within 125th anyway... Dubbing the route M125 won't deter people from that (which is what I believe they think {or hope} will happen, upon the creation & implementation of this thing)....

 

Edited by B35 via Church
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@B35 via Church My main complaint was that they refused to consider any changes to the M101 in conjunction with the M100. I said I'm open to the idea (not necessarily in agreement with it, but open to it) of truncating the M100, but you cannot have the M101 be this long, drawn-out, unreliable route from the East Village to Washington Heights and then say "Oh well it is still an alternative for those traveling between 125th Street & Amsterdam Avenue" and "We'll get to it in the Manhattan redesign" (the second one was literally their answer, and when I said that's ridiculous they just nodded blankly...you know that psychotherapist type nod where they pretend they're paying attention but don't give a crap and you can see right through it)

So if they said that they would truncate the M101 to 125th & Lex, and make the M98 the full-time 3rd/Lex limited (or at least do something with the M103 or something until they can do the complete Manhattan redesign) I'd be OK with that. But instead they basically said riders are on their own until the Manhattan redesign.

And another thing about that CB meeting...it was the CB for West Harlem (I think CB6, not sure exactly offhand) and when I tried to bring up ideas for the Bx10 & Bx18 (you know...Bronx routes for this Bronx redesign) the planner cut me off and said that since it's out of the boundaries of that CB we wouldn't be discussing it (even though the CB board members had no problem with it...they just cut me off, said their good-byes and I literally had to chase them into the street where they continued to use the excuse of it being out of the CB boundaries as if I have nothing better to do with my time than chase them around CB meetings). And to top it off, when I brought up that I used to use the M100 as part of my commute to CCNY, she said "Well do you use it now?" as if 5 years of commuting makes my opinion meaningless just because I graduated one year prior...SMH...

I was so angry after that CB meeting that I emailed the planning team (Byford and all those higher-ups). I'm not normally the type of person to make a big complaint that can result in someone getting disciplined, but that was blatantly disrespectful. (I never got a response so I'm not sure what came of it. Most likely she got out of it by saying "It was a misunderstanding" or some nonsense)

Edited by checkmatechamp13
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22 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

They've been sporadically throwing artics on the M100 back since (at least) the early 2010's....

As for that follow up question, realize that this M125 plan also has M100's cut back to Amsterdam/125th.... It's not a matter of fleet as to why they don't/won't have M100's running to The Bronx.... They *say* the creation of it, in part, is to "improve reliability".... Let's take that for face value.... Having Bx15's & M100's terminating at The Hub would defeat the purpose; a bus reaching E. Harlem from Inwood-220th via 125th is incomparable to a bus running between W. Harlem & The Hub...

Also, the current combination (frequency-wise) of M100's & Bx15's along 125th during the rush, is something like a bus every 4 mins..... The M125 proposal has buses running at a clip of about half that frequency <_<.... You'd also leave 125th west of Amsterdam with nothing but a (basically useless) M104 for Harlem/E. Harlem patrons.....

 

What a way to f**k over everyone.

Honestly, branching off of the success that 14th Street had, they should've just made 125th a busway, between Broadway and Lexington (cut it short for Highway users), and have some sort of bus terminal in the area (M15, M103, M100, M35, some sort of M101 split). Would make life way easier for bus ops and passengers.

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3 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:

Just saw a B12 with a New York Avenue destination. How often is that short turn used?

Very rarely.... It's usually a response to some logistical severity (usually elsewhere along the B12 route)...

I used to get a kick out of being on a crushloaded bus that turned into a short turn mid-route (speaking of which) & seeing it fizzle out to about 5 or 6 ppl. left on it.... I get off at Albany/Clarkson, so it made no difference to me if the thing stops short at the western end of KCH.....

3 minutes ago, NBTA said:

What a way to f**k over everyone.

Honestly, branching off of the success that 14th Street had, they should've just made 125th a busway, between Broadway and Lexington (cut it short for Highway users), and have some sort of bus terminal in the area (M15, M103, M100, M35, some sort of M101 split). Would make life way easier for bus ops and passengers.

Ideally, I don't disagree - but at the same time, that would only reinforce the MTA's position for this (supposed) warranting of an M125.... It's no different than the MTA claiming success with the SBS routes, being that they did away with a couple stops (compared to the LTD's it replaced) & painted dedicated bus lanes for their use/benefit....

16 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

@B35 via Church My main complaint was that they refused to consider any changes to the M101 in conjunction with the M100. I said I'm open to the idea (not necessarily in agreement with it, but open to it) of truncating the M100, but you cannot have the M101 be this long, drawn-out, unreliable route from the East Village to Washington Heights and then say "Oh well it is still an alternative for those traveling between 125th Street & Amsterdam Avenue" and "We'll get to it in the Manhattan redesign" (the second one was literally their answer, and when I said that's ridiculous they just nodded blankly...you know that psychotherapist type nod where they pretend they're paying attention but don't give a crap and you can see right through it)

So if they said that they would truncate the M101 to 125th & Lex, and make the M98 the full-time 3rd/Lex limited (or at least do something with the M103 or something until they can do the complete Manhattan redesign) I'd be OK with that. But instead they basically said riders are on their own until the Manhattan redesign.

I wouldn't have even been open to it... People have to rely on these routes... I'm not even a daily M100 rider & I have to say it's a HARD pass for having that route stubbed to terminating at either 125th/Broadway or 125th/St. Nich'.... Neither of the two destinations are where the masses are trying to get along/around 125th.... It simply can not be argued that the M100 from terminal to terminal is more detrimental (reliability-wise) than the M101.... The way I see this apparent immunity/stubbornness when it comes to the current rendition of the M101 with the MTA, it's as if:

  1. The M100 portion of the route north of 125th is expendable/less of an importance to a routing that has buses running clear up Amsterdam from 125th to the end, and...
  2. As NewFlyer conveyed, as long as the route has the high amount of ridership that it does, leave it alone...

To the latter, more often than not, sure - but there's a little something called nuance that has to be considered also.... The thing (M101) simply does too much - and cutting it back from City Hall to Astor pl. is like someone with chickenpox draining a blackhead & concluding that to be a remedy for the damn chickenpox... Remedy & remedial are not the same thing :lol:

There's a couple of different ways 3rd/Lex service can be rectified (or, better allocated).... But this service pattern of having the M102/103 as locals & the M101 be this monstrous LTD (in terms of route length/runtime), with the M98 as a bastardized LTD to boot, is for the birds... Depending on how you set it up, you can easily justify having either (or even both, if you want to do away with the M98 & the M101) the M102 or M103 having LTD trips.....

Lol at riders are on their own until the Manhattan redesign - as if that's something that riders should be looking forward to.... As if the masses will be undeniably satisfied with what'll be proposed....

17 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

....And to top it off, when I brought up that I used to use the M100 as part of my commute to CCNY, she said "Well do you use it now?" as if 5 years of commuting makes my opinion meaningless just because I graduated one year prior.

Disgusting.

Curious though, what was your direct response to that, after she said that shit? I would have gave a flippant response to that..... So my defense of CURRENT M100 riders (I happen to know the stat off-top is in the 10k riders/weekday range, so throw that in there too) is irrelevant because I SINGULARLY no longer use the route? This is supposed to be PUBLIC transportation, right..... Something along those lines.

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@B35 via Church My agreement would be solely contingent on having the M101 get truncated to East Harlem. (Or for that matter, have the M101 run from Fort George-Manhattanville and leave the M100 running from Inwood-East Harlem)

For her question, I wish I came up with something snarkier, but I just said I don't see how that's relevant. She can't possibly commute (meaning actually commute, even if she were into busfanning/routefanning which I doubt) on every single route she is analyzing in the redesign so who is she to question my knowledge of a route I no longer use?

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6 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

So my defense of CURRENT M100 riders (I happen to know the stat off-top is in the 10k riders/weekday range, so throw that in there too) is irrelevant because I SINGULARLY no longer use the route? This is supposed to be PUBLIC transportation, right..... Something along those lines.

This is how you know they don't use it themselves.

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2 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

@B35 via Church My agreement would be solely contingent on having the M101 get truncated to East Harlem. (Or for that matter, have the M101 run from Fort George-Manhattanville and leave the M100 running from Inwood-East Harlem)

For her question, I wish I came up with something snarkier, but I just said I don't see how that's relevant. She can't possibly commute (meaning actually commute, even if she were into busfanning/routefanning which I doubt) on every single route she is analyzing in the redesign so who is she to question my knowledge of a route I no longer use?

I'd do away with the thing completely... It can easily be phased out.

Anyway, these are not just talking points I take time out to type on a forum... Lot of the stuff I say on here, I can say in "real time"... Her types would immediately write me off (like, with that *yeah, whatever* head nod you mentioned earlier), since I can use their own facts/data against them (without using a single expletive).... See, a lot of the numbers only/data analyst types never stop to (or care to) realize WHY those numbers are what they are.... Which segues perfectly to:

1 hour ago, Around the Horn said:

This is how you know they don't use it themselves.

Exactly.

Edited by B35 via Church
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6 hours ago, MysteriousBtrain said:

Speaking of, since it's obvious the implementation of the Bronx bus changes are delayed what would be a good estimate for the redesign changes to be in effect?

Possibly either January or April (I think that's the spring pick)

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If you're eating something, you may want to come back after you're done just in case.

So last night (well, technically early this morning, since it was past midnight) I was on the Q47 (bus 3584) going home after buying a few things. At 69th Street & Roosevelt Ave, some dude gets on the bus (presumably homeless). Anyway, the dude goes all the way to the back (I was in the last row, to the left and he took the rightmost seat). Anyway, not only does dude start putting some towel or something in the seat next to him, but he starts taking off his shoes, started picking his toes or something (IDK for sure, and IDC, but he was definitely touching his feet), and then starts placing his bare feet on the armrest, and eventually starts stretching himself onto the other seats in front of him, barefoot. He also placed his shoes on the seat beside him. Everybody (including me) left that back section as soon as we saw what was going on. It smelled a bit too so windows were being opened.

Since it was gonna difficult to get the B/Os attention, I reported it via Twitter, and got a relative quick response. They said they would alert road supervision, but I don't exactly know what they did, since I was getting off, and the bus doesn't make a return trip since it was the last bus towards Glendale, and that bus doesn't return to LGA in service. I hope that the bus got disinfected after it returned to the depot. IDK how long that process takes exactly, but if what I'm seeing is accurate, then said bus was out on the Q100 earlier (up to around 9:45 AM), so I don't know if said bus was disinfected, especially if it was on an earlier run. 

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1 hour ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

If you're eating something, you may want to come back after you're done just in case.

So last night (well, technically early this morning, since it was past midnight) I was on the Q47 (bus 3584) going home after buying a few things. At 69th Street & Roosevelt Ave, some dude gets on the bus (presumably homeless). Anyway, the dude goes all the way to the back (I was in the last row, to the left and he took the rightmost seat). Anyway, not only does dude start putting some towel or something in the seat next to him, but he starts taking off his shoes, started picking his toes or something (IDK for sure, and IDC, but he was definitely touching his feet), and then starts placing his bare feet on the armrest, and eventually starts stretching himself onto the other seats in front of him, barefoot. He also placed his shoes on the seat beside him. Everybody (including me) left that back section as soon as we saw what was going on. It smelled a bit too so windows were being opened.

Since it was gonna (be) difficult to get the B/Os attention, I reported it via Twitter, and got a relative quick response. They said they would alert road supervision, but I don't exactly know what they did, since I was getting off, and the bus doesn't make a return trip since it was the last bus towards Glendale, and that bus doesn't return to LGA in service. I hope that the bus got disinfected after it returned to the depot. IDK how long that process takes exactly, but if what I'm seeing is accurate, then said bus was out on the Q100 earlier (up to around 9:45 AM), so I don't know if said bus was disinfected, especially if it was on an earlier run. 

Yeah, the combination of no overnight subway service & free bus service has definitely shifted homeless folks into taking buses (as a means of killing time or whatever)....

If this situation happened around midnight or so & the bus first started service around 8 or 9am, that's enough time to disinfect & air everything out... Of course, this is assuming actual, and immediate action was taken....

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Rode the NJ Transit XD60 for first time today, and man they run circles around MTA XD60s. I was surprised at how fast and smooth they accelerate, reminded me of the first time I rode the then LIB 1700 Orions. 

 

Sound wise they sound like the NICE bus XN40s. It's funny, the newest MTA XD60s and the NJT units have the same powertrain (Cummins L9/Allison) yet they sound different. 

 

So for those who are disappointed that New Flyer XD buses are invading every bus operation in the Tri State, there's some variety when it comes to sound at the very least. 

 

The MTA XD60s do seem to handle pot holes better and such, NJT XD feel like they will end up being rattle traps soon.  

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