BUS - Random Thoughts Thread

[Lawrence St]

1 hour ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

All crosstowns north of Houston, except the M14, had different numbers. There was no rhyme or reason to the numbering scheme, although it may be based on when the routes began service or when they were labeled as such (someone else might know more about that). They were renumbered in the 1980s.

 

On corridors with two services or branches, one of them retained their former number. This is why routes like the M27 and M50 were numbered the way they were (both eliminated in 2010), as well as the M16, which was the last crosstown north of Houston with it's original number. The one exception to this is the existing M31, which was extended across 57th Street after the renumbering to replace another crosstown route. 

There's no longer an M50? Are you sure?

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

4 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

There's no longer an M50? Are you sure?

It should have said M30 instead of M50. Prior to the existence of the current M72, the route went up Broadway to serve West 72nd Street. 

Edited February 21, 2021 by BM5 via Woodhaven

[Q101viaSteinway]

10 hours ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

All crosstowns north of Houston, except the M14, had different numbers. There was no rhyme or reason to the numbering scheme, although it may be based on when the routes began service or when they were labeled as such (someone else might know more about that). They were renumbered in the 1980s.

 

On corridors with two services or branches, one of them retained their former number. This is why routes like the M27 and M50 were numbered the way they were (both eliminated in 2010), as well as the M16, which was the last crosstown north of Houston with it's original number. The one exception to this is the existing M31, which was extended across 57th Street after the renumbering to replace another crosstown route. 

Manhattan bus routes before MABSTOA had both a franchise number and route number given to them by Fifth Avenue Coach Company and NYC Omnibus.  NYC Omnibus route were numbered in the order that their streetcar line was dismantled for a bus line in the 1930s and the franchise number wasn't used. Fifth Avenue Coach routes had more than one official franchise number. After MABSTOA took over the private bus lines in Manhattan, the MTA did a renumbering of all Manhattan bus route in 1974. In the 1980s the MTA renumbered crosstown bus route again to coincide with street numbers. 

Edited February 21, 2021 by Q101viaSteinway

[Q43LTD]

6 hours ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

It should have said M30 instead of M50. Prior to the existence of the current M72, the route went up Broadway to serve West 72nd Street. 

The M30 went up Madison to get 72. It was basically a short turned M31

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

3 hours ago, Q43LTD said:

The M30 went up Madison to get 72. It was basically a short turned M31

On the east side, yes, and the version which was eliminated in 2010 operated between East 72nd Street/York Ave and West 57th Street/Broadway. Before the M72 was created though, the M30 also went up Broadway, then east on West 72nd Street. 

Edited February 21, 2021 by BM5 via Woodhaven

[Lawrence St]

I was looking at an old MTA bus map and noticed an (express bus?) numbered the BxY1. What was this? The old version of the BxM3?

[GojiMet86]

15 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

I was looking at an old MTA bus map and noticed an (express bus?) numbered the BxY1. What was this? The old version of the BxM3?

 

How old is the bus map? The 1995 NYCDOT shows the BxM3. Is there a link to it?

[paulrivera]

On 2/21/2021 at 4:44 PM, Lawrence St said:

I was looking at an old MTA bus map and noticed an (express bus?) numbered the BxY1. What was this? The old version of the BxM3?

 

On 2/21/2021 at 5:03 PM, GojiMet86 said:

 

How old is the bus map? The 1995 NYCDOT shows the BxM3. Is there a link to it?

The one route I can recall is the one NYCT used to operate, the X61. It was basically a downtown variant (and a competitor) of the BxM3, and a NYCT attempt to undermine riders from the BxM18 as well.

Only problem with it was that not many people along Broadway and Sedgwick Avenue in the Bronx work in Lower Manhattan, and the people that worked in Midtown were still taking the BxM3.

Needless to say the X61 didnt last too long.

Edited February 23, 2021 by paulrivera

[Via Garibaldi 8]

14 minutes ago, paulrivera said:

 

The one route I can recall is the one NYCT used to operate, the X61. It was basically a downtown variant (and a competitor) of the BxM3, and a NYCT attempt to undermine riders from the BxM18 as well.

Only problem with it was that not many people along Broadway and Sedgwick Avenue in the Bronx work in Lower Manhattan, and the people that worked in Midtown were still taking the BxM3.

Needless to say the X61 didnt last too long.

There are some along Broadway, but they tend to opt for the  train. 

[paulrivera]

2 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

There are some along Broadway, but they tend to opt for the  train. 

I bet once the  and  skip-stop service started, that was the death knell for the X61.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

6 minutes ago, paulrivera said:

I bet once the  and  skip-stop service started, that was the death knell for the X61.

Even the BxM18 doesn't do that well Downtown to be honest. Most of the usage is from the four Midtown stops.  Without the Midtown stops, the ridership wouldn't be enough to sustain that line.  Pre-COVID, I often had meetings in the mornings Downtown, so I would jump on the BxM18.  You get some transfers, but congestion has really killed some of the Downtown ridership, so it's become more Midtown. Don't get me wrong, there is still some Downtown ridership for sure. I'm a regular and have seen the same faces for a good 10 years, but it can be a long ride.  When I first moved to Riverdale, I used to see the Wall St trader types riding.  Now it's either the lawyers or others that work at firms or other businesses. The earlier buses in the mornings tend to have more Downtown ridership. Same is true at night. 

Since the BxM1 nor the BxM2 don't go south of 34th St, you get the Flatiron office folks as well at 29th/Madison/27th & 5th that use the BxM18.

Edited February 23, 2021 by Via Garibaldi 8

[R10 2952]

Wouldn't be surprised if the bulk of downtown ridership has been killed off by Vision Zero; I can understand side streets being limited to 25 mph or less, but the avenues? A step too far in my opinion.

Either that or send the express bus down the highway.  Whatever became of that proposal to send the BxM18 across the Henry Hudson Bridge and down the West Side Highway, anyway?

[Lawrence St]

Were JFK's 1999 D60's really in that much of a bad shape that NYCT had to loan them 100 buses to retire them until the XD60's came?

[MHV9218]

33 minutes ago, R10 2952 said:

Wouldn't be surprised if the bulk of downtown ridership has been killed off by Vision Zero; I can understand side streets being limited to 25 mph or less, but the avenues? A step too far in my opinion.

Either that or send the express bus down the highway.  Whatever became of that proposal to send the BxM18 across the Henry Hudson Bridge and down the West Side Highway, anyway?

Dunno, I'm not that moved by the speed limits on the avenues. 25mph = 30mph for ticketing. Traffic was pretty much never, ever doing more than 30mph in the past. Park was the only avenue where you could realistically get into the 40s (hypothetically, of course; I would never ever go more than the posted speed limit, officer), and that's passenger traffic only. 10th and 11th could be a speedway as well but again no buses there. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

33 minutes ago, R10 2952 said:

Wouldn't be surprised if the bulk of downtown ridership has been killed off by Vision Zero; I can understand side streets being limited to 25 mph or less, but the avenues? A step too far in my opinion.

Either that or send the express bus down the highway.  Whatever became of that proposal to send the BxM18 across the Henry Hudson Bridge and down the West Side Highway, anyway?

My advocacy group, which has many Riverdale riders, along with riders outside of my group (some that ride with me) and some that showed up to the Townhall meeting don't like that proposal. Sending it down the highway with no HOV lane is just as bad as sending it down the Deegan, not to mention the riders south of 34th St lose their service, as well as those that transfer. I made that abundantly clear to the when we met about the Bronx express bus proposals.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 hour ago, R10 2952 said:

Wouldn't be surprised if the bulk of downtown ridership has been killed off by Vision Zero; I can understand side streets being limited to 25 mph or less, but the avenues? A step too far in my opinion.

Either that or send the express bus down the highway.  Whatever became of that proposal to send the BxM18 across the Henry Hudson Bridge and down the West Side Highway, anyway?

The ridership was impacted because of the insane congestion along 5th and Madison up in Harlem. They need a bus lane on 5th that lasts longer than rush hour up in the 90s because the cars park there and sit in their cars to avoid the tickets and they block the bus lane - supposed to be no parking in the bus lane, but they do it anyway to grab a spot early. They ticket whoever they can, but they need a new strategy. On Madison there is no bus lane up by 125th, so that becomes a serious crawl with the congestion mainly from Ubers and regular drivers going over the Madison Bridge. DOT is very aware of the problem, as we have discussed it, but it takes time, and they need enough funding to do things like install cameras along 5th and install them on the buses. Some of the costs for that are split between them and the  .

 

[R10 2952]

37 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

My advocacy group, which has many Riverdale riders, along with riders outside of my group (some that ride with me) and some that showed up to the Townhall meeting don't like that proposal. Sending it down the highway with no HOV lane is just as bad as sending it down the Deegan, not to mention the riders south of 34th St lose their service, as well as those that transfer. I made that abundantly clear to the when we met about the Bronx express bus proposals.

In all fairness, even without an HOV lane, the West Side north of a certain point doesn't usually get as bad as the Major Deegan.

As to riders south of 34th, how exactly would it be affecting them if the bus is traveling along the northern part of the highway? Seems like it would actually get them to their destinations faster, especially if the bus doesn't have to take that meandering loop through Kappock and Johnson, or navigate that badly-coordinated asymmetrical intersection at 230th and Broadway. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 minute ago, R10 2952 said:

In all fairness, even without an HOV lane, the West Side north of a certain point doesn't usually get as bad as the Major Deegan.

As to riders south of 34th, how exactly would it be affecting them if the bus is traveling along the northern part of the highway? Seems like it would actually get them to their destinations faster, especially if the bus doesn't have to take that meandering loop through Kappock and Johnson, or navigate that badly-coordinated asymmetrical intersection at 230th and Broadway. 

There are a few problems with the proposal that I pointed out to them and I discussed with Mark Holmes and another senior planner in person. They wanted to create a "new market" by having the bus make stops in Inwood, then have it jump on the West Side Highway. I can tell you that I have been stuck on the West Side Highway a number of times during the rush and it can be a nightmare, and I use it a lot. Outside of rush hour, ok, but during rush hour, definitely would need an HOV lane. When I suggested the HOV lane and them working with the DOT on that and why, they were surprised (either way, in order for any express bus to use the West Side Highway, the  would have to get DOT approval).

Second, the catchment area of the proposed BxM18 is simply too small. The bus would only make ONE Midtown stop by Hudson Yards (it currently makes four Midtown stops, which is where a chunk of the ridership comes from), then come down the West Side and not make any stops Downtown until Chambers St. By doing that, you have alienated a core of the BxM18 ridership who currently uses the BxM18 along 5th and Madison, as well as the people south of 34th St in the Flatiron area, and the QM and BxM riders that transfer to the BxM18. Several of those people (people that work in the Flatiron area) spoke out in opposition to losing their service at the Townhall Meeting. I know the ridership patterns because I've used the line for over 10 years, and so I explained all of this to the  prior to the Townhall Meeting, since they asked me to come in and provide feedback on all of the lines given what riders in my group complained about. When they got there and saw the angry crowd of people, they looked like they wanted to crawl into a hole. lol Mark Holmes did come over and shake my hand, as he was impressed by the turnout, but Craig Cipriano and Jessica Cignarella did not look very comfortable having to sit up front and listen to the complaints and comments. 

They also could not explain what sort of ridership projections they would get from the proposed BxM18. It seemed very experimental, similar to their BxM17 proposal that they eventually dropped. Just not well thought out, so unless you have a sizable crowd getting off in Hudson Yards to replace the lost ridership, the line wouldn't do too well.

The Mount Sinai BxM2 crowd was the most vocal at the meeting, followed by the Lincoln Center crowd who would lose service entirely or have it curtailed. They actually had already circulated a petition among the doctors, RNs and other staff at Mount Sinai, as well as patients that travel there for doctors' appointments. 

As it stands now, with the amount of negative feedback they got, the proposal is shelved until whenever, unless they can re-tool the lines to make it work, which I don't see quite frankly.

 

[R10 2952]

From a rational perspective, they should just have the BxM1 as the designated Eastside-Riverdale route; reroute it to Fifth/Madison away from Lex/Third and it could serve Mount Sinai just fine.  That way the BxM2 could stay on the West Side; no real point in having two services duplicating within two blocks of each other in the east.  If I was trying to get from that part of the Bronx to West Midtown, I definitely wouldn't want to be sitting in traffic on Lexington and East 86th...

As to the BxM18, maybe the proposed plan does need some work; getting off the West Side Highway higher up than Chambers with a few stops added along the route would probably be a good start.  I do think a redesign has potential, though- with current traffic patterns and conditions being what they are, the current routing of the 18 will always struggle to attract downtown ridership.

Of course, all this is assuming we can get back to a non-dystopian state of affairs at some point, if and when this whole coronavirus thing ends...

[Future ENY OP]

2 hours ago, MHV9218 said:

Dunno, I'm not that moved by the speed limits on the avenues. 25mph = 30mph for ticketing. Traffic was pretty much never, ever doing more than 30mph in the past. Park was the only avenue where you could realistically get into the 40s (hypothetically, of course; I would never ever go more than the posted speed limit, officer), and that's passenger traffic only. 10th and 11th could be a speedway as well but again no buses there. 

Remember. 11th Avenue is no longer northbound from 42nd to 57th. Maybe speedway southbound- Downtown, but I’ve seen NYPD and very seldom NYSP patrolling midtown helping out NYPD out.  
 

Park Avenue you could definitely get into the 40’s. However, once u get uptown slowdown. 

[jaf0519]

https://www.amny.com/news/mta-expanding-bus-access-to-fema-vax-sites-from-nycha-and-community-centers/

MTA is apparently adding service to some routes and even creating new routes soon to help get people to COVID vaccine sites.

Article mentions:

• Adding stops and service (Doesn’t say where)
• More service on the B49 to Medgar Evers
• A route between Hammels Houses and York College

Will be online on trip planner by beginning of March

[QM1to6Ave]

23 minutes ago, jaf0519 said:

https://www.amny.com/news/mta-expanding-bus-access-to-fema-vax-sites-from-nycha-and-community-centers/

MTA is apparently adding service to some routes and even creating new routes soon to help get people to COVID vaccine sites.

Article mentions:

• Adding stops and service (Doesn’t say where)
• More service on the B49 to Medgar Evers
• A route between Hammels Houses and York College

Will be online on trip planner by beginning of March

This is like when they added more LIRR service to Citi Field for the vaccination hub's opening, even though they didn't even have any vaccine at that time and the hub was useless LOL. They can barely keep appointments at the existing sites, much less new ones. It will probably be a while before these new sites are filled with appointments, but I guess that gives time to work out the kinks with the expanded MTA service to the sites.

[Lawrence St]

So apparently the only reason why the overnight routes haven't changed the schedules is because it would have to wait until the new spring pick for the route times to change.

[SoSpectacular]

12 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

So apparently the only reason why the overnight routes haven't changed the schedules is because it would have to wait until the new spring pick for the route times to change.

They've put out some of the proposed scheduling changes for the spring pick but it pissed off a lot of the senior operators. They've gone back to the drawing board and there should be some changes made by the 26th. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

5 hours ago, R10 2952 said:

From a rational perspective, they should just have the BxM1 as the designated Eastside-Riverdale route; reroute it to Fifth/Madison away from Lex/Third and it could serve Mount Sinai just fine.  That way the BxM2 could stay on the West Side; no real point in having two services duplicating within two blocks of each other in the east.  If I was trying to get from that part of the Bronx to West Midtown, I definitely wouldn't want to be sitting in traffic on Lexington and East 86th...

As to the BxM18, maybe the proposed plan does need some work; getting off the West Side Highway higher up than Chambers with a few stops added along the route would probably be a good start.  I do think a redesign has potential, though- with current traffic patterns and conditions being what they are, the current routing of the 18 will always struggle to attract downtown ridership.

Of course, all this is assuming we can get back to a non-dystopian state of affairs at some point, if and when this whole coronavirus thing ends...

Yeah on paper and from a rationale perspective, it sounds good, but this is an example where demographics matter. 5th Avenue is an express bus corridor in and of itself.  BxM2 riders want their three stops on 5th Avenue, as they want to have access to Museum Mile and also Central Park West. Riverdale has no East Side subway, hence the need for the BxM1. The BxM1 at one point used to make a stop by Mount Sinai. That sounds like an easy solution, but then you overburden that line with the Mount Sinai riders (people will not want to give up their Lex and 96th St stop for sure - access to the Lex line or other things there). It throws off ridership balance totally (you'd need to add BxM1 service and perhaps decrease BxM2 service, which would make the change pointless) and it chops off any service north of 72nd St. If there was a ridership base there I'd say sure. Some time ago, the BxM2 was more of a totally West Side route. Ridership isn't there, so they re-routed the route the way it is now, which works out well, as people use the stops they added. 5th Av is a different ridership base and technically not east or west, and there is demand there, hence the three BxM2 stops used for a number of reasons, myself included.

I would focus on the congestion before anything. The current BxM2 makes eleven pick-up stops. With the redesign, it would make seven. Catchment area would be too small to have enough ridership.