BUS - Random Thoughts Thread

[JAzumah]

3 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

They are still struggling to cover the trips they have, including on weekends, even though all lines run no more than once or hour or less.

How is that possible?!

[Via Garibaldi 8]

2 minutes ago, JAzumah said:

How is that possible?!

Don't ask me.  I think it's nuts. Some of the drivers out of Spring Creek are part-timers, but still ridiculous. There's no Spring Creek Sunday express bus service at all, so they just need to cover for six days. 

[BreeddekalbL]

19 minutes ago, JAzumah said:

How is that possible?!

 

16 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Don't ask me.  I think it's nuts. Some of the drivers out of Spring Creek are part-timers, but still ridiculous. There's no Spring Creek Sunday express bus service at all, so they just need to cover for six days. 

 

what ever became of that union decertification effort at Spring Creek

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Disabled express bus in the HOV lane on the Gowanus.  Tow truck still hasn't arrived yet... 

[Future ENY OP]

30 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Disabled express bus in the HOV lane on the Gowanus.  Tow truck still hasn't arrived yet... 

Great... extensive delays on the HOV lane to Staten Isl from the Battery Tunnel...  That Gowanus I tell you..

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 hour ago, Future ENY OP said:

Great... extensive delays on the HOV lane to Staten Isl from the Battery Tunnel...  That Gowanus I tell you..

For some reason, it has taken over two hours to get a tow truck there and there are still express buses stuck there. Unreal.

Edited October 13, 2021 by Via Garibaldi 8

[N6 Limited]

24hr bus lanes are unnecessary, if buses run on 60 min headway late night, then what benefit do the lanes provide at that time?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

4 minutes ago, N6 Limited said:

24hr bus lanes are unnecessary, if buses run on 60 min headway late night, then what benefit do the lanes provide at that time?

It makes it very clear that they are bus lanes and it just keeps traffic separate. I've seen it on 5th Av. Very effective. The cars generally stay in their lanes and the buses use the bus lanes. Drivers along Merrick Blvd better be ready because the grace period will only last a few months before tickets are issued if they are in that lane during the hours of operation (6am-7pm).

Edited October 13, 2021 by Via Garibaldi 8

[N6 Limited]

1 minute ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

It makes it very clear that they are bus lanes and it just keeps traffic separate. I've seen it on 5th Av. Very effective. The cars generally stay in their lanes and the buses use the bus lanes. Drivers along Merrick Blvd better be ready because the grace period will only last a few months before tickets are issued if they are in that lane during the hours of operation (6am-7pm).

The grace period is still in effect? Good to know 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Just now, N6 Limited said:

The grace period is still in effect? Good to know 

I believe so. However, I've been speaking with the DOT over the last few years about things like no right turns on 5th Av so that buses can move unimpeded, etc. They've been warming up to such ideas lately to try to really get buses out of vehicular traffic and moving as they should be, unimpeded.

[Future ENY OP]

24 minutes ago, N6 Limited said:

24hr bus lanes are unnecessary, if buses run on 60 min headway late night, then what benefit do the lanes provide at that time?

Pennsylvania Avenue and Kings Highway are two examples that 24 hour bus lanes don't make sense at all. 

The B7 does not run all night and the B82 is on a 60 min headway late night.

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

43 minutes ago, N6 Limited said:

24hr bus lanes are unnecessary, if buses run on 60 min headway late night, then what benefit do the lanes provide at that time?

I would flip this question, and ask what detriment do the lanes provide at that time? On most, if not all of those corridors where there's a 24 hour bus lane, it's not like traffic is that high during overnight hours to begin with. Even places like Woodhaven Boulevard, while not exactly empty at night, vehicles are still zooming up and down the corridor at night with lots of space, even with a 24 hour bus lane. There's no traffic congestion at that hour and all that. Kings Highway tends to be lightly used overnight, and doesn't suffer from any traffic congestion issues (to my knowledge). 

It's a different story if there's no overnight bus service (and there's a 24 hour bus lane), but if the lanes physically there already, and traffic is relatively light at that time to begin with, then there isn't much of any issue there, even if the bus operates every hour. If the traffic lanes can handle vehicular traffic at that time, then I don't see the issue with having bus lanes at that time. Simply feeling some type of way of not being able to drive on any lane one wants is not a legitimate issue. 

Edited October 13, 2021 by BM5 via Woodhaven

[MHV9218]

41 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I believe so. However, I've been speaking with the DOT over the last few years about things like no right turns on 5th Av so that buses can move unimpeded, etc. They've been warming up to such ideas lately to try to really get buses out of vehicular traffic and moving as they should be, unimpeded.

The 5th Avenue lanes (both of them) really do feel like a waste with cars still turning, and so often turning from the second-to-right lane instead of the far right one. Not to mention Ubers and parked cars breaking the rules. As a result you see tons of ops still cruising in the middle lanes, with the righthand lanes empty and traffic backed up as a result. I used to commute on the 5th Ave. bus, so I'm all in favor of bus lanes, but they did it in a really stupid way. I'm not even sure if it's really worth the damage it's done to traffic flow on 5th, especially since so much of the day the lanes are basically empty.

[B35 via Church]

  

2 hours ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

I would flip this question, and ask what detriment do the lanes provide at that time? On most, if not all of those corridors where there's a 24 hour bus lane, it's not like traffic is that high during overnight hours to begin with. Even places like Woodhaven Boulevard, while not exactly empty at night, vehicles are still zooming up and down the corridor at night with lots of space, even with a 24 hour bus lane. There's no traffic congestion at that hour and all that. Kings Highway tends to be lightly used overnight, and doesn't suffer from any traffic congestion issues (to my knowledge). 

It's a different story if there's no overnight bus service (and there's a 24 hour bus lane), but if the lanes physically there already, and traffic is relatively light at that time to begin with, then there isn't much of any issue there, even if the bus operates every hour. If the traffic lanes can handle vehicular traffic at that time, then I don't see the issue with having bus lanes at that time. Simply feeling some type of way of not being able to drive on any lane one wants is not a legitimate issue. 

So, because something can be done, means that it should be done? That's what you're implicating by asking how are they detrimental....

By your logic, let's make all the existing bus lanes in this city 24 hours.... Hell, let's make all the ones in the future 24 hrs. also.... It's not like traffic is high during overnight hours to begin with.....

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

1 hour ago, B35 via Church said:

 So, because something can be done, means that it should be done? That's what you're implicating by asking how are they detrimental....

By your logic, let's make all the existing bus lanes in this city 24 hours.... Hell, let's make all the ones in the future 24 hrs. also.... It's not like traffic is high during overnight hours to begin with.....

That's oversimplifying and misconstruing my position on this. Especially since in that same post, I alluded that I wouldn't necessarily be in favor of a 24/7 lane if no route there operates overnight.  Theres also other overnight routes without 24/7 bus lanes operating in similar traffic conditions to what I described, and I haven't necessarily clamored for those lanes to be 24/7 either. 

The reason I asked how they are detrimental, is because it comes off as if N6 Limited is saying these lanes are supposedly creating issues for motorists (and not just from that post, but from other previous posts of his). If there's a bus lane during a time period of relatively light traffic on that roadway, and if cars and other vehicles can move smoothly and with virtually no impact, then I don't see what's there to be worked up about. I'm not against having dedicated bus lanes at those hours. You may disagree with that and that's fine, but that is not exactly the same as me saying that we should make every bus lane 24/7 just for the sake of it. 

Edited October 14, 2021 by BM5 via Woodhaven

[B35 via Church]

1 hour ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

That's oversimplifying and misconstruing my position on this. Especially since in that same post, I alluded that I wouldn't necessarily be in favor of a 24/7 lane if no route there operates overnight.  Theres also other overnight routes without 24/7 bus lanes operating in similar traffic conditions to what I described, and I haven't necessarily clamored for those lanes to be 24/7 either. 

The reason I asked how they are detrimental, is because it comes off as if N6 Limited is saying these lanes are supposedly creating issues for motorists (and not just from that post, but from other previous posts of his). If there's a bus lane during a time period of relatively light traffic on that roadway, and if cars and other vehicles can move smoothly and with virtually no impact, then I don't see what's there to be worked up about. I'm not against having dedicated bus lanes at those hours. You may disagree with that and that's fine, but that is not exactly the same as me saying that we should make every bus lane 24/7 just for the sake of it. 

You question n6's question as to how they're beneficial, by asking how are they detrimental.... But here though, you're professing that you haven't necessarily clamored for 24/7 bus lanes operating in the traffic conditions you brought up.... To that I would question well, why not (clamor for them) - since your premise is that 24/7 bus lanes aren't detrimental, especially considering your supporting arguments....

What I'm ultimately getting at is, if there's no need for a 24/7 bus lane, then why should 24/7 bus lanes be implemented exactly? Because they're not detrimental? Their mere existence isn't really a reason that they should be in effect 24/7.... While IDK whatever n6 has said in other threads regarding this (or a similar) issue that you allude to, but within this thread, I get the sense he's questioning the necessity of 24/7 bus lanes...

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

2 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

You question n6's question as to how they're beneficial, by asking how are they detrimental.... But here though, you're professing that you haven't necessarily clamored for 24/7 bus lanes operating in the traffic conditions you brought up.... To that I would question well, why not (clamor for them) - since your premise is that 24/7 bus lanes aren't detrimental, especially considering your supporting arguments....

What I'm ultimately getting at is, if there's no need for a 24/7 bus lane, then why should 24/7 bus lanes be implemented exactly? Because they're not detrimental? Their mere existence isn't really a reason that they should be in effect 24/7.... While IDK whatever n6 has said in other threads regarding this (or a similar) issue that you allude to, but within this thread, I get the sense he's questioning the necessity of 24/7 bus lanes...

The existing 24/7 lanes with overnight routes aren't detrimental for much of anyone. However, you would need to look at other lanes individually to see whether that makes sense or not.

Also, it's not simply about the detriment part. For one, I believe buses should be provided as much dedicated space where possible and feasible (including overnights), granted that the route operates during set periods and that it doesn't negatively impact other motorists during very light traffic periods. Again, you can disagree with that, but that's my stance on it. 

Additionally, the problem I have (even with that interpretation of N6's statement) is when that's put into context. Woodhaven Boulevard (which has such lanes) has three to four regular travel lanes for most of the corridor, which handle overnight volume without much of an issue. Traffic would still be able to move well even if only two lanes existed, so like how much more space do you need? Similar thing with the segments of Kings Highway that has a 24/7 bus lane (with lighter volumes than Woodhaven, and with two regular lanes + one left turn lane). 

Edited October 14, 2021 by BM5 via Woodhaven

[B35 via Church]

2 hours ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

The existing 24/7 lanes with overnight routes aren't detrimental for much of anyone. However, you would need to look at other lanes individually to see whether that makes sense or not.

Also, it's not simply about the detriment part. For one, I believe buses should be provided as much dedicated space where possible and feasible (including overnights), granted that the route operates during set periods and that it doesn't negatively impact other motorists during very light traffic periods. Again, you can disagree with that, but that's my stance on it. 

Additionally, the problem I have (even with that interpretation of N6's statement) is when that's put into context. Woodhaven Boulevard (which has such lanes) has three to four regular travel lanes for most of the corridor, which handle overnight volume without much of an issue. Traffic would still be able to move well even if only two lanes existed, so like how much more space do you need? Similar thing with the segments of Kings Highway that has a 24/7 bus lane (with lighter volumes than Woodhaven, and with two regular lanes + one left turn lane). 

The thought process of looking at other lanes individually would never come into play, if the core position that's being presented is that buses should be provided as much dedicated space as possible... The former of the two statements exudes a certain seed of doubt...

 

Edited October 14, 2021 by B35 via Church

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

12 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

The thought process of looking at other lanes individually would never come into play, if the core position that's being presented is that buses should be provided as much dedicated space as possible... The former of the two statements exudes a certain seed of doubt...

 

The two aren't contradictory statements though. You can be for allocating as much space as possible & feasible and making sure said lanes don't create issues during time periods when it absolutely shouldn't. I applied that same thought process (of looking at each case individually) with the Woodhaven Boulevard and Kings Highway examples. The lane is already there (so it is possible by default) and based on how it has virtually no impact on traffic, it's feasible to have late at night, meeting both conditions. 

Edited October 14, 2021 by BM5 via Woodhaven

[B35 via Church]

2 hours ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

The two aren't contradictory statements though. You can be for allocating as much space as possible & feasible and making sure said lanes don't create issues during time periods when it absolutely shouldn't. I applied that same thought process (of looking at each case individually) with the Woodhaven Boulevard and Kings Highway examples. The lane is already there (so it is possible by default) and based on how it has virtually no impact on traffic, it's feasible to have late at night, meeting both conditions. 

Not necessarily contradictory, just not as sound as you're conveying your position to be (which is more what I'm objecting, than your general position itself)....

The 24/7 bus lanes during overnight hours not being detrimental doesn't somehow nullify n6's questioning of their beneficiality, or even justify the necessity of them.... Yes, the lanes have essentially no impact on traffic - because there isn't much traffic during those hours to begin with!

I find this little side discussion interesting though, because I haven't heard or read anywhere (up until this point anyway), where anyone has clamored for, or literally supported bus lanes being in effect, during a timeframe (overnights) when the benefit of doing as such, would loom rather minimal.... Learn something everyday.

Edited October 14, 2021 by B35 via Church

[Via Garibaldi 8]

20 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

Not necessarily contradictory, just not as sound as you're conveying your position to be (which is more what I'm objecting, than your general position itself)....

The 24/7 bus lanes during overnight hours not being detrimental doesn't somehow nullify n6's questioning of their beneficiality, or even justify the necessity of them.... Yes, the lanes have essentially no impact on traffic - because there isn't much traffic during those hours to begin with!

I find this little side discussion interesting though, because I haven't heard or read anywhere (up until this point anyway), where anyone has clamored for, or literally supported bus lanes being in effect when the benefit of doing as such would loom rather minimal.... Learn something everyday.

The DOT's position in speaking with them about these bus lanes in the meetings I have been in (I've been involved with Hylan Blvd bus lane project and 5th Av busway project) has been to leave them in operation for as long as possible where possible to prioritize getting buses to move faster, so if they don't have to pull into traffic or wait for cars to pass by, then that means they save time, as that tends to be where buses are slowed down the most. Now, yes there is less traffic at night to impede their progress of pulling out of stops, etc., but they are not looking at how frequent the bus runs. They have been looking at a number of ways to sort of isolate buses so that can move unimpeded. That's really the focus. They tried out a few bus bulbs as well with bus lanes so that the buses would not have to even pull in or out of stops. They would stay right in the bus lane the entire time. They've also been trying to demarcate bus lanes better, with the bright red paint, etc.

Something else I will mention... The  has been pushing hard for more bus lanes, but the DOT does not always agree to what the  wants. For example, they have been asking for no right turns along 5th Avenue for certain stretches in Midtown, and so far the DOT has resisted this request (this may change though, as I have mentioned it to them in at least one meeting), but doing so would mean the buses having to interact with far fewer cars in the bus lane trying to complete turns.

The plan long-term is to have bus lanes enforced via cameras to stop cars from abusing them entirely, to again allow buses to move unimpeded without cars in the way, unless they have to do something like make a turn. Not too long ago, they had the Clear Curb program to run cars out of bus stops and the like, but they quietly cut that program.

Edited October 14, 2021 by Via Garibaldi 8

[Calvin]

I heard that somewhere around January 2022 (the start of the winter session), the Bx39 will move to Gun Hill. No route from Gun Hill will head to West Farms. My guess is that MTA is finding the right depot for this route to see which depot is closer when in deadhead. 

Edited October 15, 2021 by Calvin

[N6 Limited]

On 10/13/2021 at 5:24 PM, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I believe so. However, I've been speaking with the DOT over the last few years about things like no right turns on 5th Av so that buses can move unimpeded, etc. They've been warming up to such ideas lately to try to really get buses out of vehicular traffic and moving as they should be, unimpeded.

Manhattan is based on a grid system of mostly one way streets, there are already enough 'no turn' intersections in midtown. No right turns on 5th Ave is going to make it even more crazy. Wasn't that part of the reason they have two bus lanes on 5th Ave?

[Cait Sith]

51 minutes ago, N6 Limited said:

Manhattan is based on a grid system of mostly one way streets, there are already enough 'no turn' intersections in midtown. No right turns on 5th Ave is going to make it even more crazy. Wasn't that part of the reason they have two bus lanes on 5th Ave?

Largely.

In the last update of the 5th Avenue Busway, 55th and 45th would be the two streets to turn right onto. 47th, 49th & 51st would be restricted. South of 45th would remain unchanged.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

59 minutes ago, N6 Limited said:

Manhattan is based on a grid system of mostly one way streets, there are already enough 'no turn' intersections in midtown. No right turns on 5th Ave is going to make it even more crazy. Wasn't that part of the reason they have two bus lanes on 5th Ave?

The double bus lanes are often useless on 5th because every other block, you have cars that have to come into the bus lane to turn onto a side street and the side streets can become backed up. If I recall correctly, no right turns may be planned for the latest proposal. That has been a complaint of the  and something I have observed many mornings pre-COVID since I work on 5th Av, so we had a discussion about it in a meeting I had with the  and DOT about how we could remedy that problem.